New LIW Intro

[Ravenne]

Well, I've posted here a few times, but I figure I may as well introduce myself formally..

My boyfriend and I have been together for just under 3 years now (anniversary in February). I'm 23, he's 21. We definitely want to get married and have been talking about it since around our first anniversary or so. Originally we were waiting until he was done with undergrad to get engaged (I'm already done, he's got another year and a half) and move in together because his parents have said that they'll cut funding once he does. Which is fine. Our apartments are less than a 5 minute walk from each other (same complex). So originally our plan was in about a year, we'd start looking at rings and he'd propose sometime around his graduation.

However, he wants to go to law school (which I'm all for, of course). Up until recently, his parents have said that them helping him pay for it was a given, but now apparently it hinges on us not getting engaged or moving in together. We're pretty mad about that, for obvious reasons and we're going to keep trying to get them to change their minds and do what they promised without interfering in our lives, but he thinks it won't happen. Even though living with me would be better for him in getting through law school because his roommates are seriously distracting (playing video games all day, partying every weekend, etc) and it would be cheaper and he would eat better because I actually cook real food. Lol. Whatever. We're hoping they'll see it our way and not force us to go $50,000 into debt, but who knows (thankfully I managed to make it through college without debt and he'll get through undergrad the same way. So it's just law school that's the issue).

Anyway, I'm likely to be on this list for a while (like... 4 years). But I wanted to go ahead and add myself.

I have already told him what I want (it's been shifting a lot recently because of this forum, but I think I've decided on a round or oval white sapphire. The setting... I'm going back and forth between a delicate halo (oval) or a royal crown-ish setting (round). So.... I know what I want when the time comes, and he's already made it clear that I'll be picking out my ring anyway, so I'm not worried there. Lol

I've already learned a lot from you ladies, and I hope I learn loads more!

 

[MissStepcut]

If he gets out of law school with only $50k in debt, he'll be a lucky law grad indeed!

As a law student myself, I feel the need to give some unsolicited advice here: law schools award financial aid based pretty much entirely on two numbers: your GPA and your LSAT score. If he does well on the LSAT (which is a very study-able test, I improved my score from a 158 on my first practice test to a 173 for the real thing), he could find himself with lots of options for free school. Since you're graduating and presumably going to be working, he could very well end up graduating debt-free without any help from his parents. Very freeing, if it is coming with lots of strings.

 

[Ravenne]

I honestly don't know how much law school costs, I just threw out a number. Lol. Although I do know that the school he's looking at is on the less expensive side. And yes, I would be working full time and he'll probably keep a part time job just because he's a workaholic. He thinks that the school he wants to go to is really stingy about financial aid though, so he's jumpy about turning down $45,000. And I am too. We're both very financially conservative. :p

Although what you've said gives me hope that he'll be able to get financial aid that's not loans and we can tell his parents to get over it and let their son go.

 

[MissStepcut]

Well he should definitely not look at only one school. For a lot of reasons.

Again, I know you didn't ask, but I know a fair bit about this stuff, so forgive me if you don't want to hear it.

1) The average law school grad graduates with six figures of debt.
2) Many law grads at lower tier schools can't get a job as a lawyer, at all, much less one that pays decently.
3) Students who go to top schools disproportionately get the best jobs. Around half the graduates of top 10 law schools are making over $100k a year, while only a handful of grads from lower tier schools will make that sort of money. The legal industry is VERY feast or famine. He should choose a school very carefully, and only after seriously and deeply investigating the job prospects from any school he is considering paying money to attend.
4) In my opinion, no one should work during 1L. It's a very hard year and the grades from that year are the most important thing in your whole career. In fact the ABA puts a limit on how many hours you're even permitted to work.

So that's law school generally. Now, onto negotiating for aid.

Lots of schools have a reputation for being stingy if you don't have leverage. It's important to apply broadly so you have leverage. After working my butt off to do well on the LSAT, I went from being in a position of being able to get into a law school to being able to get into law schools with good job prospects. I applied to all the schools in the top 30 of the U.S. News and World Reports ranking. Plenty of those schools, I never really thought I would attend. I was fishing for scholarships. I got some offers, the best of which was about half-tuition reduction at a top 15 school. I told the school I really wanted to go to (also a top 15 school) about this aid offer from a "peer" school, and they gave me about a 1/3 tuition reduction in the total price. Not as good as the other school, but they never would have given me that otherwise. And I wasn't seriously willing to go to the school that had offered me the 1/2 tuition scholarship, so it wasn't too hard to turn down.

Now, if I had wanted to go to a school outside of the top 15 schools, I probably could have gotten a better deal, but job prospects are the most important thing, so trying to get a full-ride wasn't really my goal.

Of course none of this is relevant to you just yet. He should probably start studying hard for the LSAT right now and sign up to take it in June, re-take it in October if he doesn't score well, and then apply for schools in November.

Hopefully he can use a strong scholarship at a good school to buy himself some independence.

 

[MissStepcut]

One last resource: here is the rankings of law schools along with their GPA and LSAT ranges. If he is above the 75th percentile for GPA and LSAT, he should be competitive for getting dramatically reduced or free tuition. So, for example, if he wanted to go to Boston College, if he could get a GPA of over 3.7 and score a 167 or better on the LSAT, he would be competitive for a big scholarship.

 

[Ravenne]

Well he wants to go into politics in our state and everyone he's asked has said that he needs to go to a law school in-state for that. So that limits his options a good bit. The school he wants to go to is pretty well respected (I just asked him, and he said it was around 50 in the nation) although he's willing to go to any in our state as long as the money works out. Heck, if he gets a free ride or close to it, he'll probably take that no matter where it is. Lol. He's looking around, at any rate, and he'll be taking the LSAT next summer, I think.

