Only the Best Please

[kenny]

First post from a first time buyer who has learned enough to be dangerous.

One or two times in my life I have seen a diamond that blinded me from across the restaurant.
These were not large stones but they seemed to have built in batteries or nuclear reactors.
I want one of these magical super diamonds.
I want the best of the best.

Looks like I will be spending quite a premium for a H+A, D, FL or IF, 1 carat brilliant.
Tiffany lists 1 carat rings for 33K tops.
I figure you are paying over $10K of that 33K for the blue box.
No Thanks.

Bluenile does not list their stones as H+A.
Why not?

And their best, Signature collection, stones have AGS Certs online and also certs by another lab (GCAL Gem Certification & Appraisal Lab) which show photos.
When I look at thest top and bottom phototos I can see what lood like poor H+A patterns.
So am I right in assuming that if the stone is REALLY good it would show a good H+A pattern?
OR do they not use some special H+A set up to photograph is?


If I purchase a H+A viewer and walk into the diamond district in NY or LA will I be laughed out of the store?

I am in the USA.
Please name a few online diamond sellers which specialize in high end 1 carat stones?
I assume I just write a check for the listed price.
Nobody negotiates off one cent since the internet has resulted in competition that results in no-haggle pricing. Right or wrong?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/30/2005 5:54:47 PM
Author:kenny

My budget is 30K max so I think I will end up with about a 1 carat stone.

Crazy! or colored... or something.

Well, that was just... joking, you know.

Nothing wrong with D/IF. It looks like D/VS2 or like E/VS2, but that does not matter for you, no ?

Oh well. Blue Nile does not sell H&A diamonds. Just that simple. They do not claim to have H&A and never have as far as I can remember.

1 ct D/IF H&A is about 20k (and this because you asked for the most purist interpretation of H&A cut, as opposed to just visual impact). The same guys list a 1.5 carat with the same pedigree but no price listed... You might want to ask.

There is no shortage of super-ideal H&A providers around this forum. Those were from GoodOldGold ("Rhino" Jonathan posts here from them). But there is also Whiteflash, Niceice, Winkjones, Infinity Diamonds, Superbcert and more all specialising in diamond cut perfection. There aren't many D/IF listed at any given time (most of the time none at all) since these are not seen as the best deal. But since you asked for one, options should come up.

I don't think either the Net or anything could stop bargaining. You can definitely try. It is a bit awkward to bargain for the price of a "perfect" thing though.

Anyway, at least drop the "Flawless" bit 'cause all it takes is an invisible scratch first time someone touches that diamond to downgrade the "Flawlessness" to "IF". It takes a good bump to turn IF into SI or worse (meaning, slight damage from wear does affect the clarity grade).

Just my 0.2 worth ramble, of course

 

[pearcrazy]

A ring that blinds you from across the restaurant isn''t necessarily a D/IF-- you might be surprised to find that the color and clarity are all over the place. Unless you have your heart set on perfection in a D/IF/ hearts and arrows you can get your gal a whole lot more than a one carat diamond or get your one carat ideal cut for a whole lot less by going just a little lower in color and clarity with the same ideal cut.

 

[hoorray]

Good Old Gold seems to have several in the general quality range of what you are looking for. A D/IF runs just under $20k. A minor (and invisible to the eye) step to VVS drops the price $6k for a larger stone. Check out this 1.13 D/VVS2, -- super high brillancescope and great everything else. That headlight look you are looking for comes from optics of the cut, not the D/IF.

 

[kenny]

I forgot to mention, I prefer tension settings.

Are they safe?
What about the two party thing.
I assume I must buy the diamond from company X and then ship it to company Y for the tension setting.

Who do you recommend for tensions settings.
What about titaniaum or that black metal?

This diamond is for myself, a man.

 

[valeria101]

Oh! Ok... so you surely must know what you want - no second guessing of perfection over size or anything.

There are all sorts of stories about tension rings, but not that many. And faulty settings are exactly what makes insurance so useful. Anything can fail.

Ti should be safer, IMO, since the metal's properties are more suitable for tension setting than the usual precious metals. Tension settings are made of platinum and gold, but those need special metalurgical treatment to attain the needed springhiness and only a few makers do that (Gelin & Abaci, Steven Kretchmer, Niessing, Bunz... ).

You are right about the "production process" - either you or the jeweler will send a diamond out to be tension set. The catch here is that it may take some persuasion to make the respective jeweler accept your diamond as opposed to selling you theirs (which is aparently allot more lucrative than making setings). This reluctance to accept customer's diamonds (or third party's, whatever) does not seem to hold true for Titanium jewelry makers. I have yet to find one who insists on selling their own diamonds.

