Lawyer/Moms

[LizzieC]

Just need to vent about something that''s bugging me…

I went to a panel talk at my law school that was about women lawyers who have kids and boy, was it depressing.

The women who spoke seemed incredibly successful, and happy with their lives, but all of them also waited until they were in their late 30s, early 40s to have kids, and it didn''t seem like any of them took more than a couple of months of maternity leave.

Some of them even talked openly about their fertility problems… and despite that, their advice, literally, was to wait as long as possible to have kids. "Pay your dues or you''ll be resented by the other lawyers at your firm." "You don''t want to look at your kids with resentment, or look at your husband and think ''What could I have accomplished if you had supported me?''"… it was the verbalization of my biggest fears about this career.

I guess I''m just not super duper career-oriented, but I could not identify with them at all. Their advice just broke my heart. They were speaking to a pretty small group, and I was up front, and I was like, "I''m not going to cry, I''m not going to cry." Luckily I held it together!

I''ve talked to other ladies who were in attendance, and everyone seems to feel the same way about it… the speakers were trying to be really helpful and show that, yes, you can have it all… but their definition of "all" was very different from mine (and from all the other gals I talked to). Neither FI nor I want to wait very long to start having kids, and we definitely don''t want to wait a decade or more so that I can "pay my dues"… life''s just too short for that! I cannot imagine a law career being more fulfilling than having a family… but that''s just me. Even now, when I''m at school I can''t wait to get home to my puppies! It really did make me wonder what I''m doing in law school though. I thought it was pretty unfortunate that they didn''t have any women on panel who had kids when they were younger. Or anyone who took real time off and then went back. Maybe that doesn''t happen!

Anyway… it made me very sad and very discouraged about this whole law school thing. And just in time for finals!

 

[dani13]

WOW- Lizzie that is really depressing. I completely agree with you-life is too short to "pay your dues." I dont know, maybe I am tainted because I am a labor and delivery nurse and I see all of these older moms come in- sometimes 45+, and honestly, they just dont do as well with pregnancy- many end up hospitalized, etc. I personally feel that you should not wait till you are older to have children- chance of infetility and other diseases associated with pregnancy (and even not associated with pregnancy) are much higher....
I feel that advancing oneself professionally is very important, but to me, my family and personal life are the most important things....dont feel bad, you are studying to become an attorney and that is great, but your career doesnt have to define you...

 

[allycat0303]

Hey Lizzie,

Well I guess I''m one of those kind of career oriented woman that gave the talk. Here''s how I see it.... I want to have this massive career and honestly, kids are really, really low on my priority list. Now my sister she''s also in med school but wants children, and family is most important to her. She wants to be a General Practioner, work 3 days a week and be with her kids. There''s nothing wrong with either view. We just want different things, and neither of us is more wrong then the other.

You''re going to be able to balance both. Just decide what your values are and make what you decide a priority. If it''s family/ personal, then don''t be career obsessed. If it''s career, then expect that your personal life is going to suffer (at least a little) but I believe you can be a successful lawyer and still have a personal life.

 

[leeenie]

LizzieC, I know exactly how you feel. I'm in the same situation, and I really don't see an easy path (or anything close to it) ahead. The profession of law has simply historically been dominated by men, most of whom have stay at home wives, so are able to put in the crazy 80+ hour workweeks without worrying about childcare (at least that there's someone to do it, not that they don't wish they could be home more).

What's really depressing to me is that even though women have been graduating from law schools in equal numbers for some time now, enough women attorneys leave work fairly early in their careers and never come back so that the profession continues to be run by men - who have no incentive to try to change the system (there are "initiatives," but no results so far). So all women lawyers starting out are fighting an uphill battle with no apparent solution in the future. Unfortunately, the nature of the business is that if you leave for a certain time, you won't really be as marketable anymore when there are fresh law grads banging down the doors. And part-time doesn't exactly work when clients need you to be available all the time - I've heard you end up working 75% of your previous hours for 50% of the pay (it depends what field, though).

There was actually a similar panel at my school last week that I went to and wasn't too pleased with either. The topic was gender discrimination in the workplace, and I figured it would feature some "successful" women in firms who have managed to make it work somehow. Instead, it was 3 women, 2 of whom worked in firms in the past, but none do currently. Their message seemed to be that law firm life is just too incompatible with being a woman and a mother, so even though they tried to change things, they ended up just "opting out" and giving up. I think they picked the wrong people for the panel.

