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Katrina - What Went Right

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perry

perry

Ideal_Rock
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Lets take a more positive approach and start telling each other about what did go right - and how much it made a difference.

For starters I have 3 ideas of things that really went right.

1) The Hurricane warning system. It gave prompt warning and 2 days time for the vast majority of the people in the area to evacuate (estimated at 80%). Immagine how much worse if we had no warning.

2) The Prepositioning of general relief workers for the Hurricane. Not much is talked about this, but it was known that Katrina was going to be "bad" and about 5000 relief people and hundreds of trucks of relief supplies were prepositioned on short notice to Texas, Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama, so that they could deploy in less than a day from their locations after the actual area of damage was known. A predeployment on this scale had never been done before (and a predeployment had only been done once before). Katrina did cause a lot more damage than expected such that no one really noticed just how fast the response was to the boundry areas that the relief crews go to first. How much worse would it have been if these people were 2 days later than they were (average response time).

3) Waterford Nuclear Plant (in the middle of the worst of the disaster zone). Notice, none of you have heard a peep about it. Safely shutdown without any safety issues, core and spent fuel cooling was never interupted when offsite power was lost (and the fuel generates heat for years and must be constantly cooled for years). Dispite many press stories - and a recent "Made for TV" movie about all the hazzards and how capriciously on the edge things would be in a Hurricane... (what a bunch of cr...). The fact is that the plant was designed for a catagory 5 direct hit without loosing control or damaging any critical building or system. It did loose all offsite power (if the power lines even exist anymore), but they were designed for that as well. There is one issue on communication here. All normal means of communicating with the state and federal agencies were lost (important should there actually be a problem). However, Waterford is able to communicate its status via other means to the NRC and state civil defense agencies. I am sure that all nuclear facilities will have to upgrade their emergency communication systems within a year (do I forsee satilight phones and ham radios and ham radio operators at each station- yes). I am sure the operators are working attrocious hours, and have to deal with their homes being destroyed and family issues as well - but the plant is OK with no issues. I am sure that it will restart when things get restored enough outside of the plant for it to restart (I do note that the NRC must approve restart. They did issue a bullitin prior to Katrina hitting that they would review the status of any plant that shut down due to Katrina to ensure that it was safe to operate, and then approve its restart if they felt it was OK).


What else has gone right. I''m sure a buch of you have other things that have gone right.

Perry
 
Perry....thanks for the interesting post. It is nice to hear that some things did go right, but it''s hard to appreciate in light of the horror and dispair we''ve all been witnessing these last days.

I think one thing a lot of people find so appalling is that there was no system set up when the evacuation order came to help those citizens who didn''t have any way to get out. Was it you who said in another thread that sending in buses for the needier people would have been impossible? (Sorry...I''m too lazy to look it up...) I just find it hard to believe that with better planning there couldn''t have been some way more people could have been helped to get away before the storm hit...

Anyway....I do appreciate all your interesting and informative posts.

widget
 
I think it is very important to post about what went right, perry, but not because we have any obligation to be grateful. I think that if our sights are set on preventing future disasters of this magnitude that we must list the things that were done right (to be sure they are done every time there is a disaster) as well as the things that were done inadequately, to prevent those things from recurring every time there is a disaster.

Good posting. I hope FEMA is making a to-do list for managing future disasters. I am thinking about when the big earthquake hits California. Homeland Security should be thinking about possible terrorist attacks. Let''s identify areas at risk so that risk can be minimized.

Deborah
 
Great post, Perry. Absolutely need those kudos where they are due.

Shay
 
Perry,
I join those in saying great post and thread.
 
that''s good stuff Perry.

We all seem to naturally prefer bad news.
But as a frequent visitor to your shores, one can not help noticing the extreme inequalities that exist there. Even India, where the rich are very rich and the poor much poorer, does not seem to have the problems we ''feel'' when in USA compared to India. I think this hurricane will bring some of that tension to the surface; who knows, it might also be a good thing?
 
