Just a piece of paper???

[firebirdgold]

How many of you or your fi''s feel like my fi?
When fi and I discussed Mexico as an alternative to Hawaii and how it wasn''t logistically possible for us to be legally married there, fi said we should just sign the paperwork here afterwards. That the legally binding marriage license is just a piece of paper and simply meant that we were married in the eyes of the government and did I really care about that? Tax purposes, etc etc... He said that what made us married would be the ceremony where we exchange vows, not the legal and civil bits.
Mind you, he''s not at all religious. In fact I think he''s a little allergic to organized religions which is a not uncommon side effect of jesuit high-school.

So it''s not like he thinks the most important thing is being married in the eyes of God. (This is a whole different argument... er.. discussion, but he''s agreed to a non-denominational minister and traditional style vows.)

I guess, like my sister, he feels that the vows we exchange and the commitment we make is what makes us married to each other, not a legal document. So I was wondering how many other people feel like this? Perhaps this is the modern prevailing attitude towards marriage? I know in many other countries two wedding ceremonies, a religious one followed by a civil one, is totally the norm.

As you can probably tell, I''m not overly comfortable with this idea. I don''t want to have two different ceremonies separated by days where I''m not really Mrs. fi. When I exchange vows with him I want it to be legally binding across the whole globe! It''s not just a piece of paper that only matters to our government, if it was then why does the gay and lesbian community so desperately want the right to it? I rather doubt it''s because of taxes.

 

[AmberWaves]

I agree with you, Indie. Luckly, my FI does too, (I guess the Jesuit high school MINE went to was a better brainwasher!

) because he wants our ceremony and reception and all that to mean something. I''m the less religious of the two of us, though. I wasn raised agnostic, so the ceremony and all that is in his hands. Lucky him.

 

[sumbride]

Well, the most important thing here is you''re not comfortable with it, so who really cares what others do. I''m rather with you on the wanting the ceremony to be legal, but I can see how logistics can foul things up. And as far as being "official" instantly, don''t you have to file your signed marriage license first to be official? That takes at least a day.

The wedding I just went to was "in the eyes of God". They had no intention of filing any paperwork because of some legal and financial reasons, but we all consider them married. For them, they just had to figure out what was most important. In their case, it was "just a piece of paper" but a piece of paper that would have cancelled all his disability payments from the US Navy.

I personally don''t consider it just a piece of paper, but the situation can be different for everyone. If you want to have the ceremony in Mexico and then a civil ceremony later, you know it''s really routine to do this, and it is "ok", but if it isn''t ok with you than keep looking for a better option!

 

[codex57]

Whether you like it or not, it IS just a piece of paper that affects your legal rights. Just cuz you have that paper doesnt mean your marriage will have fidelity, support and all those nice things you vow to do during a ceremony. It just means when going to court or whatever, there are set procedures that grant you certain things automatically that simply being bf and gf dont. When others see you at the ceremony, theyre not going to ask if you signed the legal document yet.

Gay and lesbian community want it partially for taxes. Its for a whole bunch of things. Most importantly is the symbolic meaning of marriage. The thing you view it as. However, the symbolic thing is tied to the legal stuff. By not being legally married, the G&L crowd doesnt automatically get a lot of "protections" and benefits that married people get. Sure they might get it in one state, but if the other state has a law outlawing gay marriages, they might not get it there. It is basically a legal and constitutional muddle right now in that area of law which is why they are fighting for it. If they can get it, they can settle it across the country and be the same as straight couples in all ways. Symbolically AND legally.

If you cant make that mental separation, its no big deal. Just let your FI know and see if you can come up with some compromise. Guys tend to have a more detached view of symbolic things. Girls call it cold, guys call it practical. Its just another Mars vs. Venus thing.

 

[Maria D]

I''m with your fiance.

You are married when you exchange your vows in front of witnesses and the rest is legal paperwork.

Think of a baby being born. The birthdate is not when the birth certificate is filed, is it? The birth certificate is just a legal record. Same with the marriage certificate. Your marriage will be legally binding across the globe by virtue of the piece of paper. If you want the legal marriage to be in place at the same moment that the vows (the true marriage, in my mind) are exchanged, why not sign the papers *before* you get married in Mexico.

That''s what my husband and I did when we got married. We wanted to be married in Mass. by a friend that was only certified to perform marriages in NY. So we signed the papers in NY a week before being married in MA.

I''m not sure I understand your argument about gays/lesbians. They are fighting for legal marriage for legal purposes...legal next of kin being one of them. They want the same things that your fiance wants, both the legal paperwork *and* the ceremonial exchange of vows. Since it''s not like your fiance is saying that he just wants to exchange vows and skip the legalities, what''s the problem?