So, I really don't know what it's going to be like when I start at a firm. I don't want to waste my life "paying dues" either, but I also don't want to just give up and quit like so many other women who have worked THIS hard already to get this far - and then just give it all up!! I know there are public interest, govt, smaller firms, and other legal jobs, but it just sucks that it probably won't be practical or desirable to do this thing that we've trained so hard to do, even if we really like the work.

Did you catch that article in the NYT on this a couple weeks back? There was also that Maureen Dowd Times Magazine article on feminism that was really interesting, and also this book "Mommy Madness" about the incompatibility of today's "standard" hands-on parenting with women leading sane lives - while working especially (but even not working). I just thought it was interesting because I spent my whole life thinking that if I worked hard, I could have everything I wanted in life including exploring my ambitions and abilities in addition to having a family. Then I realized that in almost any career that would interest me, it's just not like that for women and the future isn't looking so bright. I think that many of my peers grew up thinking the same way too, and many of them still do - and won't realize how challenging things will be until a couple years into firm work or when they actually want to have kids and see the options that are there. I am really close to my family and am looking forward to having a great family life down the road, but I just feel torn about having worked so hard my entire life to get here and having the capability to do more, but possibly having to throw it all away if it doesn't work with the demands of family. I have noticed from interviews and all the female attorneys I've met at firms that the ones who are there either have no kids, have a stay at home husband, or had them in their mid-thirties or later. I don't plan on pursuing any of those options so...we'll see.

Anyway, just wanted to empathize with you! I feel pretty strongly about this but unfortunately I don't see any solution on the horizon - seems to be you either sacrifice your family life and stick it out, or quit (from firms at least). Well, good luck with finals! It'll be over soon!

 

[decodelighted]

Hey I just wanted to say that my sister is 33, just became a partner in a highly respected firm, has one 18 month old and another on the way. She became a partner AFTER switching to a four day work week ... so it can be done, you just need to really pay attention to the firm's history with female partners/employees etc. when deciding where to be.

 

[movie zombie]

becoming a partner in a law firm is more than old boys club: its also billable hours. and getting the number of billiable hours is not always easy as a young associate in a law firm, even when working full time.

there are firms....big name firms.... that ''talk'' but don''t walk their talk when it comes to women and part time hours. yes, they will reduce your billable hours but it will take longer to become a partner and there will be remarks made that will make you uncomfortable but seen as legitimate to the managing partner.

it also depends on what area of law you go into. personally, i think patent law is a bit more compatible with being a working lawyer mom. even then i''ve known women to leave big name firms once they start their family to work in ''boutique'' offices.

while it may be depressing, i think these types of seminars are vital for women making decisions re career decisions....especially those that want to get pregnant and have a family. an honest opinon from women working in the field is better than sugar coating the situation.

bottom line: to start out in a law firm and want to also start a family at the same time is imo unrealistic. even after paying your dues of long hours and office politics, it can be difficult.....but not impossible.

good luck.

movie zombie

 

[platinumrock]

Lizzie, I can completely understand how you feel. This is the dilemna of the modern, independent woman. But don''t feel bad or discouraged at all. These women are just showing you one path to success....the ability to have a successful law career and be a parent at the same time. In this case, they chose to postpone motherhood until they established their careers. That''s one success. But you don''t have to follow their paths. It''s just different priorities. Some women choose to marry and have children early, wait until their children are grown up, then pursue their careers full-time. That''s another type of success. Some women don''t want to have children at all. They prefer to invest their energy into their careers, climb up the ladder and make tons of money. That is their definition of success. One question though: Are they happy? If so, that''s all that matters.

It seems like you and your FI share the same desire for family. That fact that you can''t bear letting 10 precious years go by before having a baby tells a lot about what''s important to both of you. And this is definitely a good thing. You have the opportunity to determine your own success, and at what price....BEFORE establishing your career. I think it''s important that you pursue and finish law school, if this is what you really want to do. Do you get excited about the idea of practicing law and being a lawyer? It''s not uncommon for people go through several occupations before they find their "career". It''s good to try out what you like and don''t like. And remember, it''s not just lawyers who have to deal with the demands of their jobs....all jobs have their own demands. Like others have mentioned, it''s about knowing how to balance and prioritize.