Here''s something that''s going right....the generosity of American people.

I spotted these kids today on the way into town. Had to go back home to get my camera and of course, buy some lemonade!!
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widget

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Date: 9/4/2005 7:11:18 PM
Author: widget
Here''s something that''s going right....the generosity of American people.
...
I spotted these kids today on the way into town. Had to go back home to get my camera and of course, buy some lemonade!!
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Click to expand...

Adorable! That should go to a newspaper!

Deb
 
yeah kids! that''s the american way.
 
Date: 9/4/2005 3:11:00 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
that''s good stuff Perry.

We all seem to naturally prefer bad news.
But as a frequent visitor to your shores, one can not help noticing the extreme inequalities that exist there. Even India, where the rich are very rich and the poor much poorer, does not seem to have the problems we ''feel'' when in USA compared to India. I think this hurricane will bring some of that tension to the surface; who knows, it might also be a good thing?
Click to expand...

Garry makes a good point. For my job, I have been trained in Critical Incident Stress Debriefing, a method to help groups of people deal with the effects of a crisis/disaster/trauma.
Near the end of the process, participants are asked to identify anything positive that might be a result of the situation (ie. following 9/11, for the most part our country joined together in a spirit of patriotism). So maybe Garry is right: this situation will make us look at and address some issues that go far beyond the actual issue of storm preparedness.
 
Date: 9/2/2005 10:10:58 PM
Author:perry
and a recent ''Made for TV'' movie about all the hazzards and how capriciously on the edge things would be in a Hurricane... (what a bunch of cr...).
Perry
Click to expand...

That film you mentioned.. wasnt Atom Storm or somthing was it? It was shown a few months ago... couldnt stop a laughing at it. Made you wonder if the makers had ever seen a nuclear plant... with some thing at the bottom of a swimming pool
 
Lord Summerisle:

That film you mentioned.. wasnt Atom Storm or somthing was it? It was shown a few months ago... couldnt stop a laughing at it. Made you wonder if the makers had ever seen a nuclear plant... with some thing at the bottom of a swimming pool


It's not so funny if you have to explain to people over and over again everytime it gets shown that it's nothing more than Pure Hokum...

There have been numerous other things on TV and in the movies. There was some silly series within the last year about terriorest melting down cores and causing huge disaster areas - remotely (and with the ability to melt down other plants remotely as well). Where do these people get this stuff from? No connection with reality at all. There is not a single plant control system that is connected to any thing else: They are all stand alone independent systems. There are internet connection to plant worker workstation computers (like my work computer) - and are even able to read plant status and instrument readings at some plants - but there are no outside links of any kind to any of the contol functions.

Even should a core meltdown occur in a Western Style reactor -- the chance for any significant radiation release to the public is exteemly small and would take another major series of multiple failures (the "West" put their reactors inside containment buildings - just in case: and the containment building is actually the third barrier preventing radiation release from a core meltdown; even with a core meltdown the second barrier would have to be breached before the third barrier ever came into play. In every "design basis" accident for a western nuclear plant 2 of the 3 barriers are expected to stay intact and should not be threatened by the resulting accident conditions).

Someone, a former "nuclear worker" recently published how a terriorist group could gain access to the control room, having detailed plant specific information on which switches to throw and which controls to manipulate in the exact order, and melt down a core in 20 minutes soley because they were in the control room and nothing could be done to stop them in time (afterall they would only need 20 minutes to have a melted core, and no one could do anything because they did not have access to the control room). Hogwash. Pure Hogwash.

I will not deny that a core cannot be melted - just not in the scenerio presented: Three Mile Island was a core meltdown - and one of the big lessons learned by the industry was that when things go wrong keep your friggin hands off the controls and let the automatics take over and put the core and core cooling into a safe mode; there are backups upon backups upon backups to do that (and these systems were built with the assumption of a major reactor coolant line break). Don't even begin any trouble shooting and control manipulation, except for pressing the "trip" buttons, until the core is safe. Even with the direct interfearance by the operators at Three Mile Island in the face of a real problem that they did not understand (a stuck open relief valve that was causing the loss of core cooling water) - it was many hours into the event before the core actually started melting.

