Language to describe fancy cuts with High Brilliancy, Fire , Scintillation

[Serg]

Diamond trade has very weak language to communicate with consumer .
There is not any good word to describe Fancy cuts with Optical performance similar of higher then GIA 3X round cut.

some sales persons use HPD( High Performance diamonds), but High Optical Performance diamonds is too long and boring for me. Early trade use "Life" to describe a diamond beauty.
I would like give short and vivid name for a diamonds with a lot of "Life and Energy "

What associations do you have with name "Vibrant diamonds"?
"Vigorous diamonds"?

any other ideas?

 

[Matthews1127]

Diamond trade has very weak language to communicate with consumer .
There is not any good word to describe Fancy cuts with Optical performance similar of higher then GIA 3X round cut.

some sales persons use HPD( High Performance diamonds), but High Optical Performance diamonds is too long and boring for me. Early trade use "Life" to describe a diamond beauty.
I would like give short and vivid name for a diamonds with a lot of "Life and Energy "

What associations do you have with name "Vibrant diamonds"?
"Vigorous diamonds"?

any other ideas?

“Radiant Fire”? “Delicious Flash”? “Rays of Light”? “Brilliant Sunshine”? “Amazing Fire”? “Beams of Light”?
Am I close? lol!! I have fancy cuts (EC’s, Baguettes & Asschers), and that’s what comes to my mind, when I see them perform.

 

[OoohShiny]

Great question, Serg

@Jimmianne mentioned that her new diamond is 'visually interesting', which I think is a great term - it suggests that a buyer will continue to find their stone interesting to look at over time, rather than seeing it once and then knowing how it will perform in each situation.

I think this could also be called 'character'? Although 'character' can be good or bad, depending on if the stone always performs well or simply refuses to look good apart from in certain lights!

Perhaps 'Diamonds with personality' could work - 'personality' has positive connotations, in that TV personalities are usually known for being energetic and happy people, and it also implies that each diamond has its own traits and is individual. This could be a good thing, given that some (most?) people not in the trade (or on the forums) are likely to think that all diamonds are cut the same and each stone is no more or less difficult to work with than another stone, rather than each rock needing to be cut in a way that works with its own internal structure

 

[Serg]

Great question, Serg

@Jimmianne mentioned that her new diamond is 'visually interesting', which I think is a great term - it suggests that a buyer will continue to find their stone interesting to look at over time, rather than seeing it once and then knowing how it will perform in each situation.

@OoohShiny
Yes, I am searching a word to define a diamonds that looks "Very interesting visually ", a diamonds with great combinations of Brilliancy, Fire, Scintillation , a diamonds that would be more visually interesting than "Ideal Round cut", for very impressive diamonds with great positive optical Illusions and personality.

 

[Gussie]

Charisma Diamonds

 

[ac117]

@OoohShiny
Yes, I am searching a word to define a diamonds that looks "Very interesting visually ", a diamonds with great combinations of Brilliancy, Fire, Scintillation , a diamonds that would be more visually interesting than "Ideal Round cut", for very impressive diamonds with great positive optical Illusions and personality.

How about 'dazzling' or 'lucent'? I also like 'effulgent' or 'lambent'?

 

[LLJsmom]

How about 'dazzling' or 'lucent'? I also like 'effulgent' or 'lambent'?

@ac117 you’re awesome and super smart I gotta say those were some SAT words I had to learn. Effulgent and I never got to the L’s. Did you know kids don’t really do vocab anymore on the SATs? Never mind. I digress.

I just think of a stone as lively or one that really pops, but I don’t think that helps.

 

[ac117]

@ac117 you’re awesome and super smart I gotta say those were some SAT words I had to learn. Effulgent and I never got to the L’s. Did you know kids don’t really do vocab anymore on the SATs? Never mind. I digress.

I just think of a stone as lively or one that really pops, but I don’t think that helps.