My husband and I are in the process of establishing our careers. I''m 27 and he''s 33. We will probably start planning for a baby a few years from now...or when I turn 30. But if we have an "accident" before then, OH MY GOD, in a heartbeat....I will file for maternity leave when I''m ready to pop!...LOL...We love having our careers and being financially comfortable, but our priorities right now are each other, our yellow lab and being happy.

Wishing you all the success you deserve!!!

 

[littlelysser]

Lizzie - I graduated from law school in 2001. I spent four years in two large firms and as much as I hate to say it, I think these women are a pretty accurate representation of my experience.

As someone above me said...law firms are a generally a old boys club. There are exceptions (meaning women), but they are women either without children or with children and husbands who are willing to stay home and help with the children. And both of my former firms had a three month paid maternity leave policy. Which was actually pretty generous...I don''t know what you are hoping for, but chances are you aren''t going to get much better than that.

There are nearly as many women as men graduating from law school right now...maybe even more women, yet there are so few female partners. And that is regardless of whether there are children involved or not.

And when you are ruled by the almighty billable hour...it is tough, at least in my experience, to have much quality of life.

However, I wouldn''t be discouraged. My guess would be these women were all working for firms. There are TONS of other places to work...clerking for a judge, working in house for a corporation, working for the state of federal goverments, working for a legal-aid or something like that...lots of other opportunities...of course you wouldn''t make nearly the money you could make at a big firm...but it is a trade off...

What year are you in law school?

 

[Diam100]

Lizzie,

I hate to say this but if I was at that seminar I would have said the same thing to every one of you in that room. There were many times in my career when I questioned my decision, did not see sunup or sunset & started to calculate how many hours without sleep I could get without losing my mind.

Go with the advice Littlysser gave above there are many options available besides working for a large firm. Here's some additional advice, you can try it & if it's not your cup of tea - switch. Many lawyers who have left take on a totally different career. Many have left for Corporate jobs, Teaching jobs, etc & quality of life has improved for them.

 

[Gemklctr]

Date: 4/9/2006 11:16:56 PM
Author: decodelighted
Hey I just wanted to say that my sister is 33, just became a partner in a highly respected firm, has one 18 month old and another on the way. She became a partner AFTER switching to a four day work week ... so it can be done, you just need to really pay attention to the firm''s history with female partners/employees etc. when deciding where to be.

You''re absolutely right deco. It depends on the firm. I have a number of women partners with children, both married and single moms. Some work full time, some part time; some had children before they made partner, some after. Several made partner after taking extended leaves to have children and coming back part time. There are firms out there that offer such options. Of course, certain practice areas are more schedule-friendly (litigation, for example, is NOT), than others, and non-firm options are also available. Any profession is going to put demands on your personal life, and you must be prepared for that or find something else to do, but if you find the right situation you can do - and enjoy - both.

 

[Julian]

I''m all about the career, too. But lately I feel a little burned out. It used to be so much fun, but now I feel ready to have kids and settle down. I used to put my career first, but now I''m ready to put my relationship first.

DH always says he''d be more than happy for me to stay at home and be a lady who lunches. I daydream about that sometimes -- we don''t need my income at all. I could meet my friends, work out all day, cultivate my hobbies & and spend time with my family...

What are we women slaving for? Especially when we have kids? It just seems too hard to have kids AND a kick-ass career. Something suffers and it''s usually the marriage or the kids. If not, then the woman suffers. I don''t think it''s depressing, just a life choice. We all choose our paths in life, no?

 

[fire&ice]

As noted, there are areas of specialty that can easily be done on a lower pace & part-time. You can work in the trust department of a bank. You can do wills, estate planning from your home. A Patent Attorney (male) works from his home & is the primary care giver to their children. An acquaintance works part time as a healthcare attorney (don''t know what exactly she does though).

Sadly though, if you want to work for one of the large fast track firms, the panel probably is correct. But, you can choose a different path, especially if money and success in your career is second fiddle to having & caring for a family. If those are your priorities you can make it so.

Good luck.