Now there were a lot of other lessons learned as well, and it greatly affected how all other plants were run and designed - and all Western stlye plant did a lot of modifications to improve instrumentation (now we will directly see things that the 3 Mile Opeators did not know and were guessing at).

Yes, there was some radiaion release at Three Mile Island (radioctive gasses that could not be procdessed because the radioative gas system was overloaded). There is considerable debate about how much it was because it was below the normal range of the measuring instrumentations arround the plant (and some people seem to think that just because it was not reliably measrued - that it can't be quantified). However, if you put a diamond of unknown size on a scale, and the scale cannot measure it - you know that it is very small. To put things into perspective. If you fly across half the country once (Say Chicago to New York, Florida, or Denver) you will recieve more radiation dose than anyone could have recieved arround Three Mile Island.

For those reading this and wondering about terriorest taking over a control room.... One of the design basis accidents is loss of the control room (fire or other things) which includes the concept that switches will be shorting out and changing position. All Nuclear facilities are designed to be safely shutdown under that scenerio (remember, backups upon backups upon backups). Then there are the huge number of security, law enforcement, and plant personnel who would respond (you think they havn't planned to retake the plant). While the control room might be lost (it is afteral designed to keep anyone from breaking into it), I suspect that the rest of the plant would be back into plant hands in minutes.

Even the most famous film "The China Syndrome" is based on a false scenerio. I actually watched that movie in a movie theater when it came out, before I knew anything about nuclear plants at all. However, I did know basic steam plant fundementals (I was in the Navy then, conventional steam propulsion - which is essentially the same as a power plant except we turned a propeller and they turn a generator) and looked at the film and said to myself and my friends "That cannot be - what they showed as their scenerio and equipment involved cannot be." Years late I found out how right I was.

Now I will not deny that there are issues with nuclear power, there are (mostly in my mind with long term dispsoal of the fuel). Just that I have never seen a credible meltdown disaster scenerio postulated by TV, the Movies, or other press for western style power reactors.

Chernobly was not in a containment building, and had a different reactor design with an "inherently unstable" operating point - and the reactor engineers decided to perform an "experiment" for something that the plant was specifically not designed to do at the "inherently unstable" operating point. In fact, the operating manual for the plant specifically directed that if you were at that "inherently unstable" operatiing point to quickly do either 1 of 2 things; both actions would very quickly get you out of that operating point. No western syle power reactor has an inherently unstable operating point - western reactors were designed to be inherently stable at all power levels.

Oh yeh, for those who did not know. I do work in a nuclear power plant (these last 4 years or so). I am not an operator, and my main job is to monitor the health of a series of important plant heat exchangers. Everyting from the Main Condenser where turbine exhaust steam gets condensed back into water to be pumped back into the steam cycle, oil coolers, to accident fan coolers in contaiment - which are there "just in case" of a totally main steam line rupture (pipe completely breaking off) that would fill containment with lots of steam very fast (actually, this is just one of three completely independent systems was designed to adequatly contain and condense the high pressure steam - only one of these sytems would have to work to ensure a safe shutdown with no significant equipment damage - other than the main steam line). Of course, most steam lines start leaking long before they break off (we don't ignore steam leaks). But we, like all nuke plants, are desined for all the "Worst case" scenerios. 3 independent sytems that work 3 different ways designed to handle one worst case event that is highly unlikely. Each of these sysetems has redundency built in. For example there are 4 accident fan coolers (the heat exchangers I monitor). It only takes 2 of them to do the job should none of the other sytems work at all (and those other systems have similar redundancy to ensure that they would work if needed). Get the picture; backup on backup on backup. Should the event ever happen we could have 6 times the capacity needed to handle the event automatically kick in. Perfect, probably not; But I and many thousands of other people have tried to find holes in the system (and are encouraged to find such holes).

