Natalee Holloway

[Italiahaircolor]

I was surprised to see that this topic hasn''t been brought up on this site...but I think with the latest happenings in the case, it could lead to some interesting conversation.

I''m not sure if this is a permitted topic, so I wont go any further...just thought I''d throw the subject out there since I''m a big ol'' news junkie!

 

[Ellen]

I think the truth is finally starting to come out. Only it''s my personal opinion Joran has left out one small detail, like, how she really died. It is just not human nature to have somone in front of you become unresponsive, and you don''t go screaming for help, but instead dump the body in the ocean and go to bed.

Not. Buying. It.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I agree that the truth still hasn't come out. I think it's pretty obvious he's hiding something--like Ellen said, if she just passed out due to alcohol poisoning he would have called 911. The fact that his initial reaction was to dump the body (when he admitted he didn't know if she was dead), seems like a desperate move to get rid of incriminating evidence. I think the most glaring indication that he is still hiding something is the fact that the man he claims dumped the body--a name he said he would take to the grave with him in the under cover confession--wasn't even in Aruba at the time. I can't tell if Joran is just lucky and keeps dodging bullets by being elusive or if he's intelligent and is doing whatever he can to throw everybody off by adopting different personalities and changing his story. Without a body, it's too hard to find anything incriminating.

 

[pennquaker09]

I went to elementary and junior high school with her.

 

[diamondfan]

I feel so sad for her mom.

There are witnesses who claim they sold her drugs. Joran claims she died while they were having sex, had a seizure. If it was a reaction to a drug, he should have helped her. It is in debate if she took the drugs knowingly or was fed them. Should not truly matter (except toward his criminal liability) because whoever and however she got it, when she fell ill he should have gotten help for her.

I have to say I am now terrified to send my son on this type of trip. You just never know the supervision and how they act without the parents, when they are on islands like that. Especially when the drinking age is only 18 and they can be off on their own.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 2/6/2008 9:46:25 AM
Author: Ellen
I think the truth is finally starting to come out. Only it''s my personal opinion Joran has left out one small detail, like, how she really died. It is just not human nature to have somone in front of you become unresponsive, and you don''t go screaming for help, but instead dump the body in the ocean and go to bed.

Not. Buying. It.

Ditto. Girls just don''t ordinarly drink a little too much and die. My guess is that he either had given her a date rape drug or else he killed her when he raped her. She was an A student with a college scholarship and I do not for one minute think she was a drug user. I think she was majorly naive about what could happen to her if she lost control by drinking too much, though. Of course, if they gave her other things, then it might have been beyond her control.

I am so thankful for her parents that they at least found out most of what really happened. It must have been hell to have had no idea.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 2/6/2008 7:38:47 PM
Author: diamondfan
I feel so sad for her mom.

There are witnesses who claim they sold her drugs. Joran claims she died while they were having sex, had a seizure. If it was a reaction to a drug, he should have helped her. It is in debate if she took the drugs knowingly or was fed them. Should not truly matter (except toward his criminal liability) because whoever and however she got it, when she fell ill he should have gotten help for her.

I have to say I am now terrified to send my son on this type of trip. You just never know the supervision and how they act without the parents, when they are on islands like that. Especially when the drinking age is only 18 and they can be off on their own.

I would never let my kids go on that type of trip at that age. Once they are over 21 they can do what they want, but that situation is almost asking for trouble. People let their kids go because other "nice" people are letting their kids go, but I think that is very naive, too. Did y''all happen to see on the news back in the fall when several Univesity of SC kids (mostly 1 were killed in a beach house fire? They were all beautiful sorority girls and handsome boys just enjoying a weekend at the beach at an oceanfront home one of the girl''s parents owned. A couple of kids escaped the fire but around 8 of them died. You never think things like that will happen, but they do.

 

[diamondfan]

I am super neurotic so any stories about kids dying like that terrify me. And she might have been a wonderful good kid who, away from some watchful eyes, decided to let loose a bit. Perfectly normal and harmless most of the time. However, you do it with strange people out of your comfort zone...tragic results. I have heard so many stories recently about kids going off and getting killed in fights or getting drunk and falling out of windows and other terrible things and I just want to keep my kids home. The fire thing is scary too, there could be one anywhere. I almost want ask now if they have working smoke detectors. Carbon monoxide deaths also freak me, every winter here families die from it. I have detectors in my house but you never know. I just know that for me, I hope my sons really learn some caution, because when you are young you feel invincible and in a moment tragic things can happen. I just feel so sorry for her folks. And the parents of Joran should not be thinking he is such a wonderful kid.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Ditto! Seriously, kids from "nice" homes generally haven''t had extensive experience with drinking in high school, so to suddenly go to an island somewhere where everyone is drinking heavily, it is not wonder we don''t hear of more stories like this. I did see part of a documentary one time about kids going to beaches and resorts for spring break, and you''d never let your kids go if you saw that! You just don''t know how bad things can get when a bunch of kids get drunk in an unsupervised environment...and that''s not counting the drug potential.

