Padparadscha - what do you think of this one?

[Rissyl]

Hi All,

I'm new to Pricescope posting after lurking for a long while. Thinking of making the leap to buying online, and I've been thinking of buying this padparadscha (1.5ct heated) and I was wondering if I could get some opinions on it. Would this be a good buy, and what would you pay for it?

PS: Pardon the mosaic-ed hairy fingers cause I don't have a better pic of this gem yet :/

 

[T L]

It looks rather peachy to me, then a true orange pink. Also just because the stone is heated does not mean its not also diffused or subject to other treatment. That has to be ruled out by a reputable Lab .

Some people will complain about the cut I'm sure, but many of these padparadsca sapphires are cut poorly. I would just try to find the best color I could in my price range, for a unheeded, or heated only (no other treatments) stone. Sometimes the cutting is so horrible though on these gems, it's hard to overlook as well.

 

[Rissyl]

It looks rather peachy to me, then a true orange pink. Also just because the stone is heated does not mean its not also diffused or subject to other treatment. That has to be ruled out by a reputable Lab .

Some people will complain about the cut I'm sure, but many of these padparadsca sapphires are cut poorly. I would just try to find the best color I could in my price range, for a unheeded, or heated only (no other treatments) stone. Sometimes the cutting is so horrible though on these gems, it's hard to overlook as well.

Thank you for the advice!
Is the cut for this gem really bad? I thought it seemed like a normal native cut stone :/ is there any possibility of getting such a stone recut?
I'm told that there has been no other treatment for this part from industry accepted heating.

Here's another picture that I've gotten!

View attachment 600572

 

[Rissyl]

Sorry this is the gif that I didn't manage to attach earlier. I had to compress it to upload properly, and it seems like some of the colour has been lost at certain flashes

 

[T L]

The cut isn't really bad for a padparadcha, but it's not good either. It's unlikely you will get a well cut Sri Lankan padparadcha unless it's recut by a well trained lapidary. Sometimes even a good lapidary can only do so much with a badly cut stone.

I suspect this is an Asian stone. The African material tends to be cut better because they allow uncut rough to be exported unlike Asian gems. However, purists only consider Sri Lankan material true padparadcha.

I would insist on a reputable lab report that tests for all treatment, not just heat, before I purchase one of these gems. I would not take the dealer's word for it.

 

[T L]

Sorry this is the gif that I didn't manage to attach earlier. I had to compress it to upload properly, and it seems like some of the colour has been lost at certain flashes

You should never really evaluate a gem against a black background. The background should be a neutral color like white or gray. Black backgrounds tend to make pastel gems look brighter than they are.

Despite the black background which tends to make these gems more attractive, it still looks really peachy to me.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

If I remember correctly it was padparadscha that was heated with beryllium to get pink-orange colors, so if you buy a heated stone, you must make sure it is only heated and nothing else.

 

[Rissyl]

Thanks! The seller will be showing me more videos in the sunlight and a certificate from the National Gem and Jewelry Authority of Sri Lanka soon, and he assures me it is not beryllium treated would 800usd be a good price to pay for this?

Alternatively, would anyone be able to recommend a nice oval padparascha of at least 1.5ct, or facing up at least 7mm?

 

[T L]

Thanks! The seller will be showing me more videos in the sunlight and a certificate from the National Gem and Jewelry Authority of Sri Lanka soon, and he assures me it is not beryllium treated would 800usd be a good price to pay for this?

Alternatively, would anyone be able to recommend a nice oval padparascha of at least 1.5ct, or facing up at least 7mm?

$800 is a fair price for a peachy sapphitre that size if its heated only. I never heard of the National Gem and Jewelery Authority of Sri Lanka, so I don't know how reputable they are or if they have the equipment to properly test for diffusion.

 

[T L]

If the photo and video are accurate, I like this stone, but it's very expensive.

https://gemfix.com/gems/sapphire-pink-13-526

Not knowing what your budget is, you may want to stick with the more peachy looking padparadchas on the same site. The nice thing is that this stone, as well as his others, come with all the appropriate lab paperwork, and you can see a video of it on a neutral background, He also recuts the material very nicely.

For me, and everyone is different, I would not buy a padparadcha of subpar color. There is such a fine line between that delicate orange pink perfection and less desirable peachy/brownish hues.

If you like peachy stones, then there are peachy spinels and garnets, pretty much untreated, that are a more affordable option, and do not require expensive lab testing. If you love this stone however, $800 isn't a bad price, but you may have to pay a lot more for proper testing, as diffused peachy sapphires are not worth much.

