nonreligious ceremony with religious guests

[misysu2]

I was raised Protestant, but now I don''t consider myself a religous person, but I believe in a god of some kind. My FI was raised Mormon, and now is pretty anti-religious. He doesn''t believe in a god and doesn''t want anything religious in our ceremony.

Which can be done. No problem.

But...I was a little surprised the other day that my FI said he actually expects all 150 of our guests to refrain from saying anything religious at the reception. Our families are both religious, and how can you control what people say? He gets really touchy about this subject and threatened to actually kick someone out of our reception for saying anything about God at our reception. WHAT?! Way to ruin our wedding, baby.

I know some people have negative feelings toward religion, but isn''t this over the line? How can I quell this from his side, and maybe do some damage control among our religious guests? Or do you think this will be something he won''t even be thinking about by the reception?

 

[Independent Gal]

It''s worth talking this over with your FI. I do think it''s over the line for the following reasons:

1) It is very intolerant in terms of important things like basic freedoms and basic rights. Freedom of religion is as important as freedom not to practice a religion. The idea that people should not be religious around him at a family gathering is, frankly, tyrannical. It''s like saying ''I am the King of this Wedding and in my Kingdom No One Shall Say Anything I Disagree With.'' That''s a little childish and even a little scary. It''s MORE than a little disrespectful to your guests.

I could see him not wanting to say grace over the meal as a collective thing, but to stop a guest from saying grace? I mean, think about that writ large.

2) It''s intellectually meek. The idea that no one is allowed to express an opinion or say something on the basis of a premise because you dislike it and don''t want to argue against it, that they can''t even SAY it, suggests that you are so insecure in your own position that you can''t stand to have someone disagree with you.

Why does his atheism require everybody else''s? So long as he is free not to practice, why can''t they be free to practice? As long as your guests are not interfering with your wedding in a real way, I fail to see how letting guests say grace, or accepting graciously a wish like ''May God grant you joy'' or whatever could really affect him.

I''d buy him a copy of John Stuart Mill''s famous defence of (among other things) atheism called ''On Liberty'' and see how he feels after that.

If he''s worried about religious speeches, who will it harm? Seriously.

But that''s just my humble opinion.

 

[Independent Gal]

... which is not to say I''d WANT to be arguing about religion on my wedding day. But the way to handle that is not to forbid people to mention it, but instead to politely decline taking up the subject.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

My FI and I are actively forbiding it at our wedding. He is not the believing sort and I am a neopagan. I think it is very disrespectful for the guests to bring religion into a wedding that the bride and groom do not count themselves as part of.
I don''t want blessings from a god I personally feel is vindictive on our wedding and my FI does not want them from a religion he does not respect.
Also, by doing that they say that they do not respect our beliefs. My uncle is a jesuit priest but he will not saying anything religious at the wedding because he knows I looked at his beliefs and felt they were wrong for me. He respects my choice and anyone who would give a religious speech for a nonreligious couple is being deeply disrespectful. If it were a Jewish wedding and a catholic relative stood up and talked about jesus blessing the marriage that would be inapropriate, so how is this different?
Certianly any relatives that want to should say grace, but they should respect your beliefs when toasting and at the ceremony.

 

[Independent Gal]

Hmmm... you do have a point there Brazen.

Confusing.

 

[Sabine]

Okay, this could totally be from the fact that I''ve only attended a handful of weddings in my adult life, but in my limited experience even when the ceremony has been religious, I haven''t noticed anything religious happening or being said at the reception. Is it common for guests to make religious proclamations during the reception? I don''t think I''ve even seen people saying grace to themselves. Do you know what in particular he is expecting the guests to do?

 

[deorwine]

Well... irish, I think it''s perfectly fair what you said, that in the actual ceremony and the toasts-- the public parts-- it seems perfectly reasonable to ask that people adhere to your beliefs. I mean, a religious couple wouldn''t want a ceremony that talked about the virtues of Satanism, right? But presumably you would be okay with one of the guests just saying to you, "May Jesus/Aphrodite/Muhammed/FlyingSpaghettiMonster bless your marriage." I mean, I don''t think that a Jewish couple would be offended if I said any of those to them, though they might think I was weird and a little uncouth. (On the other hand, I guess I''d be a little worried if someone said "May Satan bless your marriage," although that''s mostly because I''m not sure it''d be a compliment. If I knew beforehand the person was a Satanist I''d probably still be okay with it.)

I might have misunderstood the first post, but it seemed to me that the OP''s fiance wanted to outlaw even random expressions of religion like private grace and mentioning a god''s/bob''s blessings on their marriage even in a private venue and not a public forum like toasts. At least that''s what I got from "he actually expects all 150 of our guests to refrain from saying anything religious at the reception" -- unless all 150 are giving toasts, this seems to me in poor taste, for the reasons that IndependentGal pointed out.