I totally think Joran is one scary individual. He has no morals or conscience at all. I think there is a clinical name for that.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 2/6/2008 8:59:45 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006
Ditto! Seriously, kids from ''nice'' homes generally haven''t had extensive experience with drinking in high school, so to suddenly go to an island somewhere where everyone is drinking heavily, it is not wonder we don''t hear of more stories like this. I did see part of a documentary one time about kids going to beaches and resorts for spring break, and you''d never let your kids go if you saw that! You just don''t know how bad things can get when a bunch of kids get drunk in an unsupervised environment...and that''s not counting the drug potential.

I totally think Joran is one scary individual. He has no morals or conscience at all. I think there is a clinical name for that.

Psychopath maybe?

I agree with everything that''s been said. And while I''m glad her parents are finally getting at the truth, the thought of finding out she may have not been dead when pitched in the water is more than I can bear. I cannot fathom what they must be thinking/feeling.

 

[pennquaker09]

Date: 2/6/2008 8:17:45 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 2/6/2008 9:46:25 AM

Author: Ellen

I think the truth is finally starting to come out. Only it's my personal opinion Joran has left out one small detail, like, how she really died. It is just not human nature to have somone in front of you become unresponsive, and you don't go screaming for help, but instead dump the body in the ocean and go to bed.


Not. Buying. It.

Ditto. Girls just don't ordinarly drink a little too much and die. My guess is that he either had given her a date rape drug or else he killed her when he raped her. She was an A student with a college scholarship and I do not for one minute think she was a drug user. I think she was majorly naive about what could happen to her if she lost control by drinking too much, though. Of course, if they gave her other things, then it might have been beyond her control.


I am so thankful for her parents that they at least found out most of what really happened. It must have been hell to have had no idea.

Well, even though we moved from Mountain Brook when I started high school, I had friends and cousins that did attend MBHS. This is the most affluent high school in the state of Alabama. The kids there as well as those in Vestavia and Hoover(where I went to school) have the means to get their hands on alcohol and drugs. I know, I was pretty much the designated driver because I didn't drink. Everyone thinks that the honors students are the ones that don't do drugs or drink, well these are the kids that are more likely to participate in those kinds of activities. Between my high school experiences, going to Tulane and the semester I spent Harvard, I have no hesitation saying that it's the rich kids that do the drinking and the drugs. It's pretty much common knowledge. So, I mean if it's happening at home, of course it's going to happen when you're somewhere like Aruba or Cabo San Lucas. People there think they have the most perfect little Christian kids, when in actuality, THEY ARE THE WORST ONES.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I agree with all of you...there is a big piece of the story that is missing. But, I''m not totally sure what that piece is.

First of all, I feel so unbelieveably sad for her family. I remember when this story first went public, and thinking they will never find that girl alive. Boy, sometimes I wish I wrong. Everyday must be like a bad dream for them...because not only have they never found actual peace, but it is constantly being brought up again--like opening an old wound.

Second of all...I think the confessional Joran made is kind of "ify". Do I think he killed her, yes. But I am terribly unhappy about the latest breakthru. I think Joran is desperate. I think he is, at best, a loser and there was this seemingly well-connected man, and Joran was trying to impress him. So, what does Joran have that would impress a criminal? How about a murder... I think the Aruban police need to prompty arrest Joran--reopen the case...and get the the bottom of this.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 2/8/2008 2:26:58 AM
Author: Italiahaircolor
I agree with all of you...there is a big piece of the story that is missing. But, I''m not totally sure what that piece is.

First of all, I feel so unbelieveably sad for her family. I remember when this story first went public, and thinking they will never find that girl alive. Boy, sometimes I wish I wrong. Everyday must be like a bad dream for them...because not only have they never found actual peace, but it is constantly being brought up again--like opening an old wound.

Second of all...I think the confessional Joran made is kind of ''ify''. Do I think he killed her, yes. But I am terribly unhappy about the latest breakthru. I think Joran is desperate. I think he is, at best, a loser and there was this seemingly well-connected man, and Joran was trying to impress him. So, what does Joran have that would impress a criminal? How about a murder... I think the Aruban police need to prompty arrest Joran--reopen the case...and get the the bottom of this.