 

[Rissyl]

@TL that stone is pretty!! Unfortunately it's way out of my budget. I'm looking at a max of $4k

I've gotten a new video from the vendor! I think this most accurately shows the colour and cut of the stone. What do you think? They mentioned they will send it in for polishing before getting it verified.

https://streamable.com/s/kakxw/gtghzc

He also another pad that is unheated, 1.3ct, which do you think is better? This is much more expensive though.

https://streamable.com/s/dtzgd/utvxzf

 

[T L]

Well I like the second stone much better of course, but I don't know your vendor, and buying padparadchas without a highly reputable lab report could be a huge risk. The second stone could be diffused as well.

There are other padaoaradchas on the gemfix website in your pricerangr. Did you see them? They're under the pink sapphire page, but labeled as padparadcha. I trust gemfix.

I'm sorry, but padparadchas are stones I would be extremely careful in purchasing.frim a vendor I didn't know, especially without a detailed lab report that conclusively tests for ALL possible treatment. The lab should also be very well known like one of the European labs, or AGL or GIA.

 

[normanintheskywithsapphires]

Yes, verbal assurance of a 'not-treatment' is like a car-seller saying 'this will drive another 50000 without problem' - it doesn't mean anything in terms of guarantee.

 

[Frost]

Hello everyone.

As a long time lurker and a very well trained and certified gemmologist, I just felt the need to correct what I felt were a few misguided statements above.

Firstly, I think both of OPs stones very much qualify as padparadschas. I know it's an arbitrary term, but traditionally speaking, pads are basically bicolour sapphires with orange and pink and occasionally a bit of yellow thrown in the mix. For anyone in doubt, refer to any good gem/jewellery website (auction houses etc.) or high end connoisseur books a la those of Yavorskyy or R. Hughes.

Secondly - checking for diffusion in heat treated padparadscha is an extremely simple, straightforward process that anyone with basic gem tools (immersion microscope, di-iodomethane) and a working knowledge of gemmology could accomplish. It takes no time at all.

It's clear as day when something has been diffused on a simple immersion test. So no, a full report from Gubelin, GIA or AGL is not the end-all on this and a relatively unknown lab with some basic instruments can in fact determine it very easily. As a matter of fact, GIA tends to apply the "padparadscha" term very loosely and if anything, I'd never go by their word for it because I've seen hundreds of stones down the years where on their certs they've allowed obviously brown and yellow hues to be glorified as pads. Selling those as pads even if they do have a cert as such is a big no-go for any honest dealer and should be a no go for a lab too.

Another thing is that in 99% of the cases, diffusion treated pads look VERY different to natural ones. Natural pads do not in practice exhibit perfectly uniform colours with no zoning - they look and feel like natural sapphires and I'd be willing to bet much more than what everything mentioned in this thread costs that none of the stones linked ever saw beryllium diffusion. Diffusion treated ones look suspiciously uniform and almost never actually have the proper padparadscha colors in trade ideal saturations and tones. They're mostly darker than the naturals and more orange/yellow/red than a good mix. And on top of that they're suspiciously well cut.

Lastly, neither AGL nor GIA certs cost that much.

P.S. The reason everything you get out of Sri Lanka is so badly cut is because the market functions by weight from the mines onwards. It's very much possible to get top of the line cuts, it's just that you'll be paying for 4 carats of top quality rough and getting a 1 carat stone out of it. Very few people will pay that much for such a low yield in top quality. I don't know if you people have noticed, but not even most highest end (and overpriced) websites have top quality sapphires in top quality cuts. The reason is the rough cost.

 

[T L]

Hello everyone.



Secondly - checking for diffusion in heat treated padparadscha is an extremely simple, straightforward process that anyone with basic gem tools (immersion microscope, di-iodomethane) and a working knowledge of gemmology could accomplish. It takes no time at all.

So in some cases, you don't need a mass spectrometer or an LIBS? I know that one time AGL tried to test a sapphire for me for diffusion and could not use standard equipment. They required in LA -ICP-MS. Some of these advanced diffusion treatments are not detectable with standard equipment.

 

[Nosean]

Frost - Thank you!!!

 

[Rissyl]

Thank you everyone!
@Frost thank you for the detailed information, your words really put me at ease on this do you think the 1.56 heated pad is a decent buy at the price I'm offered?

https://www.gemsociety.org/article/testing-for-surface-treated-gems/
I also saw this article on how to do the simple test, but I'm not a member, is this the test that you are referring to?