Of course, the first group of the plants were designed arround 1960 technology and with 1960 concepts. There have been a few issues identified since that are in fact potentially significant (like fire). Plants have had to do modifications or come up with compensatory actions to limit the effects (often by adding people so that people are on hand to deal with that issue if it ever comes up). Maintenatenance of the complicaed backup upon backup upon backup systems has also required increased plant staffs. The newer plant designs are so much better, very much more inherently safer and simpler. Complexity has a price and inherent risk as well. The Nuclear industry has really learned that cost.

For those who wonder how I could know so much not beign a plant opeator: They train the heck out of us on design basis, plant and system design, and basic operation principals. Simple rule: Almost everyone at the plant recieves training, training, training, and more training... (except I believe the custodial staff).

Oh, and I should mention the emergency plans and facilities in place.... Drill, drill, drill, and drill some more....

Perry
 
sorry, didnt mean to upset you Perry. was wondering, having seen one of the many nuclear plant disater made for TV films around, and just the one you mentioned sounded similar to the one you spoke of...

also other like atomic train... I took a trip to one of the UK Nuc stations, Haysum i think, nr Morcombe, outside the visitor centre theres one of the containers they use to transport the waste from the plant,

Like this:
10259.jpg


thats been, umm crash tested. placed on a test track and had a freight train hit it at around 100mph - the top speed of freight at the time. they found the container several 100 yards down the field - only had a few fins bent.
 
Lord Summerisle:

I guess sooner or later someone was going to set me off. When I took the job 4 1/2 years ago I was a real sceptic about nuclear safety. Now I see just how complete the intial designs of the plants were - and how the industry has learned from other issues that came up during the 70's and 80's.

You are right about the shipping containers. I can't think of a single manmade transportation disaster that could significantly affect them or the used fuel inside.

I'm not saying something could not go wrong at a plant. Of course it can. I just don't see anything going wrong that hasn't been planned for and that we don't know how to adequately contain (at least for western style reactors).

The very basis of our job descriptions is to "protect the health and safety of the public." This actually is job 1, and I have no doubt that if I saw a significant issue affecting any safety related equipment - that I would not be taken seriously and that the equipment would be decared out of service untill investigated and resolved (I have actually done so once). Now if a plant shutdown was required due to that - it would happen (but with redundent equipment and systems, this is rare: but I have seen this done when questions were raised about the ability of one set of equipment ts ability to perform adequtely. It actually was OK - it would have performed it's design function, but repairs at that time would not hurt either as it was showing signs of degradation; so the plant was kept off line 11 days for repairs).

Concerning our emergency plans and drills. The drill scenerios usually start with a credible event (equipment failure, fire, etc) and then progress with injected mistakes and complexity until something undesired happens (one of the three barriers fails). Then, to fully exercise the worst case scenerios where the public would be threatened the drill controllers will inject an "unexplained" failure of one or more of the other key barriers to major radiation and contamination release to the atmosphere. I have never seen a realistic explanation for these other failures of the key barriers (especially contaiment), we are just told for example "contaiment has just cracked, with a 100 Cubic Foot per second release". Even after 9-11 and the postulated deliberate crash of a fully loaded major airliner into directly into contaiment - did not result in containment failure when it was analyzed. But we drill all the time on the basis that somehow the fuel cladding fails, the RCS boundry fails, and containment fails... and we still usually protect the health and safety of the public within published guidelines. However, "just in case" the US nuclear industry is sitting on a multi-mega billion dollar disaster fund for cleanup and property replacment should the worst case ever happen (this money is in the bank and earning interest). Complete with with special legal exemptions to allow work to be done and generous fast payouts without a zillion lawers slowing things down from numerous lawsuits (the lawyers loose out should there ever be such a disaster in the US).

