Please: I need some perspective.

[Olive Oil]

Hi all,

First, I apologize for the long post.

I have only posted a few times on this board, but I am in a situation where I am desperately in need of some perspective. I don''t feel comfortable talking to any one I know about it. I have been in a relationship nearly 4 years, and for 3 and 1/2 of that we have lived together. About a year ago, he found out that he would be moving to Europe for work (he will be leaving in about a month from now). He has always said he wants me to come with him, but this won''t be possible until at least a year after he leaves, because I am in a PhD program that I must finish. About this same time, I started thinking that I would like to get married. I have tried to talk to him about it several times, but he was not receptive, so I would drop the conversation. I was not as upfront as I could have been, usually asking something like "where do you see us in the future?" Or sometimes I would say that I did not want to move with him unless I knew he was thinking long term -- I would be sacrificing my career options I moved with him, and I wanted to know it was worth it. I also have told him that I want to have kids someday, and since I am nearing 30, I need to know that we are on the same wavelength with that. Usually his response was something like "If I didn''t see a future for us, I wouldn''t ask you to move with me." If I pressed him further, he would get irritable, and say that he was tired, or stressed, or something similar, and end the conversation.

I was very hurt that he would not talk to me openly about these things (and I know he is not secretly planning anything). Although, really, he is not open about his emotions about anything, so I am not sure why I was surprised. Our entire relationship, if I have become to emotional, he has completely shut down, and would not talk. After a while, I started to feel indifferent about our relationship. I ended up going away for a couple of months for work, and I hoped during this time I would gain some perspective and start to feel something for him again. Instead, I found that I did not miss him. I mostly did not think about him at all. I met a man there, and we ended up becoming close friends. We spent a lot of time talking about things we wanted out of life, things that have happened to us, things that have hurt us, etc. It was all of the kinds of things that I wish I could talk to my boyfriend about, but he is not open to discussing. In retrospect, this friendship was really an emotional affair, and there was definitely a strong attraction between the two of us. After the two months, I returned home, more confused than ever.

As soon as I got home, I decided that I needed to tell my boyfriend how hurt I was because he was not open to discussing our future. I had not talked to him much while I was gone, and he was upset by that. I explained to him how hurt I was, and I told him how numb I felt -- when I thought of our relationship, I felt nothing bad, but also nothing good. Really I just felt nothing. I told him that I needed to be able to talk about these things, and because of how I was feeling, I wasn''t sure I wanted to get married anymore. He looked very sad, but his only response was "I don''t know what to do to fix it. I am really tired and I need to go to bed." And then he went to bed. That was two weeks ago, and he has not brought it up since. There have been nights when I have been sitting on the couch, and the thought of what has happened to us brings me to tears. But he still won''t talk -- he just tells me not to be sad.

All of this paints a grim picture of him, but most of the time, he is very kind. He is a good person, and I know he wants me to be happy. I am torn between ending this relationship and giving it another go. He will be moving in a month though - so giving it another go means being long distance for at least a year, possibly more. But we have 4 years together, and many happy times. I don''t know if things can be salvaged at this point. It''s not that we''re fighting or anything like that, it''s that we''re stuck. Everything feels so stagnant, and has for a long time now. For reference, I am 28 years old and he is 33.

I would really appreciate some perspective, especially if you have had any similar experiences. I am lost here -- I think I''ve made a decision, and then two hours later, I change my mind. At this point, I am sick over this. Thanks for any advice you can give.

Olive

 

[bee*]

Hi Olive, welcome to PS

From reading your post, it sounds to me that although you both get on most of the time, Im not sure if you''re right for each other in a relationship. Unfortunately it sounds like you''ve grown apart and I''m not sure if he doesn''t realise it, or he does and doesn''t want to talk about it. From reading your post, if I was in that position, Im not sure if I would go to Europe with him. It seems to be hard to get him to sit down and talk about it so maybe write a letter to him just so you can get your points across. I understand that you have 4 years of history built up with him, but you sound miserable in your post and your relationship shouldn''t be you sitting on the couch close to tears and him running to bed. Maybe take a break while he goes to Europe for a year and then when you''re finished your phD you can reevaluate what you want and you can decide to join him or you might have found someone else who matches you more. I know it''s so difficult to picture yourself with someone else other than our SO but you just have to look into yourself also and see are you just staying in the relationship because of your past history or is it what you really really want.

