Pink Sapphire Recut

[maxspinel]

I got a pink sapphire (oval cut, 4.27 ct, 10x8 mm) from thaigem.com years ago. It has a medium dark tone with a fairly decent primary color when viewed at lamplight. During the day or at fluroscent lighting, it can be dark but sometimes quite ok. I am always puzzled by it. However, the main problem of the stone is dead and lifeless and I noticed that the cutlet is off centered and bottom heavy.

I loved pink sapphires but it seems the price has skyrocketed in the past couple of years. First, stones with nice color (I like hot pink), descent clarity and over 4 carats are hard to come by. The longer that I waited, the higher is the price and I am pretty frustrated in finding the right stone. Lately, a dealer showed me a stone (elongated cushionl cut, 3.7 ct, 11x7 mm, good clarity), claiming it is the best money can buy and he wants $8000. First the stone''s cut is very elongated, it has a huge window in the center and it shows pink only at the end while the center/sides seems washed out. The guy states the color is hot pink but I think it is too light and hot pink should be a little darker and more intense.

I then thought of recutting the old sapphire. I sent it to a cutter in town and he closed the windown and centered the cutlet. He worked only on the pavilion without touching the crown so the stone came back as 3.67 ct with the same face dimension. It is an intersting transformation; the ugly duckling is still no swan but the stone now exhibits some fire and brilliance on 50% of the surface. It has lightened up quite a bit and there is gorgeous pink breaking through when before total darkness. My family/ friends could not even recognize that it is the same stone.

I noticed that the cutlet is better but still a little off-centered and the pavilion and the crown do not line up. There are sparkles to the stone but depending on the lighting and the angle, sometimes 30%-50%, sometimes more. The stone displaced a nice color where light is returned. Also, the stone often looks bright at the top half, and dark at the bottom half. I rotated the stone and still the top is bright and the bottom is dark.

I talked to the cutter again and he said to improve it further, he can cut more on the pavilion but no guarantee whatsoever. I am skeptical to send the stone to him again since I don''t want to lose any more weight on the stone if he does not know the end results.

I am hoping that you can give me some advice:
1) Why is the stone reflects light on only half of the surface and can it be further improved?
2) Is there a good cutter that I can send the stone to and they can be a little bit sure of the end results?
3) What is the going price for 4 ct, good color/clarity, heat treated hot pink sapphire?

 

[strmrdr]

Richard M or Micheal E both of whom post here and if you look around you will find some posts by them and contact info would be my pick for advice on another recut.

Richard Homer would be another option but it sounds like your stone might not be a good canidate for concave cutting with the dark tone.

 

[strmrdr]

Richard M
https://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/profile/myprofile.asp?userID=6578


Michael_E

https://www.pricescope.com/idealbb/profile/myprofile.asp?userID=5560

 

[BrightSpot]

Michael E recut a yellow sapphire for me & it''s gorgeous! I highly recommend him & he''s great to work with! Let us know what you decide.

 

[strmrdr]

Just found out that Richard M isnt offering recut services.

Michael E as far as know still is.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 7/10/2005 2:44:29 PM
Author:maxspinel

1) Why is the stone reflects light on only half of the surface and can it be further improved?

I am not sure what this means, but it could be a certain property called ''tilt brilliance'' (lack of).
If that is it, then it can only be improved that much... any faceted stone starts look see-through from an angle - at best they are bright all over when seen straight from above. There is a certain amount of technical detail about tilt brilliance on faceters.com. This subject is not much debated about diamonds: for once, these stones do not suffer from lack of tilt brilliance all that much because of high RI and most are smal by gem standards (1 carat means allot more for diamonds than sapphires, say). Of course,some diamond cuts could have better ''tilt brilliance'' (some radiants and princess cuts with large facets on the pavilion sidea and flat crown... some step cuts, and old cuts are better at it than moderns showing some room for improving the latter) but this is not talked about much. Since colored stones have lower RI and stronger color, windown show more and lack of tilt brilliance becomes more readily a falt of one cut model or another. The vast variety of colored gem cut models gives more room for discussion as well.