It is also interesting to note that only the USA has heavily armed security forces and barriers at their nuclear power plants. Canada started on a program of adopting US style nuclear plant security a year or so ago. Britian annonced in August (last month) that they would just now start to have permanently stationed security personnel at the nuclear plants. France has had something for years - but I'm told much less security than the US. In much of the world you can drive your car (or a truck) right up to the plant and walk in. At best, they might have an industrial type fence.

Yet, here in the US there are extreem measures and a minor army at each nuclear plant (and have been for decades). Truthfullly, many of the people on this board would not pass the security screening process for unescorted access either as it is very strict (about 1 out of 2 people applying for work pass - and they usually know about the screening process up front). It hurts too when various groups and some politicians say that we are in danger. The nuclear power plants in the US are the most hardened and most secure non-miliary facilities in existance - and in many cases are more secure and hardened better than many military facilities.

Anyway, I guess I needed to get that off my chest too.

Off course, I do have to admit that every plant has a weakest point somewhere. Everything has a weakest point somewhere. So theoretically someone who knew the exact weakest point for a plant could target that point and hope to inflict damage or break in. I'm not talking about the 2 plants I have detailed inside knowledge on - and I don't know anyone else who will talk either: We don't even talk much amoung ourselves about it (although I am told that the licensed operators talk aboiut such scenerios). But, I know that these points and issues are known - and am sure that there are plans in place...


Perry
 
Just thought I''d bump this back to the original thread title...... good news, some 60 countries as well as international organisations are offering to help with the recovery, sending aid and donations. Greece has offered personnel and 2 cruise ships to serve as refugee shelters, Uk donated 1/2 million military ration packages , Kuwait donates $500 million and most US states coming together with donations.

Perhaps most humbling, many countries severely affected by the Tsunami have also offered aid even when they are still recovering themselves.
 
Wow that is humbling mightyred. Such kindness and generousity. That makes me smile.
 
Thanks'' mightyred.

That''s more what this thread was meant for.

Sorry folks if I go off taget a bit.

Perry
 
that is wonderful! it is always heart warming when people show their concern. thanks for posting that. banjo
 
More good news and altruism:

A local (San Diego) businessman, David Perez, was frustrated and felt helpless at the lack of response last week so he opened up his own wallet, started chartering jets to the affected areas, and has been flying people out and supplies in. He''s flown folks to various locations in TX, CA, etc, and is hosting a group of 82 here in San Diego--first night at a school shelter, and this week at the Hyatt downtown. He''s committed to assisting for up to 9 months with setting them up with jobs, schooling-needs, and places to live, etc.....now that he has the ball rolling, he''s working w/ the Red Cross, etc., but it''s pretty darn impressive for just a random person to give so generously. From today''s paper:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050907/news_7m7families.html
 
this may have been posted already- but- already $200 million has been donated from personal funds! i think that''s incredible!
 
I was just watching the news and they showed pics of the US National Guard helping the elderly and children. One pics showed a soldier holding a little girls hand and then she reached up to him for a hug. They also showed pics rescuing a little boy and his doggie. Just touched my heart that our military shows so much compassion and gentleness towards the ones they are trying to help and was even willing to resue a dog
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Ya gotta love the Aussies. They truly have a generous soul.
 
don''t know if this is the right place to post this or not....

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/photos/
 
I don''t have a link to the story but I am sure many of the animal lovers here saw the news about a doctor who stayed behind at a hospital and also agreed to look after peoples pets - mainly dogs but a few cats and even a hamster! He was almost at the point of giving up when a helicopter rescue came to get him but then it crashed (everyone fortunately was ok in the copter). The doc kept his strength and another rescue team came to get him and the animals and now many of the owners have been reunited with their pets.

I think the most heartwarming was a man who was in hospital having left his dog with the doc .....he was reunited.....the dog was like a lifeline to him and you could see his spirit raise as soon as he cuddled his dog. Sometimes pets are the best medicine!

This goes out to all my pricesope animal lovers!
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That was soooooo right!!
 
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