 

[monarch64]

wellllll,blech. That''s my initial response! My secondary response is that this guy has no idea what he wants in life but you do, so you should seek it out for yourself! IMO, he''s letting you know he''s just not into marriage at this point. But if you are, but you feel like you may not be in love with him anymore, that''s a sure sign to me that you''re ready to move on and find someone who has similar goals in mind. No sense spending time with a man who has no idea of what he really wants in life, to put it very delicately.

 

[zoebartlett]

I''m sorry you''re going through this! I''d try to have at least one heart to heart talk before your boyfriend leaves, but stress to him how important it is to you that this be done BEFORE he leaves (sorry if that sounded redundant). He''s avoiding talking about all of this but it needs to happen at some point. Maybe him leaving for Europe will give you both space and time to think about what the two of you truly want. It sounds as if he''s just not ready to make a forever kind of commitment, especially when he''s about to leave for Europe for a work related opportunity. It sounds like he needs to see that through. It also sounds like you need to see your PhD through and complete that before thinking of moving to Europe as well. I wouldn''t move there until things were fantastic between you two and it doesn''t seem that way right now. It does seem as if you''ve begun to drift apart. Again, I''m sorry you''re going through such a hard time. I hope everything works out.


zoe

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 7/31/2007 6:39:22 AM
Author: monarch64
wellllll,blech. That's my initial response! My secondary response is that this guy has no idea what he wants in life but you do, so you should seek it out for yourself! IMO, he's letting you know he's just not into marriage at this point. But if you are, but you feel like you may not be in love with him anymore, that's a sure sign to me that you're ready to move on and find someone who has similar goals in mind. No sense spending time with a man who has no idea of what he really wants in life, to put it very delicately.

Great post Monnie and I wish you the best of luck Olive, I know this must be so hard for you but perhaps it is a sign that perhaps what you are looking for in life isn't meant to be with this chap and you may need to move on to find it. I think you need to lay the cards on the table and try to make him do the same, then you know whatever happens, you gave it your best shot.

 

[Tigerbear]

You did not miss him while you were apart from him? I think that is very telling. I literally can not imagine that being the case if he was the great love of your life.

 

[KimberlyH]

Can I ask why you want to marry a man that you can cheat on emotionally and spend several months away from and not miss, or even really think about? Or am man that can''t have a serious conversation about anything? This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Perhaps his moving to Europe is a blessing in disguise.

 

[DivaDiamond007]

Olive: I am sorry that you are having a difficult time in your relationship. I also think that you need to discuss your future with him before he leaves in order to get a sense of where this is going. If he is genuinely not interest in marriage then you should move on. Further, if you do not miss him when you are apart then maybe it''s not meant to be. It is such a difficult position to be in when you have so much time invested in this relationship. Communication is a huge part of being married and it doesn''t seem that it''s one of his strong points. Keep us posted and good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Jess

 

[janinegirly]

hi olive,
there are multiple things going on in your post, i''ll try to tie my thoughts together.

first of all, i''ll come right out and say i think it might be best to end the relationship. it sounds like it''s kind of ending anyway, and his move to europe just makes the timing a natural opportunity to really assess things. my reason for suggesting ending it is there are too many red flags. I do think your bf cares for you and maybe did want to marry you (or still does), but you are right that he needs to communicate better. however you also need to be more understanding of his style--many men are not able to verbalize feelings and if they are feeling cornered, will retreat (not talk). him saying he doesn''t know "how to fix things" kind of confirms to me that''s what''s going on with him.
secondly, he is moving to europe and you cannot go with him for at least a year--that is a huge challenge to a relationship at the 3-4 yr mark (when things should be moving towards marriage). It is feasible, but hearing that you no longer care for him and also went away for weeks and became emotionally close to another man--just kind of doesn''t leave much hope for what would be an already difficult challenge (long distance relationship where communication is challenging).
So those are my thoughts, i hope it makes sense. i know it''s difficult to think about something ending after 3 yrs, but it sounds like you are not as in love as you once were, so it''s best to be honest and fair about everything--being 30 and wanting children soon isn''t a good enough reason to hang onto something that isn''t working..

