Need help Did I make the right choice?

[AshuraBoy]

Hello friends!

I've finally decided to pop the question to my girl - and my god, what an intense experience it has been looking for the right stone!! I finally decided on one, but I was wondering if anyone could give me their opinion on this particular stone I found in Antwerp. I haven't paid yet, so any opinion would be much appreciated!! The ring will be like one of the videos (my preference goes to a 6-prong) setting.

My first concern is that it's HRD graded (is this as accurate as GIA/IGI?). I've been told by the owner that this is a SUPER deal, unmatched price (€ 3380 for the full ring) but I'm doubting a bit about the cut proportions as everyone online says to not go anything less than Excellent. The H color looked white to me.

Video of Stone under normal light:

https://imgur.com/KMghJ3q

Video of Stone under store light:

https://imgur.com/a/8A5qDpv

please help!!

 

[Tourmaline]

This is a strangely cut stone! The crown angle is very high, and the excessive depth to go with the 58% table give this very bizarre proportions. The HCA tool doesn’t hate this diamond, it gives is a 1.2, which is in the acceptable range. It’s an odd cut.

I’ve never heard of HRD.

Congratulations on having found your partner, though!

 

[Kaycee2018]

Have you run the proportions through the HCA calculator? https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

It is cut very deep and does not meet PS standards. Here is a link explaining the recommended proportion:

Diamond Proportions

The physics of light-behavior within a diamond are reliably consistent, which means proportions measurements can be useful.

www.pricescope.com

 

[DejaWiz]

I would be inclined to say that it is not a well cut nor well graded diamond.

Diamonds.net - Grading the Graders

RAPAPORT... No two diamonds are alike and it seems neither are their grading certificates. A survey by RapNet – the Rapaport Diamond Trading Network, found significant differences between laboratories grading the same diamond. While there is a common language used in the grading of diamonds,...

www.diamonds.net

More dramatic differences were apparent in other stones. For example, a 1.01 carat stone was graded as K color, SI1 clarity by both GIA and IGI, whereas EGL Israel graded it a G, VS1, a difference of 4 color grades and 2 clarity grades. A different 1.01 carat diamond was found to be F, I1 by GIA and IGI, but was graded as D, SI1 by EGL Israel and EGL Hong Kong, while HRD graded it to be F, SI2.

The 40.0/37.7/58 combo (pavilion angle/crown angle/table width) is not well proportioned...it would be way out of bounds for both GIA Excellent and AGS ideal...AGS Ideal being more strict than GIA Excellent criteria.

Cut Estimator – Diamond Screener

www.diamondscreener.com

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

Here is a link explaining the recommended proportion:

Diamond Proportions

The physics of light-behavior within a diamond are reliably consistent, which means proportions measurements can be useful.

www.pricescope.com

From that link, there is a table with recommended proportions. If you are dealing with shop/jeweler, see if they can get you something within these proportions and read the link above to learn more about ideal diamond proportions.

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Just a note on HRD the lab - it is generally considered at par with GIA at least in Europe. In India for example, HRD is preferred over AGS and even IGI in some cases. In the US they have no real presence so most users here may be sceptical. I wouldn’t be overly concerned by the lab itself.

that being said, the stone is cut weirdly. If the HCA is giving it a 1.2 I’m actually kind of confused. Can you get advanced images so we can see whether it’s leaky or whether this is a bizarre combo of angles that somehow work?

I don’t really like the idea of purchasing a VG cut stone, but if it’s a well performing stone and the price is right… maybe?? I’m confused honestly.

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

This is a strangely cut stone! The crown angle is very high, and the excessive depth to go with the 58% table give this very bizarre proportions. The HCA tool doesn’t hate this diamond, it gives is a 1.2, which is in the acceptable range. It’s an odd cut.

It is an odd cut! I wonder if it is the very low 40PA that helps it. Perhaps it complements that very high CA and so the HCA hasn't given it a fail.

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

I've been told by the owner that this is a SUPER deal, unmatched price (€ 3380 for the full ring) but I'm doubting a bit about the cut proportions as everyone online says to not go anything less than Excellent.

Although the overall price may seem low especially for a 0.9ct H VS2 including ring, the diamond has a very high total depth of 63.3%, meaning that you lose a lot of face up spread. You end up with a diamond that has a face up diameter similar to a well cut 0.8 ct.