 

[movie zombie]

the two cases i saw in which it worked really well the husband was a stay at home daddy: one woman was an attorney in a smaller law firm and the other in a large corporation.

the worst case i saw was in a major well known law firm whose child didn''t recognize mom as part of the family....the woman attorney had to take the nanny with the kid in order to preserve norms of acceptable behavior: w/o the nanny around the kid just ran rampant and didn''t acknowlege mom.

going ''in house'' into a corporation is also an option, especially an older and long established company where hours are pretty well 8a-5p. there are many nonprofits as well that would love to have an attorney on board.

as noted above, something has to give when a woman wants a family and a career. unfortunately, society hasn''t evolved to where a man has to make that same decision. we don''t have the support networks in place as a society. but someone has to raise those kids and that job usually falls to the woman who then has to make the trade off. in reality, raising kids is a career in and of itself and also a full time job.

if law is your dream then pursue it but pursue it realistically. remember there are only 24 hours in a day in which to make sure you have enough time for yourself, your career, your husband, and your children....and don''t forget the dog!

there are ways that law degree can come in handy in many jobs; for instance, contracts. you might find a perfect job utilizing that law degree w/o having to work in a law firm!

movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

I wanted to add something that you may find encouraging. In the last five years we retained a lawyer to look over a partnership agreement, a lawyer to look over a non-compete clause & a lawyer to draw up our will, medical will & set up our trust. All worked from home or small office & did it on their own time.

 

[akw94]

Lizzie,
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with the panel. When it comes to law or other professional jobs, there are decisions you have to make. I had a child before law school so I knew that I didn''t want to go corporate, partly due to not wanting to work 60-80 hr weeks. Luckily, that type of work has never interested me. Instead, I work for the government so that I have normal working hours. Sometimes I bring work home but it''s not excessive. I enjoy my job (for the most part) and feel like i''m making a difference. I also have some flexibility so I can make it school functions and field trips. It really just depends what type of law you want to practice. As others have said, there are other options out there that don''t require the type of commitment that the panel ladies suggested. But if that''s what you want, you have to prepare yourself for it. As i''ve been practicing law a few years now, I realize more and more that family is most important. Although I never wanted to go corporate or do the big firm thing, I still thought I wanted a very career driven path. Now, I know I want to be there for my son. It''s very hard to find a balance. I still can''t pick him up from school or attend every function, but at least I have a little flexibility. It''s also important for me to feel like i''m doing good work. Without that, I couldn''t be happy at home. I need the balance in order to be happy in both worlds. So while you''re in law school, take some time to think about what is most important to you. What type of law do you want to practice? What type of environment do you want to work in? What are your priorities? You can be a lawyer and not work in the major firms. But know that you won''t likely make the $ they make. You have decide if that is ok too. For me, the $ wasn''t worth the misery. Now, sometimes I wish I would''ve gone corporate for 5yrs and then criminal, but that decision was made. I know I wouldn''t have been happy with the other choice. I also know that it''s hard to switch career paths once you''re in, but not impossible.
Think about your options and figure out what works for you. You''ll find a path of your own.

 

[princessv]

We recently had a panel like that at my law school...y''all don''t happen to go to the same law school as me?

Pretty cool if you did LizzeC!

It was pretty depressing, I''m not sure I''m ready to start a family yet..I''m younger by a year than most people in my class (23 instead of 24 being a 2L) What concerns me the most, is the amount of student loan debt that I have. I think I would be interested in working in a big firm (not just for the $$ but because I''ve never experienced it) but am worried that I won''t be able to get a foot in because 1) I missed the recruitment because of the relocation and everything and 2) I was a transfer (which I noticed most firms don''t love even if you did really well at the other school).

I saw an article that was posted on my law school''s ''free speech board'' that cited something like nationwide only 17% of partners are women. That is a pretty depressing statistic. When I saw that, I wondered how many women actually still use their legal education? I am aware of course, that there are alternative legal careers, but how many of us get burnt out and just leave?

I have to admit that thought has crossed my mind a couple of times this year...fleeting, but still a thought.

 

[maddie80]

Lizzie -

I know exactly what you mean! I am graduating from law school this May and I have a lot of the same feelings you do. I started law school all gung-ho to start a career as a trial lawyer, or a litigator. After a clerkship with a well-known large corporate firm, and another summer clerkship with a smaller trial firm, and interning doing criminal stuff, my motivation dropped for a lot of reasons. It''s not that I am not willing to work hard - but I started to wonder if I really had the motivation to make major sacrifices in my personal life - for money! And I am about as Type A as it gets!

I have not experienced law firms to be especially female-friendly - I believe that there are firms that are better than others, though. I think it gets frustrating though, knowing you are not really on an equal footing with the boys!

I am thrilled to see this thread though - except for the token "Women and work/life balance in the law" panel every year at school, this problem isn''t talked about much.... I am taking a seminar on issues in the legal profession (including women in the law and discrimination) and it has been interesting, but not encouraging!

