Possible Antique Alexandrite?

[VintageValuables]

Hi everyone! Im pretty new to posting but I've been reading on here for a while! I love seeing all the amazing pieces and information you guys share! I am currently working on my GIA GG and buy/sell a lot of antique and vintage jewelry. I recently came across this ring and was wondering if anyone could give their opinion on the stone? Ring is 9k (stamped on outside of the band) id date it to about the 1860's and the center stone is 6mm. It appears to be an alexandrite as it goes from a teal to a mauve purple. Bright and complete color shift.(pix do not do it justice) Mixed light produces mixed colors. In a ring this old it should be Russian right? I know how incredibly rare those are thats why id love anyone's thoughts on this piece! Ring was sold to me as costume. (btw Im not far enough along with GIA to test it, and i don't have the funds to send it to AGL.) Thanks so much!

 

[Marlow]

RI and pleochroism ( dichroscope) ???

 

[chrono]

At this point, I would find find out whether it is a natural alexandrite or a synthetic or simulant. Synthetics have been around since early 1900 and vanadium laced synthetic corundum, a common simulant, even before then. Since the stone is around 1 ct, you can opt for the AGL brief (but no origin) at $75 for a mounted stone. If this is too costly, I'd do as Marlow advised to try to find out the RI reading.
http://aglgemlab.com/pricelist

 

[liao]

the design looks pretty antique, but I do not think it's a 1860s ring. I got an old alex ring from my grand dad, and the design is more vintage like. he said it was a ring he bought in early 1900s. However, it is still a possiblility that a plain ring like yours is a 1860s ring. Who knows, may be someone in 1860s love plain looking ring than the 'exotic' one.

where do you live? if you live in asia, send it to GRS. If possible... ofc... Gubelin!!!!

 

[pokerface]

It's a pretty ring, but I'd put money on it being exactly what it was sold as - costume jewelry. The stone looks too clean to be anything other than simulated or synthetic, the gold is only 9k, and the prongs look a bit cheap. I personally wouldn't spend money on a lab report, but hey, you never know.

 

[VintageValuables]

Hi all! Thanks so much for getting back to me!

@Marlow Can't get RI & Pleochroism, don't have the testing equipment yet, but i am trying to find someone local who can help out!

@Chrono i don't believe its a corundum, i have a few of those and this is something completely different. Synth Alex corundum tend to be more of a royal purple color and do not completely change colors. A brief is always a good idea, do they have to remove stone from mounting to identify it? The prongs are damaged and cannot be removed unless repaired.

@ liao hi!I deal with quite a few antique rings and i believe this could be as old as 1860's but certainly not newer than 1880's. You don't really see that type of setting much into the 1900's! & I'm in the US!

@pokerface I highly doubt it is costume. Thats why I'm on here. The stone isn't completely clean, you can't see it in the photos, but there are some fracture like inclusion on the underside of the pavilion, I can try and get a macro shot if anyone is interested? And the prongs look cheap because they are damaged and in desperate need of repair. The stone was spinning when i got it and they are almost completely cut through.

 

[chrono]

I would not discount vanadium laced synthetic corundum. They aren't royal purple but purple-mauve with very good colour change which sounds very similar to what you have. Under magnification, you might see gas bubbles and curved stria.

 

[VintageValuables]

@Chrono Im not discounting anything at all! I just think its unlikely because I've never heard of a vanadium corundum having complete color change to a teal? The tend to keep their general bodycolor but show flashes of reds and blue/purples? Unless theres another type of material I'm not aware of?

& I see no bubbles or stria. Just a few fracture like inclusions? under the pavilion.

I also heard lab alex tends to react under short wave uv (i.e. glowing red) more strongly than natural alex? Have you heard of this? My stone is inert.

btw thanks so much for your help!

 

[liao]

@Chrono Im not discounting anything at all! I just think its unlikely because I've never heard of a vanadium corundum having complete color change to a teal? The tend to keep their general bodycolor but show flashes of reds and blue/purples? Unless theres another type of material I'm not aware of?

& I see no bubbles or stria. Just a few fracture like inclusions? under the pavilion.