 

[lovedogs]

I wouldn't buy this stone. The proportions are very odd, and it will look smaller than the carat weight because of the deep cut. I would ask the jeweler to find you something that sticks within the proportions given above.

 

[mwilliamanderson]

The stone appears dark around the edges and under the table. Not a lot of good light return going on there at all. Sorry.

 

[AshuraBoy]

Thankyou everybody, I appreciate all of your responses and time so much!! I thought the clear and crisp arrows I saw were a good sign! And seller convinced me that the ideal properties above were just numbers and a VG could sometimes look nicer. But €3400 is a lot of money for me, and I’m planning to buy a stone once, so I’m very glad I’ve asked here in this chat!

I get to see a smaller stone of 0.77ct this week that’s supposed to be triple ex. (Graded GIA). Color F, SI1. Can I assume this would be a better quality stone thus choice? I’d be going down from 0.90ct to 0.77ct for the same price.

 

[AshuraBoy]

The stone appears dark around the edges and under the table. Not a lot of good light return going on there at all. Sorry.

I thought the dark arrows were a good sign! But when I move the stone in light it stays a bit dark. Thank you for your time!!

 

[AshuraBoy]

Although the overall price may seem low especially for a 0.9ct H VS2 including ring, the diamond has a very high total depth of 63.3%, meaning that you lose a lot of face up spread. You end up with a diamond that has a face up diameter similar to a well cut 0.8 ct.

Thanks for your opinion & time!! The overall price for stone + pave with diamonds sounded really good to me too. I get to see a 0.77ct, F, SI1 with triple exc. (graded by GIA) for around the same price (also + pave with diamonds). Would you think this would be a better choice if the diameter of the 0.9ct would be around 0.8ct?

 

[AshuraBoy]

I wouldn't buy this stone. The proportions are very odd, and it will look smaller than the carat weight because of the deep cut. I would ask the jeweler to find you something that sticks within the proportions given above.

I’ll definitely do that - thank you very much!

 

[lovedogs]

I wouldn't look at anything without knowing the specific numbers. GIA XXX is not enough to guarantee a well cut stone (unfortunately), as it is a very broad category. Make sure you are only considering stones that fall into the numbers suggested above.

PS. Dark arrows are not the problem here--the issue with the stone you are considering is that the overall stone itself looks dark (likely because it isn't reflecting light well due to being strangely cut).

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

Thanks for your opinion & time!! The overall price for stone + pave with diamonds sounded really good to me too. I get to see a 0.77ct, F, SI1 with triple exc. (graded by GIA) for around the same price (also + pave with diamonds). Would you think this would be a better choice if the diameter of the 0.9ct would be around 0.8ct?

I wouldn't look at anything without knowing the specific numbers. GIA XXX is not enough to guarantee a well cut stone (unfortunately), as it is a very broad category. Make sure you are only considering stones that fall into the numbers suggested above.

PS. Dark arrows are not the problem here--the issue with the stone you are considering is that the overall stone itself looks dark (likely because it isn't reflecting light well due to being strangely cut).

I agree with the comment above and that GIA XXX is too broad to assume that it will be well cut for sure with knowing the specifics. There are sellers who might try to convince you that GIA XXX immediately means it is the best but because within that grading there is quite a range, so it isn't always true.

Stick to the proportions mentioned above and try to get a better understanding of cut before your next visit to see stones. That way you go in having some idea of what to look for and when to reject a stone. Better still, also ask the seller to give you stones within those parameters to look at.

There is a chance that the 0.77ct F SI1 you are going to see will be better but we'll need more details to assess. In addition to checking that it looks nice with crisp arrows, you want to make sure the stone is cut properly to proportions (refer to earlier post on diamond proportions) and face up the size it should for its carat weight. In terms of face up size, a 0.77ct will generally be approx 5.9mm +/- 0.05mm in diameter. Here is an example of a 0.77ct F SI1 from a super ideal vendor for reference:

Diamond | 0.770 ct F SI1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4419245

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 0.770 carat F color SI1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4419245

www.whiteflash.com

You will see that it is a beautiful diamond and all numbers fit within those suggested proportions.

 

[AshuraBoy]

Hello everybody!