Maddie

 

[Ux4]

"The law is a jealous mistress and requires a long and constant courtship." Joseph Story, Dane Professor of Law, Harvard University,1829.

I hope you are a 1st year law student. You should consider dropping before finals. Why endure such torture again if, in your heart, you know that you do not want to make the necessary sacrifices of, perhaps, the most demanding of careers?

I vividly remember talking with a friend in law school some years ago. My friend was following in his father's footsteps. His father was known as a top practicing lawyer and litigator who had advanced to an elected high political office where he served for several terms until he died in office. As we approached time to study for 1st year, second semester finals, my friend sought me out for advice. He doubted his love for the law and dedcation to the profession, acknowledging that he wanted to become a lawyer because it would delight his father if.... At this point, I assured him that the thing that his dad would want the most was for him to be happy. Of course, I could not offer any life changing advice, only a friendly and heart felt exchange with a friend. On his own, he dropped out within the next couple of days. He sought me out to tell me of his decision, and I listened to the voice of a very happy and relieved man. AND, he is just that today: happy and stress free in a great job that he loves.

I hear something of my friends voice in the tone of your post. What are your motives and goals? Why did you choose Law? To please your dad or mom? Boyfriend? To show someone that you could, if only yourself? Examine yourself! Answer the unpleasant questions. Make the RIGHT decision! It must be your personal decision. Remember: lawyers must make their decisons naked - exposed and lonely; and, their decisions must be right ( most every time and professional everytime)!


After due consideration, if you do not know what to do before finals, by all means do your best on finals! Don'y worry! Worry makes it impossible to do your best. After acing finals, take a year or two off while you consider your future! You have a LIFETIME ahead of you to get in 30 - 50 years of law, or whatever you love!

OOPS! I'm a guy. 1st and ony child at age 41, the age at which I was "ready" because I knew I could, finally, find the time to parent a child - as a 1st priority.

 

[divergrrl]

Lizzie,

I''m not an attorney, but I spent a lot of time and money on an expensive private education & 9 years in telecommunications as a marketing exec before bailing to be a stay at home mom.

I was 33 when I first got pregnant (after two surgeries over 2 years to remove fibroids that were preventing conception) and I lost that baby at 8 weeks.

I was almost 34 when I got pregnant with Jake (who was born dec,21 2004)

Most of my girlfriends (we went to college together) didn''t start our families until we were in our mid 30''s. We''ve all battled infertility issues...mine being the easiest by far.

I don''t have a recommendation as whether or not to start early, late, or wait till its right...I didn''t have a choice... I didn''t meet my dh until I was 29..married at 31...two years of surgery...now I''m 35...I figure it happens when it happens, but I have noticed that us "Mid thirties Mommies" seem to have our fair share of difficulty...but we also have successful pregnancies, deliveries (mine was a snap...), and tons of patience & wisdom for our little ones...so there is the trade off.

As for the career choices? I knew I could not deal with travel (esp. since my dh travels 50% of the month, one of us would have to be home all the time), 50hr weeks, weekends in the office when forecasts were due..etc...

My two friends who are MommyLawyers have done two different things..one got out of litigation & is now working for the government...she''s got a 40hr week & loves her job. Less money, but still decent. The other left her firm & is doing family law from her home office.

The thing about motherhood that no one tells you, is that it will affect you professionally. It derails a good number of us. I chose to step off the fast track & haven''t looked back, but many cannot or do not want to do that and its ok. You can find your balance, you just have to be creative in a field like law.

Hope this helps,

Jeannine

 

[divergrrl]

Date: 4/10/2006 12:03:17 PM
Author: Julian
I''m all about the career, too. But lately I feel a little burned out. It used to be so much fun, but now I feel ready to have kids and settle down. I used to put my career first, but now I''m ready to put my relationship first.

DH always says he''d be more than happy for me to stay at home and be a lady who lunches. I daydream about that sometimes -- we don''t need my income at all. I could meet my friends, work out all day, cultivate my hobbies & and spend time with my family...

What are we women slaving for? Especially when we have kids? It just seems too hard to have kids AND a kick-ass career. Something suffers and it''s usually the marriage or the kids. If not, then the woman suffers. I don''t think it''s depressing, just a life choice. We all choose our paths in life, no?