There are several Ti rings posted and talked about on this forum. One maker posts here: Bruce Boone from Boonerings.
There are hundreds others, of course.


About "that black metal"...
I am not sure what that is: both Ti and Zirconium are used to make tension rings and take black patina. Zirconium takes a somewhat deeper, velvety black and Ti ends up with a multicolour sheen over black, like some black pearls (not sure if black perals are hapy with the comparison though). The two are on offer side by side at Absolute Titanium

Hope the ranting is not uncalled for. Black metal & white diamond should make a very happy couple indeed !

 

[kenny]

So who buys the D, IFs or Flawless stones?
Bill Gates types ?
Idiots?
If nobody buys them there is little demand, so prices should fall, right?

As an aside have the D, IFs been a better investment percentage-wise comapred to lesser stones over the last 30 years because of their rarity, or was that already taken into account in the sky-high price they commanded at the time?

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/30/2005 8:22:45 PM
Author: kenny

If nobody buys them there is little demand, so prices should fall, right?

You sound like an economist

There is this joke saying that if an economist is told there's $100 bill on the road they'd pass by and argue that it can't be since if it was someone else should have picked it up.

Perhaps everyone who ever tried to buy a diamond had to decide the same as you: why anything else but D/IF is worth considering ? Now it is your turn.

Perhaps hurried perfectionists buy them.



I don't think diamonds make a decent investment unless you have where to sell them: D/IF or no D/IF. The prices you see are not from a market you can sell on.

High grades are just harder to sell because few would forego qualities that show for some that do not.

Data on the rarity of D/IF are not available to the public and have never been, aparently. GIA should know if their grades have anything to do with rarity and exactly what. They came up with this delightful value grid after all.

If you are after "something rare" and "perfect" finding out what that is might take a while. Unless you do go along with the system and buy that 1 carat D/IF AGS0 H&A after all.

Btw. AGS is changing their cut grades, so today's perfect cut may not be tomorrow's perfect cut... depending on how perfect it is.

Oh well, I mean no harm with the irony.


Take a look at this thread

 

[Mara]

In my opinion, people who buy D IF do so because they don't know any better. Well most of them, there are those who probably do know better but just don't care. There is this illusion of the perfect diamond which is D, FL which is the 'best' but in reality that's just the 'most expensive'. Other people who may buy D IF would be a Donald Trump, where money doesn't matter, I think his wife's ring is an E FL or something. Some people just have to have D IF/FL for that illusion of perfection, but as Val pointed out, wearing that stone daily will easily turn that FL/IF into a VVS1 over 20 years of time or similar. So why even bother when the eye cannot see anything at VVS or most times, VS anyway? I, myself, love a well graded SI...you can really save a bundle and no one knows the difference.

But for everyday people, money is always going to be an issue. Even if you have 20k to spend, that is still a 'budget'...so you should choose wisely.

You note sparkle from across the room, that is going to be CUT you are seeing, the diamond is well-cut. D IF has nothing to do with that part of the equation.

Focus on getting a well-cut, unbranded or branded H&A stone, AGS0 with spectacular numbers AND spectacular images (if you are buying online this is all you can use to gauge the stone!) from a vendor that is trusted and you will not go wrong. If you must have that icy D color fine, but at least drop the clarity to VVS which will save $$ and no one ...and I mean NO ONE will be the wiser that it's not IF or FL.

Oh and just a note for you...NO diamond is flawless. FL and IF are as close as you can get but EVERY diamond will have something inside of it, it just may not be visible without supreme magnification. So again, don't spend your $$ on that part of the stone, spend it on making sure cut is top notch...and you will have a stunning stone that gets noticed from across a room.

Good luck!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 4/30/2005 9

6

8 PM
Author: Mara

You note sparkle from across the room, that is going to be CUT you are seeing, the diamond is well-cut. D IF has nothing to do with that part of the equation.

Oh and just a note for you...NO diamond is flawless. FL and IF are as close as you can get but EVERY diamond will have something inside of it, it just may not be visible without supreme magnification. So again, don''t spend your $$ on that part of the stone, spend it on making sure cut is top notch...and you will have a stunning stone that gets noticed from across a room.

I emphatically agree with Mara''s comments here. If the goal is to get a ring that blows someone away from across the room, the key is CUT, CUT, and CUT.....in no particular order.