 

[deorwine]

On the other hand, if his family is Mormon there is actually a not-so-low probability that they may make some weird statement in a public toast, or to you, about how it would be so great if you guys were religiously married in the temple under God''s covenant, or something like that, and if that is the sort of thing he is worried about, which seems quite likely, then I understand his fears. But by saying "no one at the ENTIRE reception can say ANYTHING religious" he is certainly not communicating his true fears, if that''s what he''s worried about... maybe you need to talk to him more about what *exactly* he is really worried about, and then you can take steps about it. Like I think it''s perfectly valid for people to be forbidden from making statements, even private ones, as to how it would be SO much better if you had gotten married in the temple because it''s God''s plan etc.

But I think only close family members would dare to say something rude like that anyway-- if his family''s bishop is being invited maybe he also needs to be warned-- friends won''t.

(I was raised Mormon too, so I know, though fortunately my parents were reasonable when I got married.)

 

[sumbride]

We''re having an entirely secular ceremony officiated by a Federal Judge. We aren''t using any hymns or religious music. We''d prefer to keep the word "God" out of all of the ceremony. As far as the toasts go, they''ll only be given by people who know us well enough to know that we would prefer they refrain from using the phrase "God bless you" and all of that. Random guests giving us their wishes? Well, we can''t do anything about that, and as we''re pulling off a secular ceremony in the middle of the bible belt, I would be really surprised if we didn''t hear at least half a dozen "God Bless You''s" from our guests but I know that is their way of wishing us well, not an actual blessing or curse.

My mom told me yesterday that she talked to her Methodist minister, who will be attending the wedding, how he felt about it being a secular wedding and he said he''s excited about coming to a wedding that he doesn''t have to perform and he knows it will be beautifiul and exactly what WE want. No worries from him about missing the big G, but then, Methodists are usually a little more reserved in their prosletyzing.

 

[littlelysser]

Date: 9/17/2007 8:27:00 PM
Author: brazen_irish_hussy
My FI and I are actively forbiding it at our wedding. He is not the believing sort and I am a neopagan. I think it is very disrespectful for the guests to bring religion into a wedding that the bride and groom do not count themselves as part of.
I don''t want blessings from a god I personally feel is vindictive on our wedding and my FI does not want them from a religion he does not respect.
Also, by doing that they say that they do not respect our beliefs. My uncle is a jesuit priest but he will not saying anything religious at the wedding because he knows I looked at his beliefs and felt they were wrong for me. He respects my choice and anyone who would give a religious speech for a nonreligious couple is being deeply disrespectful. If it were a Jewish wedding and a catholic relative stood up and talked about jesus blessing the marriage that would be inapropriate, so how is this different?
Certianly any relatives that want to should say grace, but they should respect your beliefs when toasting and at the ceremony.

I think there is a big difference between asking a priest/friends/family not to make a religious toasts or a speeches at your wedding...and something totally different from preventing anyone from saying anything religious...

Having a christian stand up and say proclaim that jesus blessed the marriage at a jewish wedding would certainly be inappropriate...but a christian person saying to the jewish couple, "god bless" or something like that, or a family that wanted to say grace quietly before they ate...well, I just don''t get how that is offensive at all...and I totally don''t get how it could be construed as grounds for kicking them out!

Misysu2 - seems like there is something deeper going on here with your FI and his religious history...ya know?

Just FYI, my DH is an atheist and I''m an agnostictypebutbelievesinsomething. Our families are both fairly religious. We got married a few weeks back and god wasn''t mentioned once during the reception....

 

[misysu2]

You''re right-- my FI has definite issues with his religious past that makes him who he is today. I"m sure we can keep our bridesmaids and groomsmen up to date, and I''m sure FI''s parents won''t say anything. I''m not exactly sure if he''s worried about people wishing him well or something bigger like a toast or something. I''ve tried to tell him that we can''t prevent people from saying anything, that''s life, and to just relax. They''re our family and friends and none of them would ever say anything mean to us on our wedding. He said he doesn''t want anyone throwing their religion in his face or imposing their religion on him. This is some issue he''s always had, but I''m just trying to be as cautious about this before the wedding because I don''t want to deal with it during!

He has really strong feelings on religion--maybe when I go home for the holidays to see my extended Protestant family, I can mention something about his upbringing and how we''d like to keep the wedding secular. They won''t be happy he''s not Christian, but I think they''d understand.

 

[hikerchick]

We are also having a secular wedding ceremony with no mention of God though we are having traditional ceremonial type things like unity candles and Hindu garland exchange, etc. All our readings are from Thoreau and Abbey and very tree-hugging hiker wedding related. I will be sure to let my feelings about keeping the wedding secular be known to those giving speeches and toasts so they can choose to respect my feelings on the matter.