 

[ImpatientOne]

Hi Olive,

I just wanted to throw my .02 in here! I was recently married after being single for a long, long time. I dated a lot of men during that time. It read some of the Mars/Venus books, and boy, they were a real eye opener for me. I think the most important thing I took away from the books was that while we can love someone dearly, that doesn''t necessarily mean they are the right one for us. We have to connect with our partner on various different levels (emotional, physical, mental, spiritual etc). While I had connected with previous partners on a few of those levels, there was always something missing. With my husband, we connected on all levels and life is wonderful. He is truly my soulmate.

I don''t know if your relationship can or should be salvaged. Only you can answer that. But one thing you need to realize, your bf is the way he is. You can''t change him - only he can change himself IF he wants to! You need to take a good hard look and decide if you can really live your life with someone who is so unwilling to communicate his feelings with you.

Best wishes!

 

[Aloros]

I''m so sorry you''re going through this, Olive

.

I''m going to have to agree with what everyone else is saying. He may be a nice guy, and is good to you, but he clearly has problems communicating with you, and from your emotional affair, it sounds like what you this is not enough for you. You don''t need to settle for a man who can''t have a serious discussion without fleeing to bed.

He''s moving in a month. Have you discussed what is happening with your relationship then? Are you going to attempt to remain together or not? Maybe you need to just point-blank ask him, without getting emotional, "Do you want to get married?" and then maybe "Do you want to get married to me?" and if that''s affirmative as well, "What''s stopping you?"

I wish you the best of luck. Take care.

 

[neatfreak]

I agree with Monarch too hon! You said it all yourself, you might love this guy, but you are not IN LOVE with him. Once he goes and you break it off you would know very quickly if it were the wrong decision. Since you already went away and came back and still don''t KNOW you want to be with him, I think you have your answer.

 

[Olive Oil]

Hi Ladies,

Thank you for your honest posts. It feels better to just have told someone what has happened and where I am.

Kimberly: To answer your question, I do not know whether I want to marry him or not. If he asked now, the answer would be no. At the time that I really wanted to get married, I would have missed him if I were gone for that long. Something just changed about the way I felt -- I think it was changing for a while, but the realization sort of snuck up on me. I suppose part of the reason I am so conflicted is because I am afraid that the feeling of indifference is something fleeting. Relationships take work to be successful, and I don''t want to jump ship too soon. And maybe I am looking at other possibilites through rose colored glasses -- Any relationship will probably have probelms at some level. Our relationship has been through a lot - we are both in academia in a very demanding field. We mananged to get through some really difficult times there, and so I wonder why now? Why do things seem to be falling apart now?

I feel the need to say that I feel like developing an emotional attachment to another man was very wrong of me. I justified in my head at the time by saying it was just a friendship, and that should be fine. But in reality, the friendship filled a void in what was missing in my own relationship. At times, it seemed much more romantic than my actual relationship. What I did was awful, and it weighs heavily on me.

Aloros: Since he found out that he was leaving, our plan has been to stay together. He originally said "we''ll see what happens," but after a while that changed to "we''ll make it work."

I am not sure -- he may be thinking the same thoughts I am. Part of me wonders, if he is into making things work, and I have told him that I feel indifferent, then why isn''t he fighting for our relationship? Maybe he wants to move on, but just can''t figure out how to say it. I don''t know.