The vendor just got the cert from the Sri Lankan gem authority and they've certified it as a Padparascha, light pinkish orange sapphire with mineral and needle like inclusions. He mentioned that if it were diffusion treated the authorities would highlight it in the cert, but I wasn't too sure if they even tested for it.

The reason why I haven't asked for a cert from AGL is because it would cost at least a quarter of what the stone costs, and I'm still unsure about paying such a large expense for something I haven't seen. But this really allays some of my fears, thank you!

The seller will be showing me more padparaschas of better grade if he gets them, but otherwise I may just get the 1.56 heated one. I'll update with pictures if I do!

 

[Frost]

So in some cases, you don't need a mass spectrometer or an LIBS? I know that one time AGL tried to test a sapphire for me for diffusion and could not use standard equipment. They required in LA -ICP-MS. Some of these advanced diffusion treatments are not detectable with standard equipment.

Well - I can imagine that it's possible that they came across a stone that didn't show a clear enough rim in its exterior or didn't show any dye/color seeping into feathers/fractures and in that case, spectrometers or elemental analysis would give pretty clear answers, yes. If you have beryllium where it doesn't belong (in any corundum ever) and it doesn't show up on any kind of visual inspection (microscopes and immersion), then those instruments would find it as a trace element.
But in my experience, for one thing it's very rare and for another, I've yet to see a Be treated pad that looks convincingly natural (light to medium gentle pastel-ish mix of orange and pink without any funny red or orangish red flashes? Somebody enlighten me).
And these tests certainly aren't necessary to tell most diffused corundum apart, but they are routine for many labs around the world anyway so anything you submit to them will get tested with advanced instruments whether they are actually necessary or not. Which is good.

I don't use AGL since I'm not in the States, but I like their ethics for another reason - they're one of the few labs I can think of that doesn't compromise on color descriptions. They won't write "pad", "royal blue", "cornflower" etc. if it isn't or if it's borderline. So if I had a really, really rare color to test in a large size, I'd consider their cert one of the best for that.

Also - some labs in Sri Lanka (and Bangkok, and HKG, etc.) do have spectrometers and other advanced analytical instruments. As treatments advance, it's more and more standard part and parcel of gemmology and more and more labs buy them. It's necessary even for basic things like definite answers on heat/no heat and such.

@Rissyl
"do you think the 1.56 heated pad is a decent buy at the price I'm offered?"
I think $800 is fair if it's a nice eye clean stone. But I do mean really eye clean with nothing popping up when examined in normal daylight/gem lamp viewing conditions.

The immersion test you mentioned would give you a definite answer in most cases, but you'd need high magnification to be able to tell.

The Gem Authority is a government organization/oversight body for the gem trade. Any gems exported from Sri Lanka have to go through there to legally leave the country, and they charge fees for export/shipping.
But their lab is not really the best staffed/equipped last I checked and if you really wanted to be clear on it you could ask the seller for GIC which similar to AGL won't hand a padparadscha distinction over if the stone doesn't deserve it (and is therefore a really good idea if buying pads from Sri Lanka). If the seller gets sketchy about it, it's probably because they have doubts about the color.

Overall, well... Grass is green and pads are really difficult to buy sight unseen. Nothing new under the sun, haha.

 

[chrono]

The rim / water immersion test is for the old style diffusion, which only applies to surface diffusion. It has gotten incredibly good that highly specialized equipment is the only way to be sure.

Quote: But in other cases, the color may penetrate entirely through the gem. Gemologists around the world are currently working to develop detection methods for all stones treated by this process.

No memo from a reputable lab = no transaction.
http://www.palagems.com/bulk-diffusion-sapphire/

 

[Rissyl]

@chrono thank for sharing!

So would anyone be able to clarify if in today's context and advanced diffusion methods,
1) Be treated pads still look unnatural, as @Frost mentioned, or its virtually impossible to differentiate by eye anymore?
2) Does Be treatment only occur in heated stones, or can unheated stones also be treated with Be even though basic thermal testing indicates no evidence of heating? I.e. if I buy unheated stones I'm definitely safe?
3) I saw in the article they mentioned Be treating helps lighten the blue colour in sapphires as well. Should we start to be wary of Be treated blue sapphires too?

@Frost so far the seller has assured it's eye clean and the video looks to me that way as well unfortunately, he offered me to have the stone tested at any Sri Lankan lab of my choice, otherwise at the ngja of sl if I had no preference. Unfortunately I didn't know better to have a preference (Google doesn't have much info in Sri Lankan gem labs somehow) so he went ahead with the ngja :/ but I guess this also means he doesn't really have anything to hide? He mentioned that ngja is pretty strict with their terming of padparaschas as well.