I''m not. It may not be the confession we all wanted to hear, and it''s most likely not the entire truth, but it''s something. He has now put himself as the last one to see her alive (I''ve watched enough criminal profile shows to know they are always suspect), and admitted he had her dumped. Even if he never utters another word, they can get him on this story he has told. He can get in trouble for not helping her when she became unresponsive, and for dumping her body.

In an ideal situation, the police will grill him til he breaks (supposedly they had him as of last night for questioning) . But I''m not holding my breath on that one. The criminal investigator that set this whole thing up was on TV last night, and he seems confident Joran will go to trial for this. Maybe not as promptly as he would here, but he does think he will. I hope so.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Ellen, I''d like to agree with you...but I have a sick feeling that this snake-bast*rd will worm his way out of it again. He has already been grilled, numerous times...and somehow manages to avoid confessing. Yes, they have that lil'' punk confessing, and that is something, but so far the judicial system in Aruba isn''t issuing an arrest warrent...

He murdered her...and I fear he''s getting away with it. Please, someone prove me wrong!

 

[Stephanie]

There are too many loopholes, stories, and lies. No one, except for him, will know exactly what happened. He is a psychopath (or sociopath, whichever it is). The fact that he could have the audacity to say that he looses no sleep over this is astonishing. In the back of my mind, since this all happened, I have always thought that his lawyer father has had some hand in this - whether he really knows what happened or if he even helped hide/move the body. There is no knowing. And seeing what the family has gone through is just awful.

Penn- That is a harsh statement. Although, I did go to school around that same area and completely understand what you are saying.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Just wanted to acknowledge that yes, some rich kids do use drugs. I still say that girls who make straight A''s, are involved in extracurricular activities, and get college scholarships usually aren''t the drug users.

 

[diamondfan]

I do not think she was a habitual user. I am sure she was a smart and good kid, who, on a school trip without much adult supervision, felt safer letting loose. Of course she never anticipated what would occur. And he is a scumbag, he is so involved and knows it all, yet could care less about having left her like garbage and knowing her parents have been suffering does not impact him in the slightest. He is scary to me, no remorse, no regret, no feelings towards her at all...just relief to be getting away with it. I hope he rots in jail...but who knows if justice will prevail.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

One thing my college age daughter said at the time this happened was why didn''t her friends stop her?!!! Presumably, they must have all been in no condition to reason well. I did hear somewhere the other day that her friends did try to tell her not to go with those boys. But my daughter was adamant that she and her friends would never let each other get into that situation. Those other kids have really been protected from the media, haven''t they? I haven''t seen any of them give an interview about what happened when Natalee left that bar.

 

[diamondfan]

The mom was talking about having a buddy system with friends. I am sure they just all felt comfortable and safe, and were off doing their own stuff too. Maybe they all did a bit too much partying and just were not thinking clearly. He was a local boy, son of a prominent man, and maybe in asking around they felt he was safe to go with. I am sure she did not feel unsafe with him, unless she was incapacitated. I hear horror stories about people slipping stuff into someone''s drink at a frat party or bar, so surely if she turned away or left her drink anyone could have done that. Even as an adult I keep my drink in my hands and never pick up a drink after I put it down.

 

[Anastasia]

I think there is a huge coverup going on in Aruba. There is no way this kid has "baffled the authorities" all this time.

I found the interview really disturbing. Especially when Joran commented that when she went non-responsive, he started (or almost started) crying. I thought for a moment that he had some kind of conscience. But he then stated he was crying thinking "why is this happening to me?" What exactly was happening to HIM, other than getting caught doing something he clearly thought he needed to hide? I shudder to think of what he might have done to her.

I feel awful for her family.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 2/8/2008 11:30:02 PM
Author: Anastasia
I think there is a huge coverup going on in Aruba. There is no way this kid has ''baffled the authorities'' all this time.

I found the interview really disturbing. Especially when Joran commented that when she went non-responsive, he started (or almost started) crying. I thought for a moment that he had some kind of conscience. But he then stated he was crying thinking ''why is this happening to me?'' What exactly was happening to HIM, other than getting caught doing something he clearly thought he needed to hide? I shudder to think of what he might have done to her.

I feel awful for her family.

Actually, the quote was more like, "Why does this $hit always happen to me"? And that "always" was questioned on Greta Van Susteren''s show. Like, how many things have actually happened? And what were they?? Makes you really wonder....

And of course, the total self absorption of the comment doesn''t go unnoticed.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Lets get honest here...