I want to talk to him again, but I am not sure how. I have historically been bad at ending relationships (not that I am sure that I want to end this one, but if I do not get some feedback from him, I know that I will). I try to say things delicately, and I don''t always get my point across. I am not even sure how to start the conversation. Besides the lack of communication, there are a few other things that seem like deal breakers to me. He doesn''t include me in his financial decisions (which from my view, are often irresponsible). He thinks that if he has young children, it is feasible for him to work 60 hours a week. I do not want to give up my career -- it is going quite well right now -- but if we had children and he was working 60 hours a week, I would feel obligated to cut my work down because I would want them to have more time with their parents. In academia, cutting back work too much is a death sentence. All of these things together may make a future for us impossible.

Any suggestions on how to talk to him? I need to do this soon, as it is eating away at me. I can''t sleep (I got just an hour last night), I feel shaky randomly throughout the day, and I can''t keep doing this without some sort of change.

 

[curiopotter]

You need to make a list.

You need to be specific, and write down everything you need from him, and where you want your life to go in the future. You should pick a time and place free from distractions. I would avoid talking to him at the house, because if he uses the excuse that he's tired and goes to bed, then it will be easy for him to back out of your converation. Maybe go to a park, or pick some place safe and private.

Try to be more pragmatic in your life. Your priority right now should be to finish your PhD. Like my mother has always stressed in my life, there is nothing more important than finishing your education, because you can never predict your future with a man. Which is true... although thank God my parents have been married now for 32 years now. You need to work on finishing your goals, and if that's impossible to do while you're together, then you need to be strong and decisive in the decision you make regarding the future of your relationship.

Here's an example:
My FF and I have talked about our future plans. I'll be out of school next spring, and he'll have a few more years to finish his degree. We know that his career choice will take us all over the country, if not the world, and I'm fine with that. We've scheduled our lives around each other, and where one person will succeed, the other will be there in support. When he's doing his out of state internship, I'll be with him during the summer. When he graduates and gets a job, I'll be getting my master's. If there's a problem, we have 'backup' plans.

Being vauge with your plans together can be a huge problem, and adds feelings of uncertainty in your relationship, so there's no wonder you feel so emotionally numb. When you have plans, and specific opportunities you can share together, you have something to look forward to, and you're able to grow and evolve together because you share common goals. But if those plans are impeded, because your goals are on separate planes, then it's just obvious why you're feeling so conflicted, especially when you have so much invested in the next few years. Remember, that just because you've invested 4 years of your life to someone, doesn't mean you you need to spend the next 40 with them, regretting your decision later. You still have time to start over.

Make a list. Be specific. Avoid distractions. Be Strong.

I hope you find the happiness you deserve.

 

[poshpepper]

Date: 7/31/2007 2:46:03 PM
Author: Olive Oil
Hi Ladies,



Something just changed about the way I felt -- I think it was changing for a while, but the realization sort of snuck up on me.

Any relationship will probably have probelms at some level.

We mananged to get through some really difficult times there, and so I wonder why now?

Why do things seem to be falling apart now?

Just wanted to throw my .02 in on these...

I was in a relationship where it felt like I was happy one day and then indifferent the next -- almost exactly as you describe.. it just snuck up on me. I think that I was rationalizing and making excuses to myself to THINK that I was happy and then one day the fog cleared and I realized he was never going to change or do what I was asking him to do (long story)... so it felt like a sudden realization but in reality it was a long time coming...

EVERY relationship (romantic or not) WILL have problems at some level... this is guaranteed. The hard thing is to find someone that is willing to work at the relationship WITH you... not sit there and refuse communicate.

As for the "why now" question: People change and not necessarily together. It is very easy to grow apart and change without each other (as opposed to with each other) which at some point will cause you to come to the realization that you have grown apart. Its not like something happened yesterday that suddenly made you change overnight and realize your differences. Things like that take a while and then one day you realize it.

My suspicion (from a past experience) is that this "other man" that you had the "emotional affair" with may have something to do with your realization (if only on a subconscious level).

I wish you the best for your situation. Hope everything goes well and turns out okay.