Hopefully, one of the cuters on the forum will care to pick up the very technical topic ...

2) Is there a good cutter that I can send the stone to and they can be a little bit sure of the end results?

That, I do not know. Even if I saw the stone I am no cutter and you would need a cutter''s opinion for this, IMO. On this forum, you might want to try Richard Homer (at concevegems.com, but he has won awards both for classic and concave faceting, sure that

) and Michael E. There must be others as well. The rules of pricescope prevent sellers from advertising their services directly, so you might want to comtact them via Private Messages (PM).

3) What is the going price for 4 ct, good color/clarity, heat treated hot pink sapphire?

Since there is no standard definition of ''hot pink'' I can''t quite give an answer. And even if it were... one woul need to shop around a bit to give a proper answer. Since price bargaining is common, your question i hard! A pink sapphire of exceptional color would be priced at the top of sapphire prices, as far as I know. You might want to checkWalter Arnstein (thenaturalsapphirecompany.com) for an upper range quote on comparable goods. And take a look at AJSgems for a particular sapphire (listed here) they price between sapphire and ruby prices, for all the good reasons. It makes good refference for pricing at the ruby/sapphire borderline, IMO, although it is not directly comparable with your stone due to weight. That is larger, but there are some closer for refference.

I am not an expert. Hope some of the hints help.

 

[velouriaL]

To answer your questions, as best I can,
1. I have no idea... I would think Michael E or Valeria101 migth have an answer. I hope that Michael E. can post on this without seeming like it''s self-promotion. This is indeed one of those fine-line-tricky situations. Maybe you can PM him with your question and then share with the rest of us what he us to say for our own education.
2. I second Michael E. He did the setting for my e-ring and has been a joy to work with.
3. You know, I looked around, and it seems like stones of that calibre are preeeety pricey. Even AJSgems.com, which is usually mid-range as far as prices go, shows them pretty high.

4.18cts. @ 8.7x10.1x5.3mm
Very Slightly Included Madagascar Lot# SPK-00169-Total $5,200.

4.11cts. @ 7.0x9.2x6.1mm
Almost Loupe Clean Madagascar Lot# SPK-00171-Total $4,600.

5.06cts. @ 8.5x11.1x6.0mm
Very Slightly Included Burma Lot# SPK-00167-Total $22,000.

I''m impressed that AJS didn''t try to pass that last one off as ruby, with it''s looks and its pedigree. It''s price is still WAY up there, though!

More pink sapphires 3+ carats.

 

[velouriaL]

I guess Ana and I were posted at the same time!

 

[Michael_E]

maxspinel,
I''ll try to answer some of your questions as follows:

1. The reason for the half dark - half light look to some stones is due to either the light that they are in or to the cut of the pavilion. Many sapphires are cut to be as large as possible in terms of carat weight and therefore are cut to an oval shape and have a "keel" pavilion where the culet of the stone is a line like the bottom of a canoe and not a single sharp point. This "keel" pavilion has the optical effect of separating the reflective areas on the sides of the pavilion and makes the stone show bright reflections on one half of the stone and dark areas on the other half where the reflected light is being shot off in a different direction. To make the stone as bright as possible it either needs to be recut on a particular way so that the pavilion facets come together at a point OR it needs to be cut with concave facets in order to distribute the light more evenly throughout the stone. The problem with either of these techniques is that you will lose more material and perhaps size from your stone.

2. There are a lot of good cutters and the one who has already cut your stone may be one of them. He has looked at and cut your stone. He knows how deep it is, what can be done to improve it and his views may be quite correct. If you like the concave cut look, then I would definitely ask Mr. Homer to take a look at your stone, since he does fine work and can tell you if your stone will benefit from his cutting technique.

3. BIG BUCKS ! I think that velourial''s attached images prety much sum up the costs of these things and AJS Gems is not the highest cost vendor, by any means.