I don't always use big words, but when I do, it's to describe diamonds (in my Dos Equis beer voice LOL)!

My mom used to drill me in vocab as additional SAT prep...while super annoying back then, I now realize it was very useful. I did not know that they stopped including that, extremely unfortunate for future generations. It's no wonder so many are so (putting it nicely) 'deficient' in their choice of words.

 

[LLJsmom]

There can be some harder words in the reading sections but no more analogies or those other sections that are purely vocab. Ok sorry. No more derailing.

Back to diamonds!!

“Personality” makes me think of a used car salesman. No offense cause I use that term all the time to describe my own stone. But I have an OEC and it is not at all a precisely cut stone the way a CBI is cut. Personality makes me think of uniqueness which is not why I would buy a precision cut stone. Sorry don’t know if I am explaining this clearly.

 

[whitewave]

Lively? Full of life?

 

[Serg]

How about 'dazzling' or 'lucent'? I also like 'effulgent' or 'lambent'?

1)Lambent and effulgent are new words for me. How well are they known ?
2) 'dazzling' could be good for cuts with High Scintillation. In same time 'dazzling' could be misleading for diamonds with great Fire-Brilliancy balance.
3) Lucent is too close to translucent

 

[Rockdiamond]

(Bottomless bucket of ) Crushed Ice

 

[bludiva]

Lively? Full of life?

That's what comes to mind for me as well...life, liveliness, etc.

 

[ac117]

1)Lambent and effulgent are new words for me. How well are they known ?

Probably not as well known as you'd like them to be if the intent is to use as a new industry term! Noted, will try to think of others!

 

[MarionC]

@OoohShiny
Yes, I am searching a word to define a diamonds that looks "Very interesting visually ", a diamonds with great combinations of Brilliancy, Fire, Scintillation , a diamonds that would be more visually interesting than "Ideal Round cut", for very impressive diamonds with great positive optical Illusions and personality.

And then there is the architecture. I think of my asscher as having bold architecture and
chameleonic character.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Serg- here's another take:
In one sense, the diamond business has transformed into a data business.
The bulk of diamonds being sold are from companies that view any stone as fungible- ( interchangeable)
They don't care what you buy, or care about how it actually looks.

So, in reality, people who are actually working with the goods need to create excitement. Words, pictures, promotions- they all go into transmitting the concept of beauty.
Or go to a VD site and buy the cheapest stone you can find.

Plus- the negativity that has been created by people pushing a specific type of stone over another needs to be countered.
Leakage anyone?

My larger point is that each of us tradespeople that really care about diamonds and beauty need to find our own ways of transmitting it.

 

[Serg]

My larger point is that each of us tradespeople that really care about diamonds and beauty need to find our own ways of transmitting it.

David, if everyone select his own way then we do not shift( change) diamond market . It has very high inertia . You could pass very long way in your own way but it will not change diamond market if you along on your way.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Serg- perception is a personal thing- so no matter how hard we try, we can't standardize beauty- or even the components that make it up.
And based on the way larger companies copied the layout of our site, and manner of representation, I believe I did change the market to an extent- as have you.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sergey even in the world of paintings, the words and preferences are too diverse to accomplish your goal.
The established inertia is very hard to overcome.
The worlds most perfectly polished diamond blah blah blah.
It is so hard to escape salesperson hype.

Your work in quantifying light performance and designing tools and equipment to achieve higher performance is ground breaking. It might take 20 years for the trade to wake up though.

 

[Serg]

Sergey even in the world of paintings, the words and preferences are too diverse to accomplish your goal.
The established inertia is very hard to overcome.
The worlds most perfectly polished diamond blah blah blah.
It is so hard to escape salesperson hype.

Your work in quantifying light performance and designing tools and equipment to achieve higher performance is ground breaking. It might take 20 years for the trade to wake up though.