Julian, I think many women don''t have the choice to stay home because most of them need that second income. DH and I lucked out, we didn''t need mine either & we did a few things like pay off my car & sock away some money before I left when I got pg, so that I could stay home comfortably.

I love being able to lunch, workout, do projects on my house...it really is a life of leisure, but I am rat-ass-tired when I go to bed at 10pm. Jake is a fun baby, but kids have more energy than we do & need our constant watching eye...which is exhausting! And you do all hte house stuff on top of it! But I love every minute of it....Love my baby, my house, and I don''t miss margin reports at all...but I find I run my SAHM mom days like I''m working. I''m up early, dressed, and have some makeup on, bed made, paper read & on my feet before mister gets up. Monday feels like a monday & I always look forward to Saturdays.

I did find a need to have a creative outlet, so I do some freelance writing for an oncology group & also became a certified yoga instructor, but I only teach twice a week. Easy Peasy.

Jeannine

 

[LizzieC]

Wow everyone... thanks for the thoughtful support and advice. Teagreen, Platinum, maddie … thanks for the empathy!

Although I talked to some classmates about the panel afterwards, I didn’t really get to “vent” as much as I needed.. and I’m so glad I could do it here! That’s one of the insidious things about law school, right? You never want to show your weaknesses…

BTW Maddie- I wish I was a little more Type A! I’m about as Type B as it gets!

Deco- it’s great to hear that your sister was able to balance kids and career at a younger age. I think that was one of my bigger gripes about the panel… that only ONE type of lawyer-mother was represented.

MZ, lyss, Gem, fire, amy & - Yes, I agree it definitely makes a difference what type of law you’re going into. Big firm law is certainly not for me. I’m much more public law/gov’t oriented, and I’m planning to go into immigration law, an area that I “think” will give me the opportunity to work part-time and even from home in the future, I hope. At school there’s just SO much emphasis on Law Review and Big Firm that it’s easy to start feeling like if you’re not striving for that then you’re doing something wrong.

I guess I do just need to remember that I’m here for my own reasons and not anyone else’s. I’m in my first year right now, which probably has something to do with my anxiety/ambivalence. I’m looking forward to next year when I actually get to pick my classes for myself. Hopefully once I’m doing something I’m genuinely interested in, it won’t seem as hopeless!

Princess V- your comment about how many women really “use” their law degree reminded me of a blog entry I read a while back on the famous and highly respected Prof. Richard Posner’s blog. I quote:

“While well-educated mothers contribute more to the human capital of their offspring than mothers who are not well educated, it is doubtful that a woman who graduates from Harvard College and goes on to get a law degree from Yale will be a better mother than one who stopped after graduating from Harvard.”

I was SO mad when I read that the first time around, and it still makes my blood pressure go up a few notches, but now I’m kinda (just kinda) beginning to see his point! Even so, that doesn’t mean I’m going to drop out of law school (not a possibility Ux, but I appreciate your concern), or that I’m going to feel bad for taking up a spot that could have been filled by someone who would really get a lot of “mileage” out of their JD. Well, maybe just a little.

Divergrrl- Thank you for sharing your story! While I know I want/need to have a “profession” (not just a job) and a “career that I can fall back on”… this has been drilled into me by my mom from a very young age… I really do hope that at least while my little one is really little I can be a SAHM. My mom (who was well educated and a professional pre-kids) never worked outside the home after she had us, and I guess since that’s my reference point, it’s really hard for me to imagine not being around for all the little things and for me not to take my kids to school and pick them up every day. What I''ve gathered from the other threads that have discussed the SAHM topic, is that most people feel like what they had growing up was good. Or even more generally, most people think that what they''ve chosen to do with their life is the right thing... it''s very rare that you hear someone say "if I had to do things over I''d do it differently." Hmmm, I don''t know where I was going with that, but it''s interesting....

I do wish I’d thought more about all this stuff before coming to law school, but I don’t know if I would have made a difference. So much of it depends on the particular circumstances you’re going through at the time. It wasn’t until I got engaged and FI and I started talking specifics, that I really started to think realistically about the whole career/family balance. Prior to that it was just an abstract concept.

Speaking of which…. gotta get back to work on the Rule Against Perpetuities!

 

[littlelysser]

Lizzie -

I completely understand about the pressure to make law review and go to a big firm...I went to law school because I had waited tables for two years since I graduated from college. My undergraduate degree was in creative writing...and I had no desire to become a corporate rat.