The color/clarity have nothing to do with the sparkle of a ring. If you want them for mental satisfaction, well then by all means go ahead, but if you want them because you think they increase the "sparkle" factor, think again. They don''t.

Stick with the best cut diamond you can find....that''ll do the trick. You can drop color/clarity to G/H and to VS2/SI1 and increase the size, and then it will REALLY get noticed from across a room.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 4/30/2005 7:55:54 PM
Author: kenny


This diamond is for myself, a man.

Kenny
your the man!!! i love your style

but not the D IF grade JMO.i been looking for a 2.5 ct H VS2 with the right "CUT" to get the most sparkles .a diamond vendor once told me,a D IF stone is one of the hardest to sell.

 

[fire&ice]

Is having the specs on paper of D/IF important to you? The beauty will be on paper, not necessarily transfered to the diamond.

Also, diamonds aren't for investment. But, less people are willing to pay the premium for the D/IF. I would suppose a pretty stone in the G/VS2 range to be a better/quicker seller.

 

[kenny]

Thanks to all of you for talking some sense into me.

Years ago when I was shopping for a fine piano the only word that came into my head was Steinway.
I shopped, researched, learned that better pianos can be had for less.
You pay a big premium for the Steinway name.
Plus you really have to shop around for the occasional good one.
Most people who buy them are not musicians.
They are wealthy people looking for a status symbol to put a vase and picture frames on.
Steinway knows this, and exploits it.

Off topic?
Sure.
But like a piano a diamond is an expensive once in a lifetime purchase where you can overspend if you are not careful.
Ignorance is not bliss, it is rampant.
The sellers know this.
Now throw in the fact that the sellers are accustom to dealing with buyers that are young, proposing, emotional, bumbling 20-somethings operating from the wrong side of their brains, with bulleyes on their wallets and you have the classic recipe for buyer-bewareitis.

Mara, you said:
"Focus on getting a well-cut, unbranded or branded H&A stone, AGS0 with spectacular numbers AND spectacular images (if you are buying online this is all you can use to gauge the stone!) from a vendor that is trusted and you will not go wrong.

I am talking this advice to heart.
No longer am I querying for D, IFs.

Now it is time to learn more.
What is branded or unbranded?
Is a stone with a GIA cert branded?
Or is a stone with a Bluenile laser inscription "branded"?
Or are all stones sold by Bluenile branded??

Next: “Spectacular Numbers”
Please define.
I assume you mean the % and angles of the cut.
I have seen the ranges of GIA and AGL and know what the optimum numbers are, but if a stone is really a good H&A, you don't need to even glance at the numbers. Right?

Next H&A, I think I understand what H&A means.
It is that desirable pattern of 8 symmetrical arrows on top and well-defined 8 symmetrical hearts on the bottom with no dark creasing into the crotch at the top of the hearts and no fuzziness at the V under the heart.

Now, my question relates to how the term H&A is used by vendors to rate and describe their stones.
I believe H&A is not a term that show up on GIA or AGL or other certs.
Is H&A designation on a vendor's website a cut and dry property?
Either the stone is a H&A or it is not?
Or are there degrees of H&A, necessitating close examination of photos by an educated buyer?
Why don't all vendors use a H&A designation for their best-cut diamonds?
Seems like it would make it easier for buyers.
Are the photos of the top and bottom of the stones on Bluenile's GCAL certs useful for judging H&A performance?
Or to judge H&A do the photos have to be taken specifically with a H&A viewer?

Also, I very well may not buy from Bluenile; I'm not trying to plug them.
As I research I'll become more comfortable with other vendors.
I just refer to them here because they are a reputable name which is cheaper than Tiffany.
Trust is a big issue when buying a diamond.
Remember I'm a newbie still in Diamondbuyng101.

 

[valeria101]

As far as I understand H&A started as a branded cut by just one maker and now more took up the name with various degrees of precission attached to it. So... no, there is no Yes/No H&A - there are degrees of perfection involved and you might find lots of posts from sellers that describe and defend the super fine-line technicalities that come with one line of H&A or another.

Why not every store calls their best cut H&A is yet another question... It sounds like "Ideal" got into that position. The H&A standard does give a hard refference to beat and "ideal" does appear on US lab reports (AHS) while H&A does not ( a Japanese lab does grade H&A though - and they might just be the only).

Perhaps all this is just a matter of deciding what exactly matters to you and go for it. Hoping for an absolut standard of quality set by others is a bit tricky. At least to me it is.