 

[MissStepcut]

Yup, like I say, it's okay to have your heart set on one school, but to negotiate for aid, you need to be willing to apply to "peer" schools. Tell him good luck studying on for the LSAT and do lots of timed practice tests!

 

[MrsDrP]

Hey Ravenne! Welcome to the list

First I want to say that I think it's awesome that both of you put your education first and that he wants to continue to law school! At the same time, I can understand how your situation with his schooling and his parents is frustrating. IMO, I think it would be easier for the two of you to live together during that time because:

1. He's going to be super busy and probably stressed, so having you there to "take care of him" (emotional support, cooking him real food, doing his laundry sometimes, and helping him in any way that you can...) will take some of that stress off of him. I'm not saying you need to be his mother, but I think you know what I mean.

2. It might give him more time to study since he won't really have to set aside time to go over to your apartment/you go over to his---you'll be roomies! You'll get to sleep next to him every night and wake up to him every morning I lived with my ex, and while the relationship failed for other reasons, living with him really brought things to a whole new and deeper level! We started to work on things as a team and it just really deepened our respect for each other!

3. Instead of having 2 apartments, both of you will be living in one, so yall can split up the bills and save money!

As far as the situation with his parents, I don't understand why they wouldn't help him pay for school if he was living with/engaged to you. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that, and I hope things work out. You never know what the future may hold!

 

[MissStepcut]

Well he wants to go into politics in our state and everyone he's asked has said that he needs to go to a law school in-state for that. So that limits his options a good bit. The school he wants to go to is pretty well respected (I just asked him, and he said it was around 50 in the nation) although he's willing to go to any in our state as long as the money works out. Heck, if he gets a free ride or close to it, he'll probably take that no matter where it is. Lol. He's looking around, at any rate, and he'll be taking the LSAT next summer, I think.

BTW that's not entirely accurate, I suspect. Obama went to Harvard and didn't have any trouble breaking into politics in Illinois anyway And if you look at the resumes of Congress and Senate, you'll see a lot of local state schools, but also a lot of prestigious law schools. Better schools open more doors in and out of politics.

But anyway the most important thing is financial independence, for both of you.

And I think Mrs. DP is right: having someone at home to help your life run smoothly is a huge help. My SO and I are both law students, so neither of us is exactly taking care of the other, but dividing up the "life tasks" frees us both up to do well in school. It's obviously totally their prerogative if they don't want to help with school (and to be honest, as a parent, I would stop bankrolling a child who was co-habitating with a romantic partner too; and wouldn't pay for law school either way) but there are a lot of reasons you two might choose to co-habitate for your own benefit. Luckily, law school is one of the times when you have a lot of control over how much you have to pay and where you attend, by getting a good GPA and good LSAT score.

 

[MrsDrP]

And I think Mrs. DP is right: having someone at home to help your life run smoothly is a huge help. My SO and I are both law students, so neither of us is exactly taking care of the other, but dividing up the "life tasks" frees us both up to do well in school. It's obviously totally their prerogative if they don't want to help with school (and to be honest, as a parent, I would stop bankrolling a child who was co-habitating with a romantic partner too; and wouldn't pay for law school either way) but there are a lot of reasons you two might choose to co-habitate for your own benefit. Luckily, law school is one of the times when you have a lot of control over how much you have to pay and where you attend, by getting a good GPA and good LSAT score.

Yeah, I see what you mean about the bolded part. My SO is in medical school and his parents didn't pay for that (even though his parents are wealthy and I think they could have without a problem) He will be over a quarter of a million dollars in debt when he graduates, but I don't think he will have a problem paying it back. I assume the same applies for those in law school...most of the lawyers I know are pretty well off

From what I understand, peope in law school, med shcool, dental school, etc. don't just take out loans for tuition, but they take out a pretty large sum for "living expenses" as well. My SO can't work at all while in school, so he had to take out money to pay his mortgage, food, gas, bills, spending money, etc. along with money to cover tuition. Thus, if he is living with you and you have a full time job and can somewhat support him, it may cut down on the amount he will have to borrow!

Perhaps MissStepcut can further clarify this! I don't know much about law schoool, but I imagine that it is similar!

 

[MissStepcut]

MrsDP, it's definitely easier for M.D.s on average than law students on average. Most law grads will make $40-60k a year and really struggle with the debt or have to take advantage of some program that helps them with their debt. And that's if they get to be lawyers at all!

The people who go to great schools or are at the tippy top of their class will make $120k-160k at graduation and keep going up from there. So, if you win at law school, you could be better off than an MD, and if you lose, you'll probably be worse off than even the most modestly paid MD. It's really very cruel and it's why I bothered to write the wall-of-text above. I hate seeing people going into it unaware of how bimodal lawyer salaries are. It's pretty ugly out there. I was just talking to a friend of mine at Emory, which is a very respected school, and she said it's an absolute bloodbath there. Only around 15% of students are getting a well-paying job. But you better believe more than 15% have crushing debt.

ETA: As far as living expenses, we are definitely taking out loans for that, I mean, what choice do we have? But SO made ~$30k over the summer and I'll make close to that next summer and since we live together, that makes things a easier. He'll graduate with around $200k in debt (around $2500/month loan payment) and I'll graduate with $150k ($1500/month payment).

 

[atp223]

Miss Stepcut - I wish I had known you before I went to law school! Very sound advice .