Garry, what is your suggestion for me? Do you advice me to wait next 20 years? 20 years could be enough for MMD to wash out current diamond industry. In last 10 years the diamond industry did almost nothing to defend market and nothing( full zero) to increase demand, to improve product, service,..
Few members are trying to do something, they are trying to find them new way, but from long term perspective all of them are doing same and they are not changing anything.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sergey it is depressing. But the industry will not disappear.
I have been doing some experiments and needed some less well cut stones. We have a trade in deal and so I have several customers old stones to play with. The cut quality is shocking. The industry has improved. Inch by inch.
I agree we need a leap forward, but it is hard to see it happening soon.
I am excited by the work you do. You possibly have more chance than anyone I know to bring about some change - if you keep going. Would not blame you for giving up.
The article we wrote 5 years ago is the foundation of change. And changes in US patent laws in 2013/14 make it harder for restrictive patents to hold back new developments.
Edited to add: Finding better or even very best language will not change / improve as much as developing effective grading systems that get widely used. You could team up with GIA / De Beers / Rapaport et al and make a more effective difference.
If there was an effective appearance grading for fancy or even free form shapes that would make a huge difference. then instead of making round cuts with 55% loss of rough we might move the market away from rounds.

 

[oldminer]

Nice to come up with terminology for describing not only the best but also for several reasonable levels below the top quality of cut which have merit and may be offered for somewhat less cost. With fancy shapes, the combinations of attributes are complex and don't readily lead to much agreement among cutters or sellers. Ultimately a system could emerge and everyone slowly could come to terms with understanding an using it, including consumers. It is a lot more complicated with fancy shapes than with rounds.

I like the term "Life" to cover attributes of Brilliancy, Scintillation and Fire. Another term might be "Attraction" which could cover attributes of shape appeal and symmetry. Part of this could be scientifically measured and scored and part of this must be based on human perception studies. Assign scores to each of the five measures and one has a "system". Perfecting it and getting it recognized is a long term project and not an easy one. I don't think it would commoditize fancy shapes as there are some many possibilities, but understand the argument against commoditization well enough.

Such a system would have a numerical score(s) result and put many fancy shapes in some sort of common sense order. I doubt everyone would agree on the outcome, but it would have a reasonable validity and lead us to better quality cutting in the long run.

 

[Serg]

Sergey it is depressing. But the industry will not disappear.
I have been doing some experiments and needed some less well cut stones. We have a trade in deal and so I have several customers old stones to play with. The cut quality is shocking. The industry has improved. Inch by inch..

See last news from Borsheims . 10 years the diamond industry did not believe that such shift would happen . Several Antwerp people though that I am crazy after we published
Rapaport Letter to the Editor - Synthetic Appeal .
Yes the natural diamonds will not disappear from market and market for natural diamonds could be recovery in 50-100 years( same as it happened with ruby ). But in next 20 years the natural market niche could easily shrinks on 30-70% if right now the diamond industry will not improve communication level with consumer. Just promotion , brain washing will not work well. Consumers need new products according them goals, values ,, . to create such products you need understand consumers, to understand consumers you need speak with consumers, to speak with consumer about diamonds you need the language that describes well variation between best diamonds. Otherwise you will sell either cheapest diamonds, or diamonds with high symmetry or very rare( unique, big, expensive ) diamonds.

You usually suggest to your consumers the smart choice , smart combination color and clarity( if I remember correctly you advice VS-SI1 and G-H).
but you can not give similar advice neither for Fire-Brilliancy pair, nor for Symmetry-Spread pair.
right? you have not technical ability neither select such diamonds nor communicate with your customers about the difference between Fire, Brilliancy, Symmetry, Spread and specially about smart choice for all these diamond cut phenomenas . Even 4C is too complex for most consumers, if we add grading for many other phenomenas without new language it will block any intelligible communication with consumer and you will sell only 3Ex



Yes, colorless diamonds with modern cut are much better than 30-50 years ago, fancy color diamonds are much better than 10 years ago. There is not big progress for colorless diamonds in last 10 years, because diamond market stuck with H&A RBC. Significant improvements in colorless Oval, Cushions just are coming last 1-2 years.