I also heard lab alex tends to react under short wave uv (i.e. glowing red) more strongly than natural alex? Have you heard of this? My stone is inert.

btw thanks so much for your help!

No. natural alex fluorescence due to the present of chromium and one other element (vanadium if I remember correctly). The finest natural alex have very strong fluorescence. if your stone is inert, it only mean that the present of other substance is very high (correct me if I am wrong).

if you sure that your stone is a natural alex, send it to SSEF. In my experience, SSEF have more experience in determining russian origin alex than gubelin. Do not get me wrong tho, both SSEF and Gubelin are my fav lab for decades. However, I have several alex with both cert. while SSEF dare to conclude the stone's russian origin, Gubelin said they could not determine its origin.

Remember, a fine russian alex sold at much higher premium than even an old and fine brazilian alex

 

[VintageValuables]

Yes, many alex do fluoresce due to chromium, but i have also read that some have a higher iron component that negates that effect? Also lab alex don't have iron so they pretty much all react under uv?

& Im not sure thats why I'm asking around here before throwing $$ at a lab. I want to see peoples feelings on this before i send it in! and SSEF & Gubelin are located outside the US right? I was thinking about possibly sending it to AGL because its in New York. It always makes me nervous to ship internationally.

& i know russian are almost non existent thats why I'm treading carefully.

 

[liao]

Yes, many alex do fluoresce due to chromium, but i have also read that some have a higher iron component that negates that effect? Also lab alex don't have iron so they pretty much all react under uv?

& Im not sure thats why I'm asking around here before throwing $$ at a lab. I want to see peoples feelings on this before i send it in! and SSEF & Gubelin are located outside the US right? I was thinking about possibly sending it to AGL because its in New York. It always makes me nervous to ship internationally.

& i know russian are almost non existent thats why I'm treading carefully.

First, make sure that the stone is natural alex. AGL's alexandrite brief is enough. I do not have much experience with AGL, but I sent several alex and color shift chrysoberyl. It looks like they are pretty good lab (or may be as good as Gubelin and SSEF)

where do you live? if you know some faculty of big university in your town, ask them them to run x ray fluorescence test to get the relative weight of V, Cr, and Fe. If I remember correctly

russian alex is rare, but not as rare as you think. I saw 6 russian alex in private auction in HK freeport several weeks ago.

 

[liao]

No no no! I am sorry, I just had a senior moment those alex that I saw in the auction are Brazilian. and for some reason, I cannot edit my post

Russian alex is rare, most of them are in the hand of collectors. However, in some occasion, some vendors that I know can get their hand on a real russian alex. So, I do not think that they are almost non existent

 

[Marlow]

@Chrono Im not discounting anything at all! I just think its unlikely because I've never heard of a vanadium corundum having complete color change to a teal? The tend to keep their general bodycolor but show flashes of reds and blue/purples? Unless theres another type of material I'm not aware of?

& I see no bubbles or stria. Just a few fracture like inclusions? under the pavilion.

I also heard lab alex tends to react under short wave uv (i.e. glowing red) more strongly than natural alex? Have you heard of this? My stone is inert.

btw thanks so much for your help!

No. natural alex fluorescence due to the present of chromium and one other element (vanadium if I remember correctly). The finest natural alex have very strong fluorescence. if your stone is inert, it only mean that the present of other substance is very high (correct me if I am wrong).

if you sure that your stone is a natural alex, send it to SSEF. In my experience, SSEF have more experience in determining russian origin alex than gubelin. Do not get me wrong tho, both SSEF and Gubelin are my fav lab for decades. However, I have several alex with both cert. while SSEF dare to conclude the stone's russian origin, Gubelin said they could not determine its origin.

Remember, a fine russian alex sold at much higher premium than even an old and fine brazilian alex

Vanadium is def NOT responsible for red fluor! My Vanadium Chrysos are inert except one pale bluish green stone with a 1:1 V : Cr ratio - this stone has an extremely low Iron content - my four Leuco Chrysoberyl are inert.
Red fluor is neither an indication for natural or synthetic alex nor high or low quality alex ( if the strenght of the change is what you understand with "quality")

ALL my alexandrites are vivid strong red using LW UV - strong change or moderate - even a weak changing tanzanian (Tunduru) Alex is red.
A very small chrome content is responsible for red fluor.
The Chrome : Vanadium : Iron ratio is NOT a sign for russian orign - the amount of Ge, Ta and high Sn is a sign for russian orign.