 

[sleeping beauty]

Hi Olive,

All the things i could have said, have already been said by all these wonderful ladies. Im glad you have a great head on your shoulders and decided to finish your PhD above anything else. looks like you guys are not in the same page, try talking to him and if he shuts you down try maybe writing him a letter, i have always found i communicate best in writing. During the time hes away use it to explore your options and see if you MISS him or not and move from there.

 

[decodelighted]

Yes you can talk it out and make lists and try to cook up the perfect approach & least confrontational tact etc etc etc ...

BUT -- what if you didn''t? What would happen? Nothing? Just drift apart ... leave w/o a discussion. If he''d let that happen after your PREVIOUS attempts at discussion how "into this" could he really be?

As other wise ladies have said before here "No answer really is an answer." IMO, men who *want* to marry make their feelings known. And men who are moving out of the country in A MONTH but are "too tired" to discuss the relationship have already "left". At least emotionally. JMHO.

 

[KimberlyH]

Date: 7/31/2007 6:43:23 PM
Author: decodelighted
Yes you can talk it out and make lists and try to cook up the perfect approach & least confrontational tact etc etc etc ...

BUT -- what if you didn''t? What would happen? Nothing? Just drift apart ... leave w/o a discussion. If he''d let that happen after your PREVIOUS attempts at discussion how ''into this'' could he really be?

As other wise ladies have said before here ''No answer really is an answer.'' IMO, men who *want* to marry make their feelings known. And men who are moving out of the country in A MONTH but are ''too tired'' to discuss the relationship have already ''left''. At least emotionally. JMHO.

Ding, ding ding!

It sounds like both of you are checked out of this relationship, it''s just easier to stay in it as neither of you seems to require much out of the other.

 

[onedrop]

Ditto on everything that has been said. I will just add for emphasis that if you are having trouble communicating now, then I don''t see how that is going to change (without work) down the road. Your BF seems to be telling you everything you need to know without really *saying* anything. Sometimes statements like "I don''t know" in response to life changing questions can be very telling. Neither you nor your BF seem very committed to keeping the relationship afloat, and I am not sure why you are really wanting to stay, save for comfort purposes. You deserve to be in a loving, giving, committed relationship. Don''t sell yourself short.

 

[Haven]

Olive, I''m so sorry to hear you''re going through this anguish. I think Deco said it best with "IMO, men who *want* to marry make their feelings known. And men who are moving out of the country in A MONTH but are "too tired" to discuss the relationship have already "left". At least emotionally. JMHO."

I was in a five year relationship prior to my current one, and we ended up in a very similar situation as you are in now: I originally wanted a commitment, he was unsure, then he proposed and by that time I was a bit unsure but said yes, THEN I got a full ride for a law school clear across the country and was very very tempted to accept it even though I had an offer for a full ride right at home in Chicago. The fact is that even though we had been together for so long, we had become different people and these different people just didn''t work right anymore.

The writing is on the wall for you: you developed an emotional connection with another man, your BF is willing to move to another country without you, you didn''t miss him while you were away--these things are not the signs of a functional relationship.

I know it''s really difficult to end a relationship, especially after four years, but trust me--it''s even harder to stay in a relationship that just isn''t right.

You want to be married someday, you want children, and you deserve a strong, loving relationship. I say seek these things out, you''ll be amazed how good it feels to be with someone who really truly honestly loves you and wants you to be a huge part of their life.

Good luck, Olive, and let us know how you''re doing, okay?

 

[diamondfan]

Sometimes the answer is right in front of us and we have a tough time seeing it for a variety of reasons. I would never tell you to leave or not, since I simply do not know enough, but I am just summing up from what you have posted. Because you care for him and change is tough and scary, I understand it is hard to see things drfit away and not fight for it. However, as many have pointed out, you were able to connect emotionally with someone else and be gone from him without too much difficulty. He is about to leave and cannot find a bit of time to discuss what this means to your relationship and what the future might hold. I do see red flags, because tired or not, he should be willing to talk to you about this, and also, though you certainly were not physical with the man you mentioned, you certainly felt connected to him on a level it seems you did not attain with your boyfriend.