Edited to add: Finding better or even very best language will not change / improve as much as developing effective grading systems that get widely used. You could team up with GIA / De Beers / Rapaport et al and make a more effective difference.
.

Powerful language between trade and consumers is very important. And it is important that such language come to market before cut grading system than after cut grading system .

 

[OoohShiny]

See last news from Borsheims . 10 years the diamond industry did not believe that such shift would happen . Several Antwerp people though that I am crazy after we published
Rapaport Letter to the Editor - Synthetic Appeal .

Great letter, Serg!


With regards to language, I think you have highlighted a key issue - most people haven't got the time or inclination to learn a lot about diamonds when they are buying, they just want to buy something that looks nice and is not over-priced. (Although many do not look on the internet and do get ripped off )

The PS forum is very much a niche, within which many of us consider ourselves better-educated than 'the average Joe' but still far from 'very knowledgeable' (I take my hat off to the experts here!), but how many people join the forum to make sure they are steered towards the best stones available for their budget and then disappear (because they have learnt 'enough' and don't need any more information/knowledge)?

In many ways, that is just fine - if the forum enables inexperienced buyers to buy the best for their budget, does it matter if not everyone continues to participate? We are spreading the word quietly about well-cut diamonds, which will hopefully inspire others to seek them out

But if even PS cannot inspire all new members to learn all the technical details about diamonds (e.g. effects of different faceting and angles on obstruction/fire, differences between fire/scintillation/brilliance, etc.), what hope does a sales person in a shop or on an internet sales site have in a <5 minute conversation about a diamond someone has enquired about?

I think you are right - a succinct 'language' is needed to describe and define the attributes of individual diamonds, building on the 4Cs / GIAXXX / AGS000, but would it just end up as a long list of graded attributes? (GIAXXXXXXX / AGS0000000? ) If it did, would that be a bad thing? (reference my comments above about enabling inexperienced buyers to buy 'the best' quickly and easily, subconsciously spreading the word about good diamond cut.) Garry would be right if that is a good way forward - working with the grading labs to increase the range of attributes graded would encourage conversation within the industry and also encourage cutters to 'hit the targets' required to get the top grades (reference the comments in another thread this week about GemEx equipment being taken apart to analyse how to 'game' the system). If I understand the history correctly (which I may not!) AGSL led the way with the ASET assessment on grading certificates? If that has increased the number of AGS000 and near-AGS000 stones being cut, that would seem to indicate that if you set new targets (and hitting them will increase retail prices), cutters will cut to them People will 'follow the money', as the saying goes!


EDIT: re-reading that, I feel like I've just re-stated what Garry has said... It was my thought processes as I wrote it, though!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Great thread Serg. I haven't had a chance to read all the comments but I really like your suggestion of 'Vibrancy'.

However, I don't think it is a one word issue. There have to be modifiers, like undertones in color. So you could have something like a 'Vibrancy Quotient" of X combined with some sort of 'personality' factor.

I will get back to this soon to see other comments. Cool discussion!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Clearly, appealing descriptions and messaging that resonates with consumers are vital. But the key to expanding the market for fancy shapes and new faceting designs is a well accepted grading structure. This leads to more confident purchases. Without confidence, it is difficult for the consumer to take a large dollar plunge. As we have seen, round cut grading systems of AGS and GIA have improved diamond cutting and also made it possible for consumers to more easily shop online, while enhancing the beauty of the product and giving consumers more confidence. So the labs have to take the lead and do the same with fancy cuts, especially in light of DeBeers no longer being in a position to do marketing for the entire industry.

High level collaboration, as Garry suggests, is going to be necessary if the natural diamond industry is going to be successful in holding off competition from MMD and from other products that will vie for the consumer dollar.