I wold be careful about cutting too much more on your stone. If it looks good and you can only gain another 10% in brightness, but have to sacrifice 20% of it''s weight, I''m not so sure that it would be worth it. Remember that these things don''t need to be "perfect" to be very fine and your attitude to your stones little "personality traits" is more important that it''s actual cut quality. Enjoy it''s beauty !

 

[maxspinel]

Thanks for the input. I am still very curious about the top bright and bottom dark characteristic of my recut sapphire. Since I have other oval cut stones, I started inspecting each one more closely and I noticed all of them seem to have the same light effect. It is more apparent in the pink sapphire since the basic tone is darker and the reflected color is very bright so it sets off a very big contrast. I also noticed that some are cut with the cutlet as a point and others with the cutlet as a small line. It seems that those cut with cutlet as a small line have less of the half bright/dark problem. I tried to search for prior post and it seems this question was not answered. I really like to know if this is typical of traditional oval cut and can the effect be minimized by redesigning the cut of the stone and should the cutlet be a point or a small line. I never imagine that recutting the old pink sapphire would yield a gem of the first water but it is a very interesting experiment. I would post the before and after pictures once I figure out how to take attach pictures. Need help on that area.


On the going price of 3-4 ct unheated pink sapphire, it seems to vary quite a bit, between $800 to $3000 per carat depending on the color/clarity/cut and vendors. I''ve been to local jewelers/wholesalers and a lot of gem shows but still have not found one that totally take my breath away. The only one that is an absolute magnicent beauty was from Tiffany: a round brilliant cut unheated 10 ct hot pink sapphire for $60,000. It was so gorgeous that I dare say it is the most beautiful gem that I have ever seen; it glitters, radiates and sparkes like a diamond and its beauty actually surpassed the $250,000 five ct Burmese ruby that was sitting next to it. I actually thought and still do that $60,000 was a bargin for the gem even though the kind of money is of course out of my budget. I''ve been looking ever sinice and for 4 years, I can''t find anything that is remotely comparable to it. I would not buy colored gemstone off the internet or e-bay since the monitor is not a true medium for color display and you''ve got to inspect it in person.

 

[BWise]

I found quite the opposite - oval stones with a point culet display more even color and appear brighter than those with keel like culets. I have this blue sapphie beautiful in all aspects but the keel culet caused half bright half grey effect that I am dying to fix!

PM Michael E on the fix - I know he recut a yellow sapphre recently with dramatic improvements on the center brilliance. There is a different faceting technique called ''barion'' involved. I guess he did not mention his options due the posting rules. Here is the link of that yellow baby. Link

 

[maxspinel]

Michael E,
Thanks for answering the top bright/bottom dark phenomenom of the oval stones. So it is better to have a single point than a keel like cutlet. The cutter that I went was perhaps an experienced one but he did not answer my questions logically. He claimed that the half bright/dark effects was caused by the inclusions/clouds in the stone, blocking the light travel from one side to the other even though there does not seem to be any inclusions in that direction. With regard to the single point/keel like cutlet, he said whatever I like, he can do it. But this is not the point since single vs keel is not a matter of taste, it is whatever it takes to bright out the best color/quality of the stone.

I understand that nothing is perfect but since the stone is already half way there, we are thinking may be we can do even better. I guess man (or woman) is never satisfied with what we have; therefore we are always seeking something bigger, better and more beautiful.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 7/11/2005 3:18:00 PM
Author: maxspinel

The only one that is an absolute magnicent beauty was from Tiffany ... I''ve been looking ever sinice and for 4 years, I can''t find anything that is remotely comparable to it.

How about this thing:

Given wher it comes from, I would say there are more reasons than the fascinating picture to commend this one.
To find the original listing, try this link (or look for item #398 at Walter Arnstein - thenaturalsapphirecompany.com). Their #P2 matches your fin at Tifany''s aparently for all but shape (top color, weight and price).