I just want to say a BIG THANKYOU to everyone here helping me out with such a big and expensive decision. I really appreciate you taking your time to evaluate my options!!

I've got offered another option, it's a bit smaller at 0,77ct (F), SI1, with triple excl. (GIA) for €3200,- including pave setting (with small vvs E diamonds). I understand that even a triple excl. cut doesn't necesarily mean it's a great cut so I'd love to have your input on this certifcate. HCA gives me a score of 4.8.

Not all parameters fall in the recommended properties given by you above, but is it too far off from it? If I had to choose between my 2 options (the above 0,90ct vs this 0,77ct) for around the same price. Would the 0.77ct be the way to go??

I'm so confused!!

 

[AshuraBoy]

I agree with the comment above and that GIA XXX is too broad to assume that it will be well cut for sure with knowing the specifics. There are sellers who might try to convince you that GIA XXX immediately means it is the best but because within that grading there is quite a range, so it isn't always true.

Stick to the proportions mentioned above and try to get a better understanding of cut before your next visit to see stones. That way you go in having some idea of what to look for and when to reject a stone. Better still, also ask the seller to give you stones within those parameters to look at.

There is a chance that the 0.77ct F SI1 you are going to see will be better but we'll need more details to assess. In addition to checking that it looks nice with crisp arrows, you want to make sure the stone is cut properly to proportions (refer to earlier post on diamond proportions) and face up the size it should for its carat weight. In terms of face up size, a 0.77ct will generally be approx 5.9mm +/- 0.05mm in diameter. Here is an example of a 0.77ct F SI1 from a super ideal vendor for reference:

Diamond | 0.770 ct F SI1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4419245

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 0.770 carat F color SI1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4419245

www.whiteflash.com

You will see that it is a beautiful diamond and all numbers fit within those suggested proportions.

Hi Diamond_Enthusiast!!

I've just received the certificate for the 0.77ct, the HCA report gives me a score of 4.8. I was wondering if the parameters are way too off from the ideal proportions given above. Could you please give me your 2cents on this stone?

If I would have to choose between the 0.90ct and this 0.77ct, would this be better value/quality for around my budget of (3200EUR)? Or do you recommend looking further?

 

[AllAboardTheBlingTrain]

Imo this is also not a good stone. Combination of a steep crown and a super
steep pav plus the greater depth 62.9… it’s not what I would go for. I could be wrong.

A micropave setting on Blue Nile is around 850-950eur to start with. Assuming 900eur as an average price, your stone budget is now 2300eur all in.

This is the best I saw at BN which gets you to 0.8 which would be all taxes, duties etc inclusive. It has an inclusion on the table but you could check if that is eye clean at the size. However the spread is much bigger than this 0.77 - it’s 6.1mm vs 5.8mm.

https://www.bluenile.com/be/en/diamond-details/LD16887507?irgwc=1&utm_campaign=Blue+Nile+Diamond+Inventory+-+Auto+Upload+Ad&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=PriceScope

This one is 0.74 but G SI1, and spread is 5.85mm, so close to the 0.77 but much better cut.

https://www.bluenile.com/be/en/diamond-details/LD17198953?irgwc=1&utm_campaign=Blue+Nile+Diamond+Inventory+-+Auto+Upload+Ad&utm_medium=affiliate&utm_source=PriceScope

I just checked BN for now. There are likely to be better options elsewhere, if you’re open to buying online.

 

[Double E]

Apologies if I have missed anything from the whole thread, but is a pave ring a must for you? And are there any flexibility in your budget?

I am fully aware that buying your girl the engagement diamond is like a impossible mission, I went through it especially if it’s our first buy! The most important thing is in the end pick a gorgeous one~ So I have to honestly say that the second stone offered still doesn’t look good…Contradictory to what the owner you have been dealing said, proportions is not just numbers, it determines the play of light of the diamond, however, it’s still not the whole story but only the admission ticket of the whole game. Because they are averaged numbers, not to mention we are still out of the suggested and safe (if we don’t term it “ideal”) proportion range on the 2nd stone.

Will you consider changing direction a bit making some sort of compromise in some aspects, like colour, size, ring style or cost so that we get closer to a beautiful gem?