I hear a lot from people, well we have be together X years so it would seem to be a waste if it does not end in marriage. My comment is nothing is a waste, and why throw more years into something that might not be the right thing? I do not think there is ONE right person, yet, clearly, signs indicate here he is not truly in the realm. Why put in more efforts and time if you are just going to end up in the same place a few years from now? You cannot get those years back. Change and relationship shifts are sad and difficult but nonetheless sometimes need to occur. Good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[Delster]

Olive I''m so sorry you''re having such a hard time. You''ve gotten lots of good advice here and you must have lots to think about. It''s not good if you can go away for months at a time and not miss him, or that he doesn''t want to talk with you about it all. Take care of yourself, and do check in and let us know how you are doing.

 

[Pandora II]

My honest feeling is that this man has already decided to move on and sees his move to Europe as a way to do this without having to have any scenes or tears etc in person - you can just gently drift apart. I see huge red flags in everything you say.

It seems to me that you have reached the death throes of this relationship too and need to move on.

My parents gave me some advice that I wish I had taken in a lot of previous relationships:

a) You shouldn''t have too work too hard at a relationship before marriage. If it isn''t pretty darn perfect before you marry it''s not going to be afterwards.

b) If a relationship is going badly - walk away, you''re not in a marriage and you don''t have kids.

c) Date lots of people before you make your choice - don''t waste time on the wrong person.

Personally I don''t think you should feel bad for going off with someone else. I did that in a 7 year relationship and it was the best thing I ever did as it opened my eyes to how unhappy I really was.

People only cheat for 3 reasons:

They are a nasty piece of work.
They have met the great love of their life.
They are deeply unhappy in their current relationship and their needs are not being met.

 

[Cehrabehra]

LD makes you or breaks you.... if you haven''t come to a resolution before he goes abroad, I suspect it won''t be long after that a resolution comes about. Sometimes the distance shows you that you don''t need to be with the person and to move on.... sometimes the distance becomes more and more painful that you MUST be together. You''ll know soon enough... I wouldn''t try to rush for answers. They will come. If you don''t already know....

 

[Olive Oil]

Thank you all for your insights and advice.

I finally got up the courage to talk to him yesterday. It was cathartic, to say the least. I talked, he talked (some). We both cried, which I have never seen him do. He said that he didn't think we should even think about marriage until we were both happier, and it was something we could work on, but he didn't know if I still wanted to. I told him I was just too emotionally exhausted, and I didn't have the energy to fix things right now. And I said that didn't mean I never would, but I don't know. And I told him maybe him going to Europe was a good thing, because we could take an indefinite break for now, and when I am deciding on post-docs, we can reevaluate the situation. He seemed to understand, I think he is exhausted too. I, of course, have only told my side of the story, but I assure you I am far from perfect. We are both drained. Neither of us is angry. I think we were both a bit relieved to finally say these things. Still, I am moody about it -- I feel glad about the decision, but then two hours later I feel like I am going to cry..... But I think that is natural and it will pass.

The thing I am confused about a bit though -- he didn't act like anything happened today. We were not doing so well before, so we weren't particularly affectionate, but he seems almost as if everything is the same... It is weird. Maybe it is because neither of us is angry, and we both know we still care about one another... but still, I find it a little unsettling.

 

[KimberlyH]

OO,

I''m glad you had the chance to talk. It sounds as though you live together, if that''s the case and you''re going to "take a break" I would start looking for an apt. and let him finish out the lease where you are until he leaves for England. Living together isn''t going to be conducive to figuring out what you both really want, it will simply lead to more of the same (staying together because you''re comfortable). For the record, I don''t think you''ve painted a bad picture of him...you''ve painted a picture of two people who are together because it''s convenient and comfortable, but not in love. He''s likely acting the same because it sounds like not a whole lot has changed, you guys talked but no action has occured so there is nothing to react to yet.