However, unlike you, I didn't go in to law school with a vision of what I wanted to be when I finished. I just did it because I didn't know what else to do. It just so happened that I absolutely loved law school. I loved the intellectual aspects of it and I loved learning. Loved it. I was lucky enough to make law review and next thing I knew, I was working insane hours for a huge firm. It is really easy to get caught up in the belief that big firm = big success.

And well, that is simply not the case. Don't get me wrong...my bank account and my hand bag collection were happy...but I was not. I felt defined by my job and I was entirely unable to leave my work at work.

I left private practice about a year ago...I'm working for an appellate level state court. It is everything I loved about law school...research, writing, and analysis. Mind you, I took an $80,000.00 pay cut to do it...but hey...quality of life is really quite priceless.

If you can continue with and not lose sight of your goal should the big firm money come your way, you'll be much happier.

-Melissa

ps - rule against perpetuities...life in being plus 90 years or something like that...blech!!!

 

[ursulawrite]

My husband is a senior associate at a top 5 firm in NYC and I have to say that there are women partners at his firm BUT none of them have kids and a fair number aren''t even in a relationship. From my observations (dinners, corporate outings etc.) it is definitely an old boys'' club and many of the partners'' wives are SAHMs or work in professions with more flexible hours than law, banking etc. Quite depressing, really.

 

[gailrmv]

I may be a little late to the topic... but wanted to chime in that I am struggling with a lot of the same issues! I am in school for health administration, and I specifically chose this degree program over law or MBA school because I thought that it had a better quality of life (and I KNOW it has lower salary). But going to different career panels has left me with the very same thoughts that you mentioned, Lizzie. I was very discouraged as well. I basically feel like if we are going to have kids, I will have to choose between my career and being a mom, because I just don''t see how I could do any less than my best at either, and my best will require a full time commitment.

I previously worked in management consulting and tried a few other things before going back for my masters. In my limited experience, it seems like very few jobs offer true work/life balance at least not at the entry and mid level. Many jobs require you to be available nights/weekends, maybe not to necessarily work all the time, but at least some of the time. I don''t have kids yet, but having evenings and weekends mostly free is a priority for me to spend time with my husband first and foremost, and also for chores and errrands, community and hobby activities, friends, etc... all those things that are important to me to have a full life. I am completely willing to earn a modest salary as long as I can be happy and challenged in my job and work reasonable hours (which in my opinion means less than 50/week). Why can''t I find it??? Is it even out there? I have been poking around job sites looking at part time work and the advertised positions are almost non-existant.

I hope that the work world for our daughters inherit will be better than this one. A lot of times I feel like there is just not enough time in the day to accomplish everything that our careers require, along with all the other things we want and need to do, without going crazy!

 

[Ann]

Whoa, this subject hit me right in the face, 2 weeks ago, a very close friend called to say his wife of 26 yrs. filed for divorce. She is a partner in a large big city firm, with 180 attorneys under her wing. Her base salary hovers around 500,000.
They have 2 teenage children. He quit his corporate track, high paying job, to stay at home and be MR.Mom. She worked very long hours and was never home. She rarely saw her children compete in anything and they were very active, thanks to dad''s guidance. She traveled the world and it was nothing but the best for her. Several friends have all said the same thing, he made her. He encouraged her to go to law school, he coached her through tough times, and helped with all the networking that was a small part of her success. She has found someone else, another attorney in another city. He bores her. How sad. The children will no doubt suffer, as they are moving out with mom. Why, who knows. But something tells me that was a calculated move on her part, to look like a good mom, ha!

Have your babies, they are far more important than any job.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 4/11/2006 12:18:22 AM
Author: Ann
Whoa, this subject hit me right in the face, 2 weeks ago, a very close friend called to say his wife of 26 yrs. filed for divorce. She is a partner in a large big city firm, with 180 attorneys under her wing. Her base salary hovers around 500,000.
They have 2 teenage children. He quit his corporate track, high paying job, to stay at home and be MR.Mom. She worked very long hours and was never home. She rarely saw her children compete in anything and they were very active, thanks to dad''s guidance. She traveled the world and it was nothing but the best for her. Several friends have all said the same thing, he made her. He encouraged her to go to law school, he coached her through tough times, and helped with all the networking that was a small part of her success. She has found someone else, another attorney in another city. He bores her. How sad. The children will no doubt suffer, as they are moving out with mom. Why, who knows. But something tells me that was a calculated move on her part, to look like a good mom, ha!