I know that GIA is working diligently on a fancy cut grading system. They are systematically doing the human observation surveys that they relied on for their round cut grading system. AGS is clearly ahead of GIA on fancy grading, but their reach is too limited at this point. The sooner GIA comes out with fancy grading the better for the industry. This will also help AGSL move from hyper niche in fancy grading to more mainstream (presumably their system will be much more rigoruous and appeal to the top end of an expanding market). But I agree with Garry that ideally you would have great collaboration among and between labs and independent researchers such as Sergey. Crafting a unified approach, although a huge challenge, would be the best of all worlds. And my just be required to meet the challenges to the industry in the years ahead.

 

[Serg]

Garry, Bryan , Oh, and other company who believes in LABs cut grading systems as silver bullet.

Diamond industry is weak because it does not work according consumer feedback and current consumers values. Diamond industry simply does not now them consumers needs and wants.
Firstly Diamond industry( mainly manufactures and retail) has to create Direct communication with them consumers to understand current demands, needs, wants.
Labs can not do it for manufactures, grading report is not useful tool to create consumer feedback.
Grading report decreases communication channel between consumer and produce ( manufactures).
To increase demand We need increase communication between manufactures and consumers, we need start receiving information from consumers about them wants/needs. Instead pushing consumers to follow industry vision ( H&A, ASET, IS,HCA and any other Cut grading systems,) , we need listen consumers, we need start discuss with consumers. it is not possible without powerful language.
Stop waiting a silver bullet which is absent.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Serg- I think you're somehow missing part of the point- all of this has been going on.
The improvements in fancy shape cutting over the past few years, which are obvious to me- and you- are indeed based on communication between cutters, sellers, and consumers.

I could not agree more that lab grading is not the answer- in fact, it can make things much worse.
Diversity is our friend.
If you look at the RBC market, yes, there's been a substantial raising of the bar. But in the process, diversity has been lost.
Try and find a well cut 60/60. Chicken's teeth ( that means they're rare)

The weakness in the diamond industry is due to outside forces having nothing to do with cut, IMO.

 

[Serg]

Serg- I think you're somehow missing part of the point- all of this has been going on.
The improvements in fancy shape cutting over the past few years, which are obvious to me- and you- are indeed based on communication between cutters, sellers, and consumers.

I could not agree more that lab grading is not the answer- in fact, it can make things much worse.
Diversity is our friend.
If you look at the RBC market, yes, there's been a substantial raising of the bar. But in the process, diversity has been lost.
Try and find a well cut 60/60. Chicken's teeth ( that means they're rare)

The weakness in the diamond industry is due to outside forces having nothing to do with cut, IMO.

David,
I did not miss improvement in fancy cuts that had been done in last years. Octonus and Lexus did a lot in last 10 years to create opportunities for such improvements in fancy cuts. It is our main target in last years. I know very well the main sources of such improvements and it is not communication between consumers and cutters. improvements in colorless fancy cuts could be much more than you saw in last years and such improvements will come a soon. For example in next 2 years you will see big improvements ins Ovals then in Cushions( current cushions of course are better than 10 years ago)
You see now just first level of improvements that come mainly from simple optimization of LR and symmetry. Fire and Brilliancy improvements are just coming.
But without consumer feedbacks we can not do main steps in Optical performance optimizations and a lot of good improvements had been rejected by middlemans . Lack of Direct communication between consumers and cutters is very big problem

 

[Rockdiamond]

But without consumer feedbacks we can not do main steps in Optical performance optimizations and a lot of good improvements had been rejected by middlemans . Lack of Direct communication between consumers and cutters is very big problem

Given the direction I see- that being small cutters are getting pushed out, far larger companies taking over- I don't see this happening....but I look forward to improvements you feel are coming!

BTW- the latest "improvements" in some fancy shapes being promoted by some sellers are not improvements at all.
But call it "Ideal" and you will convince some buyers it IS an improvement.
That is an issue too.