"Superidealist" opened several threads about H&A brands including this

 

[perry]

Kenny:

Here is the short and simple advise on your options:

If you want a spetacular looking diamond and don''t want to spend a lot of time learning about what makes them spectacular - and want to deal with people with a stellar reputation - and don''t mind paying the vendors a reasonable markup for their time, effort, and technology to find high quality spectacular diamonds: Go directly to either NiceIce or Good Old Gold. Tell them what you are looking for and you will not be disapointed. Whiteflash''s "A Cut Above" and Superbcert are two other options.

Note that there are aditional quality features that do not come out soley based on Cut that NiceIce and Good Old Gold looks for (check out both of those websites for an amazing education on diamond quality: i.e I like NiceIce''s "dont buy our rejects" page for a great discription of what you might otherwise get).

If you want to purchase a spectacular diamond with a branded name (where some people will ohh and ahh over the quality of your diamond just based on the name) and don''t mind paying the price for these specialty diamonds: Eightstar and Heats on Fire will not disappoint (expect to pay about 50% more than a diamond from NiceIce or Good Old Gold).

If you have the time to learn about diamonds and what makes them spectacular, and the time to look through hundreds of options to find a great diamond, all to find the best price for what you are looking for. Then stick arround for a couple of months on Pricescope and learn.

If you want to be in the middle - then learn a bit and ask for help here on Pricescope.

Personally, I have stuck arround and learned - but I am comfortable paying NiceIce and Good Old Gold their prices if they have what I am looking for.

I would also look at Infinity Diamonds, which I believe are available from Wink''s.

Anyone who I have recommended is also capable of discussing the pro''s and con''s of tension settings - and getting the diamond set properely.

Perry

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Hi Kenny,

It is nice to see that you have given up the idea of specifically needing a D/IF. For sure, like others have commented, cut is far more important than colour and clarity, and unless you are very susceptible to either of the latter C''s, you should definitely prefer Cut over anything else.

Not many people can adjust their first idea as well as you apparently can, and I applaude you for that capacity.

On the other hand, it is a damn shame, because one of these days, the rough that we are cutting will produce a 1 Ct. D-IF, and if it is up to the Pricescope-incrowd, there will be almost no customer for that stone. I wonder how I will feel on that day.

Live long,

 

[valeria101]

Date: 5/1/2005 3:33:13 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

... if it is up to the Pricescope-incrowd, there will be almost no customer for that (1 carat D/IF) stone.

Surely it is not up to the PS crowd

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Touché, Valeria.

It is nice to be joking around every now and then.

Live long,

 

[Lord Summerisle]

To try and answer some of your questions...

an example of a branded H&A is Whiteflash''s A Cut Above range of diamonds, or the EightStar (and i think Infinity do so to!) The Brand garentees that the H&A imagery meets they current standards - these are often very high - giving a signature look unique to each brand.

Unbranded - sold by folks like Good old Gold and Nice Ice - where they go though the stock - and pick the cherry diamonds from a selection they view at the wharehouses - so they can come from any number of cut houses... and arent all the same, but meet the sellers standard for seeing the H&A imagery. this can be more or less stringent than the branded stone.

Other alternative - some like whiteflash have their ''expert selection'' range. which arent sold as H&A - but some of them where cut by the same cut house as the A Cut Aboves - but didnt meet the stringent standards of their imagery - so are sold at a lesser price than the branded diamonds. others available in the ES range will be like those of good old gold - they have picked them from other suppliers for their performance by they picker.

EightStar dont have a ES range as they say they make sure all diamonds are cut to their standards.. and if it aint right they cut it again till it is... hence higher costs, hence the mark up + mark up for the name.


and just as an aside... a diamond can show the H&A imagery without being well cut in it proportions.... while a well cut diamond may not show H&A... but combine the too and some would say you havre the top of the top.. others would disagree.. but thats life. As to why dont all venders use the H&A - well some dont believe in it... thats its a marketing toolor like nice ice - dont believe that any available are cut to their stringent standards... so are H&A like... but are not H&A

Me.. i love my WF ACA - but i also love my WF ES earrings - when i say mine... i mean they look good on my W2B
Can i tell with a view the ACA from the ES stones... no... but then i can only look at the arrows now they are all set... and i think that it would be difficult to see in the hearts image what causes the 2 ES stones to fail the challenge of being ACAs - and as such they represent excellent value for money

 

[elmo65]

Why do you need to buy online only? I have a 2 carat E SI1 Hearts on Fire for around that price that will blind you from across the street... (bought at a local store) Cut is the most important factor, and you can find outstanding stones online and in stores besides Tiffany that will blow you away!! You should know the ideal range for measurements of the type of stone you want.
To me the E color was worth paying for, but clarity that can not be seen is another issue. Good luck!!