Have your babies, they are far more important than any job.

times have changed! used to be the reverse: wife puts man through medical/law school and he files for divorce later because she bores him.

movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 4/10/2006 10:18:13 PM
Author: LizzieC

I hope. At school there’s just SO much emphasis on Law Review and Big Firm that it’s easy to start feeling like if you’re not striving for that then you’re doing something wrong.

I am convinced that the Profs push it because they get kudos for raising proper little slaves. Slaves that find "macho" in working 80 hours a week.

Don''t feel the pressure. I wonder if it just makes the law school numbers look better. X school graduates x number of prestious law firm slaves.

 

[pebbles]

Date: 4/11/2006 9:21:39 AM
Author: fire&ice

Date: 4/10/2006 10:18:13 PM
Author: LizzieC

I hope. At school there’s just SO much emphasis on Law Review and Big Firm that it’s easy to start feeling like if you’re not striving for that then you’re doing something wrong.

I am convinced that the Profs push it because they get kudos for raising proper little slaves. Slaves that find ''macho'' in working 80 hours a week.

Don''t feel the pressure. I wonder if it just makes the law school numbers look better. X school graduates x number of prestious law firm slaves.

I think this is definitely true. My husband is an attorney and we get some sort of publication from his law school every couple of months asking for money. The magazine always has blurbs about who is working for what firm, or has some sort of spolight on the kind of contribution this particular firm has done for the school.

His school was definitely in the mindset that if you didn''t make Law Review or worked for a large firm that you were a sub-par attorney.

Two of my girlfriends are attorneys. One works for the government, the other works for a large firm. The one that works for the government obviously took a huge cut in pay, but she did it for the quality of life...meaning she only has to work 40 instead of 80 hours a week. She has a young son and is fortunate enough to have family watch him while she works so all her salary is theirs so to speak, instead of having to use it for day care. She loves being an attorney and never saw herself staying at home with her child full time. It works for her. Incidentally, her husband does work for a large firm and she hardly ever sees him.

My girlfriend that works for the large firm has definitely fallen into the "bigger is better" mindset. She literally works 80 hours a week -- most weekends and evenings. She has become a slave to her paycheck. She loves the income. Her and her husband don''t have kids, but he is starting to pressure her b/c HE wants kids. She says "if" they do have kids that he will be the one to stay home with them; she cannot imagine not doing what she is doing now. She is 35 now and is thinking "maybe" kids in a few years or so.

Obviously these are all her personal choices and she has to be the one to be happy with them. She knows my girlfriend that works for the government and unfortunately looks down on her because of it.

I almost went to law school myself after undergrad. I was working as a paralegal and saw what the new/younger associates had to go through. It seemed like they literally had no life. The partners had a bit easier lifestyle, but one of the partners who had her first baby at 42 went back to work full time when he was only 3 weeks old. I just knew that wasn''t what I wanted in my life...so after working there 2 years and much soul searching, I made a complete career change...and have never looked back.

Bottom line, when the time comes Lizzie, you have to decide what is right for you. You can never go wrong following your heart.

 

[akw94]

Lizzie,
I think it''s common to have your feelings in your 1st year. First of all, the first year is terrible! It''s hard and designed to make you question yourself, your career choice, etc... Law school is a weeding out process, unfortunately. I think that you are right, once next year comes and you get some more interesting class choices, things will look up a bit. There are a lot of options out there as an attorney. Also, don''t think that the only place you can litigate is in a big firm. Criminal is 90% courtroom work, especially as a government attorney. Immigration is an interesting part of the law, especially these days. If you want, most law schools have a career counseling center, perhaps you can go in there and talk to someone about your thoughts/concerns. You can also get an idea of what jobs are out there right now.
I think it''s important to remember that you can have a family and be a lawyer, you just choose a different path than the person who wants the huge paycheck and is working all the time. That doesn''t mean it''s not doable or that you should let others discourage you.
But really, I wouldn''t worry too much now. You have time to sort this stuff out. If you''re not going the big firm path, the decisions you need to make aren''t as immediate.
Good luck!

 

[rainbowtrout]

OK--I didn''t closely read all the responses, but I wanted to offer one possible solution. If you are going to be--and WANT to be--a bigshot lawyer, in a prestigious firm, you''re probably making mad bank. Thus there is no real need for hubby to work unless he has a career he is deeply passionante about.

Is he happy with the idea of his staying home? Or at least open to trying it?