However, both his family (Christians) and my family (Hindus) are mostly practicing folks with pretty strong religious feelings. They will likely say things like God Bless You, etc . . . and I feel that just as I ask them to respect my non-believing ways, I must respect them. I hope no one gives an entire speech about God but a private blessing or moment, well . . . hopefully the fact that they are invited makes them important part of our lives and so we can be accomodating and accepting.

Also, your FI shouldn''t cut his nose off to spite his face, it is afterall your wedding and the memries he creates will be yours to carry with you for the rest of your life. Maybe suggest to him that if he hears mention of God, that he smile politely and excuse himself from the conversation. If someone says "God Bless You", just let it slide off his shoulders. He doesn''t have to believe just because others do, ya know?

Anyway, good luck . . . it sure is a touchy issue.

 

[Julianna]

Date: 9/18/2007 1:25:04 AM
Author: deorwine
On the other hand, if his family is Mormon there is actually a not-so-low probability that they may make some weird statement in a public toast, or to you, about how it would be so great if you guys were religiously married in the temple under God''s covenant, or something like that, and if that is the sort of thing he is worried about, which seems quite likely, then I understand his fears. But by saying ''no one at the ENTIRE reception can say ANYTHING religious'' he is certainly not communicating his true fears, if that''s what he''s worried about... maybe you need to talk to him more about what *exactly* he is really worried about, and then you can take steps about it. Like I think it''s perfectly valid for people to be forbidden from making statements, even private ones, as to how it would be SO much better if you had gotten married in the temple because it''s God''s plan etc.

But I think only close family members would dare to say something rude like that anyway-- if his family''s bishop is being invited maybe he also needs to be warned-- friends won''t.

(I was raised Mormon too, so I know, though fortunately my parents were reasonable when I got married.)

Ok this is a bit silly. Hopefully they would keep their opinions on the matter to themselves, regardless of beliefs. I don''t see where there is a higher probability of being uncouth based solely upon their being Mormon. Sheez.

Anyway, I agree with everyone who says that other people''s wedding receptions aren''t really religious free-for-alls. Besides the odd "God Bless" (or Satan bless or what have you), I''ll bet you guys do ok.

 

[brazen_irish_hussy]

It isn''t just Mormons, but it is highly religious people and people in religions that tend towards prostyliztion. I have had far more problems with mormons, jahovah''s witnesses and pentacostals not respecting my beliefs than any other religion. That is not to say that is is only them however. I had a catholic nanny and she did everything she could to convert me, even though my parents told her not to. If she were to come to the wedding she would say something religious no matter how much I asked her not to. So it is not bash the mormon, but my experience has lead me to believe there is a real possiblilty that they would try to say something religious even when asked not too.

 

[misysu2]

Thanks for your input. I''m glad to hear that most receptions go stress-free for most secular weddings. I actually have a cousin getting married in October, and although it will be a religious ceremony, I''m going to check out how everyone on my side behaves during the reception. It may help me figure out if I need to do any damage control at all. I''m not worried about his family-- his religious family members are either so close to him they know better or too far removed to say a toast or anything public. I''m just finding that there''s always something new to worry about with regards to wedding planning! Oy!

 

[ljmorgan]

My husband and I had a completely non-religious ceremony, his parents are Catholic, mine are Mormon and we had no problems at all. I am not really sure when people would have interjected "religious sayings" into our wedding. Although judging from this thread, I must be lucky that my crazy Mormon parents didn''t stand up and say something ridiculous...

Your FI needs to relax. So what if someone says "god bless you?" I am not religious at all, but I take the statement at its value that someone cares about me and wishes me luck. I''m not really sure what advice I can give to you that will change your FI''s mind, but he should try not to take people''s well wishes as a personal affront. Now if they say "god condemns you, sinner" -- well, you may have a problem

I wouldn''t worry about this, chances are your wedding will go just fine!

 

[deorwine]

hee, Juliana and Lindsey, I did not mean to bash Mormons (I still consider myself one, actually, and still go to church, although I''m not the most devout in the world) although I realize it did kind of come across like I was-- my family, my Mormon friends, and my bishopric were all really lovely to me at my wedding to a Protestant and none of them said anything rude at all.

So on the other hand, I think I was scarred because when I was growing up, I once went to a wedding ceremony hosted by our bishop where he spent the whole (non-temple) ceremony talking about how great a temple marriage was. On the other hand, I was too young to realize it at the time, but it was a shotgun wedding, so maybe that was why he put such emphasis on it

The moral is maybe that it makes a lot of difference exactly where and with whom you grew up, what your attitudes are and what you worry about people saying with regards to religion, even if the majority of people of that religion wouldn''t DREAM of behaving in that way...