 

[fire&ice]

Yes, focusing a a great cut is essential. Though one will pay a premium for a great cut, it is usually less expensive than the other 3 big c''s (carat, color clarity). The LEAST expensive & the MOST important "C" is cleanliness.

Tension sets are cool. I shuddered when you first mentioned them as it takes a special lady to appreciate them as an engagement ring. This is not the case. Going back to cleanliness, make sure the setting is easy to clean & a toothbrush isn''t going to jar the stone.

Regarding the branded super cuts, again - it''s a paper thing. Eyes can not differeniate between good polish and very good polish. Face up, symmetry could possibly discerned between good and excellent. The hearts of the H&A are of little consequence as once set, you can''t view it.

I''m a practical person, I tend to gravitate towards the very good. The difference between a very good make and a fine make can be appreciated, but marginally so. Also, brand mean little to me. So, you have my preference - you need to decide yours.

 

[kenny]

I just got a shock.
I looked up 1 to 1.14 carat VVS1 E and Fs on Bluenile, all Signature Ideal - Their Best Cut.
I found 7, priced from $11,996 to $13,470.
then I plugged all of the numbers into the Holloway calculator on Pricescope.

Ratings varied from 1.2 to 5.5.
Bluenile gave no price consideration whatsoever to this wide variation in optical performance based on cut.
I could see the prices gradually go up with weight, then a bump for the two Es.
In fact one of the Es was the 5.5.

This seems suspicous.

 

[headlight]

Date: 5/1/2005 7:43:53 PM
Author: kenny
I just got a shock.
I looked up 1 to 1.14 carat VVS1 E and Fs on Bluenile, all Signature Ideal - Their Best Cut.
I found 7, priced from $11,996 to $13,470.
then I plugged all of the numbers into the Holloway calculator on Pricescope.

Ratings varied from 1.2 to 5.5.
Bluenile gave no price consideration whatsoever to this wide variation in optical performance based on cut.
I could see the prices gradually go up with weight, then a bump for the two Es.
In fact one of the Es was the 5.5.

This seems suspicous.

5.5 HCA for a Signature Ideal -- talk about suspicious... I''m suspicious about this whole "ideal" thing.

 

[Mara]

kenny...what you say i have noticed as well re: some vendor''s signature or ''ideal'' rated stones...

that''s why i say to look at the numbers and the images and then make your own designations on what you consider ideal. i don''t use other vendor''s designations of cut grading, i know what numbers i want to see and use those.

the HCA helps too.

good luck!

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 5/1/2005 7:43:53 PM
Author: kenny
I just got a shock.
I looked up 1 to 1.14 carat VVS1 E and Fs on Bluenile, all Signature Ideal - Their Best Cut.
I found 7, priced from $11,996 to $13,470.
then I plugged all of the numbers into the Holloway calculator on Pricescope.

Ratings varied from 1.2 to 5.5.
Bluenile gave no price consideration whatsoever to this wide variation in optical performance based on cut.
I could see the prices gradually go up with weight, then a bump for the two Es.
In fact one of the Es was the 5.5.

This seems suspicous.

I wouldn't say suspicious, per se. Supposedly, when AGS comes out with their new system, the disparity won't (at least need to) be so great any more. Although the AGS scorecard, both past & present, uses a categorizing system consistent with the HCA's methodology, HCA is somewhat different (the tutorial reviews this pretty well), is designed to be able to be case specific, rather than the AGS' general case, so as to have an individual diamond's crown & pavilion angles fit within a range, such that whereas a diamond supposedly selected by either Blue Nile, or any vendor, that uses AGS0 as their criteria, may get a poorer performing score than you might expect.

Then again, according to this review, even a current AGS0 shouldn't do worse than a 3.9 on the HCA, so the standards being referenced could be questioned.

As has been reviewed by others here, you may wish to determine your own valuation system for cut, and seek to apply it consistently, being only guided by the vendors' categorization as ideal.

Regarding specific selections...I think Mara has made some good suggestions above, (and which you can see yourself, setting the parameters as you have them, on the search by cut database here), which may fall right at where you are. Though you could save over $600 going down to VS2, VS1 is relatively more conservative in comparison

Best,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

You might like to read the 60 60 page on the tutorial under Knowledge Kenny.

with scant data you get scant info

 

[fire&ice]

The numbers posted could have been in error. Makes sense if they post an incorrect price

, they''d post incorrect numbers by mistake.