 

[chrono]

1. BE sapphires now can look very natural (not intense in colouration).
2. BE requires high heat, so if it isn't heated, then there is no concern about diffusion
3. Other colour sapphires have been diffused for a while now.

https://www.gia.edu/locations

 

[Frost]

@chrono: The incredibly good isn't really incredibly good; it's merely lattice diffusion which reaches into the core of the stone and has been around for a very long time now.

The info that 'labs around the world are developing methods to detect it' is way outdated; any lab with halfway decent basic advanced instruments should be able to detect it today or not call itself a lab. The entire article is written (however informatively and usefully) from the point of view of a very surprised and shocked gem trade fifteen years ago.

Another thing here; I think many people perhaps buy into the marketing of their local labs a bit too much. Advanced instruments - with perhaps the exception of LA-ICP-MS because of its cost - are a common feature of any decent lab around the globe nowadays. And detecting these treatments is really not rocket science, promise.

As someone who both has a university level knowledge of gemmology (although I'm not a practicing gemmologist i.e. it's not and never will be a business to me) and someone who sees thousands of stones every month in my line of work, I can tell you that these stones are very few and far between on the actual source markets - I don't remember the last time I've come across a beryllium diffused pad, and certainly never once came across a truly natural looking one. The Thais are true masters of treatment, but I don't think masters enough to fool someone who knows the natural product well enough.

 

[Frost]

So would anyone be able to clarify if in today's context and advanced diffusion methods,
1) Be treated pads still look unnatural, as Frost mentioned, or its virtually impossible to differentiate by eye anymore?

What I meant by unnatural is primarily the lighter, gentler pink and orange mixes - I still haven't come across a single one that had Be done on it and I see hundreds a year.
If you were to buy a strongly saturated, ultra-rare (they really are ultra-rare) padparadscha with a lot of orange and just enough pink, a diffusion check definitely wouldn't be out of place.

2) Does Be treatment only occur in heated stones, or can unheated stones also be treated with Be even though basic thermal testing indicates no evidence of heating? I.e. if I buy unheated stones I'm definitely safe?

Be is only for heated stones, yes. But there's another method in use for unheated yellows - which will most likely not apply if you buy from any halfway reputable dealers, but will apply if you ever make a trip to the source markets: x-ray. Yellow sapphires can be x-rayed to give them a temporary color boost which will go away if you keep the stone in sunlight for a day or two, or a few weeks even if you don't.
It's too funny; disreputable dealers take a whole bag of yellow sapphires to a hospital where they pay a corrupt technician and have it x-rayed to cooking over there. Voila, instant vivid yellows!

A story without a happy ending: I bought an 11 carat ultra-nice yellow sapphire a few years ago. Loupe clean, no heat, well cut. Strong saturation - any lab would have called it vivid yellow.
Two months later, the stone went from vivid yellow to what I'd call barely medium to medium light when it was repeatedly exposed to strong fluorescent lights.
The treatment was and still to my knowledge is undetectable by labs; it's only after a while that you realize that you've basically poured tens of thousands down the drain. Caveat emptor. I've never heard of anyone ever ordering one and finding that out, but I have seen cases on the source markets.
It doesn't apply to heated yellows though, so those are safe.

3) I saw in the article they mentioned Be treating helps lighten the blue colour in sapphires as well. Should we start to be wary of Be treated blue sapphires too?

Those look incredibly uniform, almost like a synthetic. I've never bought one even simply for collection/to check, but I have seen some and they are a bit weird. In any event, a good lab will do a Be check as a part of their routine on any heated sapphire, so you should be safe.

As for labs: the NGJA is strict with padparadscha references (and all others for that matter), but just for general gemmological know-how and available instruments, certain other labs are better.

Now that I think of it; GRS and Lotus also have branches in Sri Lanka. If you ever buy something larger and are really concerned about it, you could have it sent to either of those two for a 100% safe, 100% sure answer on anything and everything regarding a stone (GRS has a full suite of practically everything in use in modern gemmology on-site, and Lotus sends their stones to BKK for Dick Hughes to check - which is about as safe as you're ever going to get on a sapphire).

 

[chrono]

Yes, I am aware the information is outdated, hence your water immersion testing method is also outdated. That is the point I tried to make. This is why I only trust labs that have LA -ICP-MS for proper testing.

When spending thousands of dollars, I'd prefer that peace of mind. Others are free to have their own standards of selection and mind cleanliness. This is also the primary reason I no longer purchase corundum as it is one of the most often treated gem type out there.