 

[MelissaSue]

i am just really confused about all this.. "signing papers" and what not.. I get the point of the whole topic.. but if you get married in mexico.. and sign the papers here.. don''t you have to have a civil ceremony here as well? the person who "marries you" has to sign it.. along with witnesses.. People keep saying.. "just sign the papers".. but isn''t there a whole other step? Mind you.. I know nothing about ceremonies in other countries.. but people do them all the time.. there must be ways around this..

 

[Mara]

you could get married in a civil service right before going to mexico and then do the ceremony out there and you will already be married when you go on your honeymoon etc.

personally i wanted us to do it in a place where it was legal and it was the ''ceremony'' of it all. i wasn''t into doing civil before or after. but it''s a totally personal thing.

IMO if he feels ambivalent about it and you feel strongly about being married when you are actually married, then i would try to find a way to make it happen.

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 8/24/2006 1:22:07 PM
Author: Mara
you could get married in a civil service right before going to mexico and then do the ceremony out there and you will already be married when you go on your honeymoon etc.

I don't think of it as "just a piece of paper" ... and wouldn't feel comfortable having a ceremony and then following it up with "the legal stuff" ... but I WOULD be okay with the way Mara suggested it ... do a quickie "City Hall" type thing BEFORE you leave for the Mexican fiesta/Ceremony. That way ... when IT's done, it's DONE! And you can relax on your honeymoon.


ETA: when we were thinking about Italy - my parents were hilariously worried about it "being legal" & such. They outright said that if it wasn't LEGAL they weren't contributing. And that they weren't contributing to an "Elopement". I just laughed. It's their $$ ... whatEVER. Like this whole "wedding" thing was an elaborate scam to get $$$.

 

[Maria D]

Date: 8/24/2006 1:18:22 PM
Author: MelissaSue
i am just really confused about all this.. ''signing papers'' and what not.. I get the point of the whole topic.. but if you get married in mexico.. and sign the papers here.. don''t you have to have a civil ceremony here as well? the person who ''marries you'' has to sign it.. along with witnesses.. People keep saying.. ''just sign the papers''.. but isn''t there a whole other step? Mind you.. I know nothing about ceremonies in other countries.. but people do them all the time.. there must be ways around this..

In our case, the person who ended up marrying us in MA signed the paperwork for us in NY. We didn''t have an actual "ceremony," but I do remember our friend asking us the stock questions and we did have a couple of friends sign as "witnesses." They were not the real best man and maid of honor we had later in the real ceremony. But you''re right MelissaSue, it''s not just "signing papers." I imagine, in the absence of knowing someone who could perform marriage services, you''d have to go to City Hall and have a civil ceremony.

I can''t even remember the date on my marriage certificate; we celebrate our anniversary on the day of our vow exchanges.

 

[aljdewey]

Now would be a good place to point out that the "ceremony" in the phrase "civil ceremony" is a bit more elaborate than the actuality.

My husband was married at city hall in his first marriage. They stood at the clerk''s counter and answered a few questions each....and they were then pronounced husband and wife with not much pomp or ceremony at all. It wasn''t a whole lot different than applying for a building permit.

 

[firebirdgold]

Hhmm, doing it before hand does sound much better to me.

I wasn''t comfortable with the idea of doing it a week later or something. I also felt like he was saying being legally married wasn''t important to him. Which isn''t really true, just that it''s not the paper but our vows to each other that will make us joined couple for the rest of our lives.

As far as the gay thing, I was referring to all the rights that come with being legally married: access and decision-making rights in case of accident or illness, sharing medical insurance, joint property ownership, etc.. There''s a whole host of rights that goes with being legally married that may not be terribly important most of the time, but if something goes wrong they become extremely important.

 

[Tybee]

Hi Indie~

I agree with your fiance.
But when it comes down to it YOU need to feel comfortable.

In my opinion, it is honestly JUST a piece of paper. Your vows, your ceremony, your promises to each other,
THATS a marriage. I loved what Codex said about that... so I won''t restate it.

I feel very sensitive about it, because so many of my dearest friends are gay and lesbian. That piece of paper gives you VERY important rights, responsibilities, and priveledges--- those priveledges are denied to a great many devoted couples out there---- but your commitment to each other and your agreements to stay faithful, those are shared in your wedding ceremony. I don''t think that doing a civil ceremony before the event would lessen the specialness of your day at all--- but that''s just my opinion.