 

[tyty333]

The poster has opened a new thread on this latest stone...you might want to post your opinion here:

Need advice on this Diamond (Certificate) Please Help! :)

Hello everybody! :) I'm so grateful to be part of this forum, this community helped me out so much with my big and expensive decision!! I'm honestly overwhelmed with this whole process but you all help me out so much, THANKYOU!! :kiss2: I've got offered another option, it's at 0,77ct (F)...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

Hi Diamond_Enthusiast!!

I've just received the certificate for the 0.77ct, the HCA report gives me a score of 4.8. I was wondering if the parameters are way too off from the ideal proportions given above. Could you please give me your 2cents on this stone?

If I would have to choose between the 0.90ct and this 0.77ct, would this be better value/quality for around my budget of (3200EUR)? Or do you recommend looking further?

Sorry but I think you are better off continuing your search.

The main issue here is the combination of the a steeper crown angle of 35 combined with a very steep pavilion angle of 41.4 (small changes of this angle has a huge impact unfortunately). The crown angle of 35 is good if matched with a pavilion angle of 40.6 to even up to 40.8 so long as the lower halves is 80% (which it is for this stone). However, the 41.4 pavilion angle is too steep for this stone to have good light return/performance. The overall depth also should not exceed absolute max 62.5% (prefer under 62.3%) and this stone is at 62.9%.

The HCA score is designed as a tool to help you reject stones (when the score is above 2) that are likely to perform poorly. Again, the HCA tool has also confirmed the recommendation to reject this stone with a score of 4.8.

Has your seller been able to provide you with other options that are within the recommended proportions?

Would you consider buying the stone online? Members here would be able to help you find a beautiful stone online if you are willing. The super ideal vendors we recommend are US based, however there are also reputable companies like Blue Nile that European members seem to like, I believe taxes are factored in for them in the purchase making it easier to import.

If you prefer to use a local seller, perhaps some European based members can help recommend a local jeweler or store for you if you let us know the city/country you can shop from? Although most members here are US based, there would be members from EU here too.

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

Here is a snapshot from that recommended proportions link to help you see the recommended crown and pavilion angle combinations and how they translate to the appearance of the diamond.

You want to aim for the All Around column (green) if possible, the Firey Balanced (amber) or the Bright Balanced (yellow) can be nice stones too.

 

[Tourmaline]

Neither of the stones you’ve shown us are a good choice. Please buy a diamond somewhere else than the place where they have shown you these two as your only options. Are you open to purchasing online?

 

[AshuraBoy]

From that link, there is a table with recommended proportions. If you are dealing with shop/jeweler, see if they can get you something within these proportions and read the link above to learn more about ideal diamond proportions.

I've showed this to him, and he said it was absolute bullshit lol. I'm happy I asked you guys

 

[AshuraBoy]

Neither of the stones you’ve shown us are a good choice. Please buy a diamond somewhere else than the place where they have shown you these two as your only options. Are you open to purchasing online?

Thankyou for letting me know! Yes, I'll be looking at other options online. Perhaps I should go for a solitaire ring instead of pave so I have some more room to spent on the actual diamond.

 

[AshuraBoy]

Here is a snapshot from that recommended proportions link to help you see the recommended crown and pavilion angle combinations and how they translate to the appearance of the diamond.

You want to aim for the All Around column (green) if possible, the Firey Balanced (amber) or the Bright Balanced (yellow) can be nice stones too.

I'll be trying to look on Blue Nile / James Allen for within these parameters. Thank you so much!

 

[DejaWiz]

I've showed this to him, and he said it was absolute bullshit lol. I'm happy I asked you guys

Have your jeweler contact Holloway Diamonds and ask for Garry: he's the creator of the chart and inventor of both the Ideal-Scope and the ASET (used by AGS). After about 10 minutes, your jeweler will probably hang up in tears after getting schooled hard.

Our Heritage

Learn About Holloway Diamonds, We have been providing the highest quality diamonds to our customers for nearly half a century.

www.hollowaydiamonds.com.au

 

[Diamond_Enthusiast]

I've showed this to him, and he said it was absolute bullshit lol. I'm happy I asked you guys

Wow his reaction says it all! Knowledgeable customers are not an easy sale opportunity I guess. Luckily you found out before the purchase! If he thinks this is all bullsh!t, you can find a nice AGS 000/GIA XXX stone within these parameters online and be far better off

 

[Tourmaline]

We can help you find one. What’s your budget, and what would you like to find?