LIke Muzo emerald you find very low to extremely fine stones among russians alexandrite - around 1990-1992 russian vendor ( scientist) offered larger amounts of small alexandrite - most show a nice daylight and a weak change - some ( I bought a pale grayish green with a nice change to pink - only 0,15 ct ) with a good change - the brazilian alexandrite offered at the same time were MUCH!!!! better.

OP - first check - as a GIA student you will be able to do this - RI and pleochroism.

Sometimes I don't understand why we have to post this so many times - if you make a cake you will not discuss whether it is sugar or salt - you try it!

If it is Alex then try to find inclusions and twinning. Then decide whether you send it to a lab. A lower gold amount is not a sign for cheap jewellery. A hallmark on the outside??? Other hallmarks???

 

[Marlow]

Hi all! Thanks so much for getting back to me!

@Marlow Can't get RI & Pleochroism, don't have the testing equipment yet, but i am trying to find someone local who can help out!

You need it if you are a GIA student and deal with jewellery !!!!

@Chrono i don't believe its a corundum, i have a few of those and this is something completely different. Synth Alex corundum tend to be more of a royal purple color and do not completely change colors. A brief is always a good idea, do they have to remove stone from mounting to identify it? The prongs are damaged and cannot be removed unless repaired.

Gemology is a science not a religion!!! Don't BELIEVE it is a saphir or not - check it!!!

@ liao hi!I deal with quite a few antique rings and i believe this could be as old as 1860's but certainly not newer than 1880's. You don't really see that type of setting much into the 1900's! & I'm in the US!

@pokerface I highly doubt it is costume. Thats why I'm on here. The stone isn't completely clean, you can't see it in the photos, but there are some fracture like inclusion on the underside of the pavilion, I can try and get a macro shot if anyone is interested? And the prongs look cheap because they are damaged and in desperate need of repair. The stone was spinning when i got it and they are almost completely cut through.

A macro would be perfect!!!

 

[VintageValuables]

Hi @Marlow thanks for all the info! And i am a GIA student, but very early in my career, and i haven't taken Gem ID,and I'm not lucky enough to be on campus. (distance edu) I am trying to get equipment as soon as i can though. I am also attending another University for a bachelors degree and unfortunately its taking a while. (i apologize for posting without this info or testing equipment, but i thought i might get some initial reactions to the piece)

& Yes, stamped on the outside of the band. Ive seen some older european and russian jewelry stamped like this. No other hallmarks.

& im not making conclusions, i am just speculating until testing can be done.

New pix shows 9k stamp. (sorry its really small) & Ill try and get a macro shot if possible after my camera charges!

 

[VintageValuables]

@liao Im near Los Angeles, CA I am currently attending California State University Northridge, so thats a good idea, they might have the right equipment there! & I was also thinking about taking it downtown to the jewelry district and seeing if they might have anything helpful there. I have a few other pieces which need repaired and have been meaning to make a trip.

 

[liao]

@liao Im near Los Angeles, CA I am currently attending California State University Northridge, so thats a good idea, they might have the right equipment there! & I was also thinking about taking it downtown to the jewelry district and seeing if they might have anything helpful there. I have a few other pieces which need repaired and have been meaning to make a trip.

near LA? take it to UCLA. They have LA-ICP-MS. From what I heard from Marlow, LA-ICP-MS gives better result than XRF test, and you can also get the result for Ge, Ta and Sn.

forget about vendors in LA's jewelry district.

 

[VintageValuables]

@liao That sounds like a plan! & this might be a dumb question, but does the stone have to be removed to test it? Also do you know which department to contact about testing? Thanks again for your help!

 

[Marlow]

I am sure they have to remove the stone.