First of all Natalee''s mother goes on TV all the time talking about what a "good, wholesome, moral" daughter Natalee was. But the truth is Natlee put herself in a very dangerous situation that night. She took drinks from strange boys, she left the security of her friends, she got in the car with these boys, and she went off the have sex with a stranger. Any of these senario''s on there own are bad enough, but when you add them together, the combo of them is just plain stupid!!! Of course she didn''t deserve to be killed for these actions, but there is a lot to be said for her behavior that night as I am sure it is not the first time she partook in questionable acts. If I had been her mother, there is no way I would send my child to another country, even for her graduation...the world is a dangerous place, and a 17 year old could not possibly have the mental capacity to navigate a country where the rules of conduct are completely different...of course she went wild--there, she was allowed too!

When I was in HS...I remember the cheerleaders coming to school still drunk from the weekend. A lot is to be said for the company one keeps...

I think Joran will answer for his crime, either now or to a higher athority later on...

 

[krisvrn]

Gosh I feel so sad for the parents but IMHO, I don''t think it''s appropriate to send children at this age on these types of trips. Most are not responsible or mature enough.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 3/28/2008 9:48:52 PM
Author: krisvrn
Gosh I feel so sad for the parents but IMHO, I don''t think it''s appropriate to send children at this age on these types of trips. Most are not responsible or mature enough.

I disagree. I went to Europe with my twin sister when we were 17-we left high school a few weeks early our senior year and skipped graduation. We met up with an exchange student we had hosted our junior year in her hometown of Prague, and then all three of us traveled around Europe for 2 months together.

It was really a defining moment in my life, and I learned so much about the world as well as myself. I am so glad I had the opportunity to experience that, and I really think most 17 and 18 year olds should do something like that before they start college.

I think blaming the victim is pretty off base. Think about how many high school graduates, both male and female, travel somewhere after they graduate, most likely drink and possibly have one night stands, and come home just fine. Probably 99.9% of them return home in one piece.

The boys Natalee Holloway went off with were clearly sociopaths, and that''s the bottom line. Plus, who knows if they didn''t drug her or something before she even left with them? No one who wasn''t directly involved with the crime really knows what happened. I do hope that boy gets what''s coming to him, though. In my opinion, his parents are the ones people should be attacking. They have gone to great lengths to keep him from being prosecuted for something he clearly did and have made horrible comments about the case.

 

[rainbowtrout]

PennQuaker--I also went to MBES and JHS, but I was there for MBHS as well. You ended up at Penn? I MUST know you, I went there too and not that many people from our system go up north....

Anyway, yes, FI''s younger brother went to school with her as well. Even if she were an immature, drunk off her bum 18 yr old, it doesn''t justify murder, period. Her parents, however, should have kept her at home or gone with her--these were not the "educational" Europe trips, it is understood that these are party and get drunk trips.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 2/8/2008 12:57:29 AM
Author: pennquaker09

Date: 2/6/2008 8:17:45 PM

Author: diamondseeker2006

Date: 2/6/2008 9:46:25 AM


Author: Ellen


I think the truth is finally starting to come out. Only it''s my personal opinion Joran has left out one small detail, like, how she really died. It is just not human nature to have somone in front of you become unresponsive, and you don''t go screaming for help, but instead dump the body in the ocean and go to bed.



Not. Buying. It.

Ditto. Girls just don''t ordinarly drink a little too much and die. My guess is that he either had given her a date rape drug or else he killed her when he raped her. She was an A student with a college scholarship and I do not for one minute think she was a drug user. I think she was majorly naive about what could happen to her if she lost control by drinking too much, though. Of course, if they gave her other things, then it might have been beyond her control.



I am so thankful for her parents that they at least found out most of what really happened. It must have been hell to have had no idea.

Well, even though we moved from Mountain Brook when I started high school, I had friends and cousins that did attend MBHS. This is the most affluent high school in the state of Alabama. The kids there as well as those in Vestavia and Hoover(where I went to school) have the means to get their hands on alcohol and drugs. I know, I was pretty much the designated driver because I didn''t drink. Everyone thinks that the honors students are the ones that don''t do drugs or drink, well these are the kids that are more likely to participate in those kinds of activities. Between my high school experiences, going to Tulane and the semester I spent Harvard, I have no hesitation saying that it''s the rich kids that do the drinking and the drugs. It''s pretty much common knowledge. So, I mean if it''s happening at home, of course it''s going to happen when you''re somewhere like Aruba or Cabo San Lucas. People there think they have the most perfect little Christian kids, when in actuality, THEY ARE THE WORST ONES.

Well, yes, I know exactly the kids you are talking about---and Natalie was one of them, but dying for being an annoying religious hypocrite seems a bit harsh.