 

[T L]

I want to thank everyone for their extensive replies. This is a very informative thread. I just want to say that I do think that many beryllium padparadchas look very convincing like the lighter pinks and gentler oranges, especially to the layperson, like the consumer who started this thread. I know people that have gotten fooled. I've seen stones that look like that gemfix one I posted, that were proven to be be-treated.

 

[Frost]

Yes, I am aware the information is outdated, hence your water immersion testing method is also outdated. That is the point I tried to make. This is why I only trust labs that have LA -ICP-MS for proper testing.

When spending thousands of dollars, I'd prefer that peace of mind. Others are free to have their own standards of selection and mind cleanliness. This is also the primary reason I no longer purchase corundum as it is one of the most often treated gem type out there.

Two things I'd like to point out:

1) The method I mentioned in my first post was di-iodomethane immersion. It is the very same method which the Pala Gems article which you just linked above mentions and even provides a photo of a lattice diffused sapphire immersed in the the same liquid, under a microscope. Halfway down the page, on the right.

2) LA-ICP-MS is not used for diffusion checks and is therefore an entirely moot point. It's used to analyse mineral samples and for very difficult stones (things which are borderline, or outside their normal categories; spinels with weird RIs, unknown mineral varieties, etc.).
The usual diffusion checkers are LIBS and di-iodomethane + immersion microscope (all of which are available to practically any lab).

Just to clarify something: I'm not, under any circumstances, suggesting a cert from somewhere in the jungle written on tree bark should be taken for its word. Ever.
What I'm advocating is just simple truth - and that's the fact that gemmology is global and while reputable labs (two of which I mentioned as options to the OP in my last post) are generally reputable for a reason, there are things which are more marketing than truth. Such as how difficult it really is to detect and see certain things.

I've found that the North American market mainly prefers and trusts AGL and GIA - their own labs. The European one prefers Gubelin, SSEF and GRS - again, their own labs; and the Asian one is between GRS (which is very well marketed in Asia), Lotus and AIGS. I guess it's just normal; people buy into the marketing of their own version of 'the best'.

All of the ones mentioned, in practice, are no 'better' or 'worse' than each other. They're all well equipped; and a few of them (SSEF, GIA and GRS) also function as general gemmological/mineralogical research centres.

 

[T L]

Yes, I am aware the information is outdated, hence your water immersion testing method is also outdated. That is the point I tried to make. This is why I only trust labs that have LA -ICP-MS for proper testing.

When spending thousands of dollars, I'd prefer that peace of mind. Others are free to have their own standards of selection and mind cleanliness. This is also the primary reason I no longer purchase corundum as it is one of the most often treated gem type out there.

Not just often treated, but the treatments are so invasive and difficult to detect at times, it's scary. Add to that the myriad of synthetics out there, I still think that people should buy sapphires, but that's why I always recommend a reputable lab with access to high-tech equipment.

I also have personally have stopped buying corundum, because I'm sick of paying the lab report fees. However, if you're spending thousands on a stone, the fee is definitely worth the peace of mind. A beautiful untreated or minimally treated sapphire or ruby of magnificent color is really a sight to behold.

 

[chrono]

All the labs you listed are reputable. I do not have issues with them. NGJA isn't in the same tier as those you listed.

 

[T L]

2) LA-ICP-MS is not used for diffusion checks and is therefore an entirely moot point. It's used to analyse mineral samples and for very difficult stones (things which are borderline, or outside their normal categories; spinels with weird RIs, unknown mineral varieties, etc.).
The usual diffusion checkers are LIBS and di-iodomethane + immersion microscope (all of which are available to practically any lab).

Not in my case, AGL used an LA-ICP-MS to test for diffusion on my blue sapphire that I sent them. I confirmed the specific use of this machine with Christopher Smith.

I opened a thread about this some time ago.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...-about-testing-for-diffused-sapphires.159575/

Fortunately, for this sapphire, they were able to use standard equipment to test for diffusion, but then I sent them another sapphire later on where they had to send it out to the mass spectrometer for testing .

 

[Frost]

All the labs you listed are reputable. I do not have issues with them. NGJA isn't in the same tier as those you listed.

Oh but absolutely - and I never once claimed otherwise (EDIT: In fact, I advised against taking their word).

What I'm trying to say is that "AGL + GIA" = Holy Grail is not really true or factual, and that most reputable labs around the planet do have access to more than enough technology to conclusively tell you what treatments something has had.