Try to get instruments - otherwise you will buy faked stone and miss good items course you have a bad feeling. A dichroscope is very cheap - you can seperate glass ( ruby or sapphire) or synthetic spinel ( imitation for aquamarine) very fast.

 

[chrono]

The most accurate results is with a loose stone. In fact, I think most testing requires the stone to be loose. I would not bother with bringing it to the jewellery district. Get the RI first, then proceed from there.

 

[liao]

@Chrono Im not discounting anything at all! I just think its unlikely because I've never heard of a vanadium corundum having complete color change to a teal? The tend to keep their general bodycolor but show flashes of reds and blue/purples? Unless theres another type of material I'm not aware of?

& I see no bubbles or stria. Just a few fracture like inclusions? under the pavilion.

I also heard lab alex tends to react under short wave uv (i.e. glowing red) more strongly than natural alex? Have you heard of this? My stone is inert.

btw thanks so much for your help!

No. natural alex fluorescence due to the present of chromium and one other element (vanadium if I remember correctly). The finest natural alex have very strong fluorescence. if your stone is inert, it only mean that the present of other substance is very high (correct me if I am wrong).

if you sure that your stone is a natural alex, send it to SSEF. In my experience, SSEF have more experience in determining russian origin alex than gubelin. Do not get me wrong tho, both SSEF and Gubelin are my fav lab for decades. However, I have several alex with both cert. while SSEF dare to conclude the stone's russian origin, Gubelin said they could not determine its origin.

Remember, a fine russian alex sold at much higher premium than even an old and fine brazilian alex

Vanadium is def NOT responsible for red fluor! My Vanadium Chrysos are inert except one pale bluish green stone with a 1:1 V : Cr ratio - this stone has an extremely low Iron content - my four Leuco Chrysoberyl are inert.
Red fluor is neither an indication for natural or synthetic alex nor high or low quality alex ( if the strenght of the change is what you understand with "quality")

ALL my alexandrites are vivid strong red using LW UV - strong change or moderate - even a weak changing tanzanian (Tunduru) Alex is red.
A very small chrome content is responsible for red fluor.
The Chrome : Vanadium : Iron ratio is NOT a sign for russian orign - the amount of Ge, Ta and high Sn is a sign for russian orign.

LIke Muzo emerald you find very low to extremely fine stones among russians alexandrite - around 1990-1992 russian vendor ( scientist) offered larger amounts of small alexandrite - most show a nice daylight and a weak change - some ( I bought a pale grayish green with a nice change to pink - only 0,15 ct ) with a good change - the brazilian alexandrite offered at the same time were MUCH!!!! better.

OP - first check - as a GIA student you will be able to do this - RI and pleochroism.

Sometimes I don't understand why we have to post this so many times - if you make a cake you will not discuss whether it is sugar or salt - you try it!

If it is Alex then try to find inclusions and twinning. Then decide whether you send it to a lab. A lower gold amount is not a sign for cheap jewellery. A hallmark on the outside??? Other hallmarks???

ups... my bad

@liao That sounds like a plan! & this might be a dumb question, but does the stone have to be removed to test it? Also do you know which department to contact about testing? Thanks again for your help!

I always buy loose stone, so I never test a stone with setting. However I believe you have to remove it. Come on! do you homework. most of UCLA faculty members' contact information is publicly available in the internet. It will not be hard to find a nice faculty member who want to help you out.

 

[T L]

Pretty ring. Is the stone dirty in there, or just included. Real alexandrite often has silk like inclusions called "clouds." If you could at least clean it and show us a more direct picture.

 

[VintageValuables]

Hi, @TL i did make sure to clean the ring before it posted! Im not sure what your seeing? Most of the stone is clean, but there is a section I'm trying to get a better look at. There appears to be an area of fracture like inclusions (possibly feathers), but it is hard to see as the setting partly blocks. Im not very experienced with inclusions identification so i can't say for certain what I'm seeing, I'm still learning!

I'm trying to get a macro shot but my camera is being a pain. All of these are on an iPhone and they aren't too good.

& i do really like this little ring, thats why i thought id see what you guys think about it! Everyone's been so helpful!