And there is allot more where these come from including a few rounds and allot more is not online. Just in case you might feel that your search for the perfect pink sapphire is not over yet

Anyway, it surely is a pleasure to inspect such things, online or off... as far as I can tell.

 

[maxspinel]

Thanks Ana,

I browsed the link and it seems the one that you posted has the best value/color. The color, at least on the display, is very vivid and delicious like a candy. Under magnification, there are some flaws on the surface of the outer crown which might be noticeable without the loupe (of course, I am not sure without actually seeing the stone). The depth of the stone is 47%, which is considered not very deep and I don''t know how it would affect the brilliance, but the stone does look big for its carat size. I have a 8 ct blue sapphire which is a only a little bigger but the sapphire is cut very deep though.

Sorry for my analytical nature. Since I don''t have the stone in front of me, I tend to analyze it on the screen using the data that I have at hand. I don''t have any experience dealing with Naturalsapphires and I am very uncomfortalbe buying a stone especially an expensive one via the internet. From the experience that I had, they seldom live up to the expectation. Partially due to the incorrect depictation of color on the monitor, and partly might due to the fact color is so subjective; without seeing and trying it on in person, it might not fit you. Just like clothing, I never buy anything that looks good on a model since often times, they look horrible on me. I went shopping once in a supposedly high fashion designer wholesale center in Asia. They were all samples/designer pieces at an outstanding price but the catch is, you can''t try it and no returns. Being caught up in a buying frenzy with my friends, I bought 15 of them and sadly, only one (1) I really like and actually fits. I have been kicking myself as there are better bargains and nicer fashion in the States and you can try and better yet, return them.

I am often wrong even buying/inspecting thing in person and I am not sure how can I rely on something I can''t touch, see or feel, but only through cyber imagination via the internet screen. I can understand e-ordering round brilliant diamonds since the specifications are better defined. But for color and fancy cut gemstones which are affected by many many factors, how can I trust the net? Apparently, many people have a lot of successful stories so it is probably just me since I am very very picky.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 7/12/2005 2:10:36 PM
Author: maxspinel

I am often wrong even buying/inspecting thing in person and I am not sure how can I rely on something I can''t touch, see or feel...

Of course I can''t see more than you can on the screen...

For once, there might be some confusion about the stats. They read:

Item ID : P398
Weight : 4.37 Ct.
Dimension (mm) : 9.61 X 8.37 X 5.66

Wich gives depth =67% (5.66 / 8.37) which is a safer bet.

Agreed that pictures do not tell much about colored gems, but they do show cut details and windows better than casual close inspection, and this one looks smashing - that''s why I''ve mentioned the poster kid anyway. I have no reason to ''service'' this shop or another. That stone just keeps calling... Eh, well...

Honestly, I could not imagine anyone buying such a piece sight unseen, without reassuring refferences about the seller''s reputation and recourse (=return policy). At best, these pictures and websites make an informal meeting place- as far as I can understand. And a good way to consider any item properly since there is no practical limit for that as opposed to the limited time and refference sources available in a store. Walter Arnstein has quite a reputation - hence the exceptional pieces and prices.

Anyway, it is a bit ingrained in the habits of this forum (on which I surely spend waaay tooo much time) to post pictures from here and there and chatter. So the mention of that sapphire and it''s peers was really casual. If anyone gets something like that (or even round brilliant diamonds - as standardized as those can be) via a faceless shopping cart with no personal contact whatsoever, than, well... I can''t quite imagine that level of confidence either. It works for buying books on Amazon.com and subscribing to magazines and the ocasional piece of disposable stuff - but this ? 30k is way beyond ''dispozable'' for me

 

[maxspinel]

Ana,
Now I realized that I actually looked at the WRONG stone

. I looked at item P357 insted of P398. See, I can''t even browse the right item, not to mention buying the right stone off the net.

No wonder that I thought the price was reasonable, $2850/ct (a total of ~!15k for item P357) instead of $7000/ct (a total of ~30k for item P39. Comparing the stats, there are a whole lot of differences, P357 is cut too shallow. I guess you get what you paid for.