Question for the Experts on Tsavorite

[MJO]

Hi All,

I sent some stones to Richard Holmer to have analyzed for recutting. On some of the stones he told me he didn''t think it was worth it from a value reason because the material was too valuable to lose any.


6) 11.50ct oval super fine orange spessartite......outstanding gem but
the weight loss would put it under 10ct and we just cannot do that for
this gem material....too valuable for recut wt loss, though it would be
the largest concave faceted spessartite in the world(!)


9) 11.22ct trillian spessartite; great stone with great color but too
valuable to recut with its estimated recut going under 10ct. The stone
is too bulged to much impact only recutting with 10% bulge removal and
probably not worth doing from a value standpoint except in beauty of
course. This one I would have suggested doing something extra special
with to enter into competition but that would be extra weight loss too
in order to impart a unique artistic design...so better off leaving it
as is.

11) 6.57ct Tsavorite...outstanding gem! I see what you mean by being
out of symmetry in the girdle outline, but I don''t know that it is
worth doing unless it REALLY bothers you. The outline is so rounded,
by the time I realign the symmetry to perfection and then recut the
crown and pavilion to bring the girdle thickness back into normal, I
think we would lose more weight and spend more money in labor than the
aesthetic improvement would be worth....again unless it really bothers
you a lot. I could probably do the regirdling and recutting of the
crown and pavilion ever so gently and lose maybe 1ct. A more minor
regirlding...keeping the strong roundish outline but just improving the
"offish look" somewhat ....probably lose 1/2ct or so...probably can
keep 6ct. But even then, I don''t know that if this gem were mine, that
I would go to such a weight loss for this minor aesthetic appeal. I am
just blown away by the color! In any case, option A would cost about
XXXXX in labor and option B about XXXXX in labor.....very tough,
demanding, technical detail.

Richard said I had to make the final decision so I am asking all experts here for their opinions. Does the cutting matter if it''s not "that bad" to begin with.

 

[Sagebrush]

MJO,

Talk about a difficult question. Its a judgement call and impossible without seeing the stone. But, it does provide me with an opportunity to talk a bit about concave cutting.

Some time ago Josh Roux and another member posted before and after blue sapphire photos that I have to say showed quite an improvement but in each case the stones were not optimal tone. Does concave faceting tone down the color. I would be interested in some expert feedback on that question.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/16/2005 10:46:59 AM
Author:MJO

Does the cutting matter if it's not 'that bad' to begin with.

No... well... at least not to me. It sounds like Richard imparted the normal conservative approach. Perhaps one might argue that the number of funky cut fans out there would increase and so wasting gem mass in favor of some trendy finishing touches might start being worthwhile one day. However, it does not seem that the respective day has come. If it does, you can always have a gem carved. It is not possible to peg back the shavings.

If market value does not matter and you are cool with the idea of spending both labor cost and wasted gem value for getting that perfect thing to wear, why not. How hard would it be to obtain another set of stones like these set off to the chop ?

To me, the sound of "competition cut" rings great. If anyone else values exotic cuts over the traditional enough to foot the cost, the same buyers would value the more intricate versions. Not to mention the potential competitive pedigree. Just one thing to ponder, IMO.
Spessartite might be allot easier to replace than the green garnet, no ?

 

[MJO]

Hello Richard,

The tsavorite in question was not going to be concave cut but recut with flat facets. The girdle is wavy but the stone looks good from the top.

In reply to your other question. I had Mr. Holmer concave cut an unheated Burmese Sapphire for me. I had an AGL cert done prior and after the recut. The color remained at 4.0, the brilliance went from an average of 60% to 90% and the clarity went up on grade. Also tone stayed at 70.

Regards,
Maurice

 

[MJO]

Hello Ana,

The tsavorite in question was to recut in a normal flat fact to improve that cut not a concave. The girdle is wavy and I know the value of a gem is a combination of color, tone, clarity and cut. My Question on this stone is, Is the loss of 1 carat to get a perfect cut worth it or is a 6.5ct tsavorite and a 5ct tsavorite in different price break points?

The Mandarin stone has a small window and the spessartite could be brighter.

 

[strmrdr]

I buy gemstones for enjoyment not for resale value.
My opinion is that if you would enjoy them more after the recut go for it.

 

[MJO]

>I buy gemstones for enjoyment not for resale value.
My opinion is that if you would enjoy them more after the recut go for it.<

I try and keep both in mind. I know that someday I or my children will sell the stones. I buy "EXTRA" when there are alot around like last year 1ct eye clean tsavorite was plentiful so I bought about 30 of them. The cutting is not great but they were $100 each. I look for bargins and then decide what to do with them later. I do the same in the stock market.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/16/2005 11:527 AM
Author: MJO
Hello Ana,

The tsavorite''s) girdle is wavy and I know the value of a gem is a combination of color, tone, clarity and cut.

My Question on this stone is, Is the loss of 1 carat to get a perfect cut worth it or is a 6.5ct tsavorite and a 5ct tsavorite in different price break points?

Assuming this is going to be butt ungly to the vast majority of on-lookers once set, I''d have the thing recut to the best possible outcome above 5 cts. If the "perfect cut" happens to require more waste, I don''t think that would be acceptable for me. What are the chances that your 5 carat tsavorite of top color and clarity will be judged against another 5 carater of "perfect cut" and discarded ? IMO, slim. These are not diamonds.

Well, all this considering this discussion does take into account other considerations than the "eye of the beholder". There isn''t much to say about that - it is what you like it to be, literally

 

[Michael_E]

MJO,
Mr. Homers comment about the recut on the tsavorite giving a minor aesthetic improvement would be the determining factor for me. The idea of perfection is just an idea and a nebulous one at that. If the stone is very nice as is, then I feel that recutting would not bring increased value. I personally like fine stones that are not "perfect" as it''s a sign that the original cutter was trying to preserve as much of the original rough as possible and still achieve a beautiful look. I have several "native cut" sapphires and a number of crystal specimens that I can''t bring myself to cut because they are very nice as is and cutting them would definitely ruin much of their appeal. Also, a wavy girdle really doesn''t affect anything, (as long as it''s thick enough and not too rough), and once it''s set you''d hardly notice it. I would leave the tsavorite alone, you can always let your heirs recut it. Of course by that time tsavorite may be stratospheric in value and recutting it would be like recutting a 50K per carat ruby.

 

[Sagebrush]

MJO,

Now that is interesting! So everything remained the same except the weight and the scintillation improved dramatically! I did purchase a few concave cut gems in Tucson from Homer and others and was quite impressed. The pink and yellow sapphires on my site were cut by Richard as well as a large periodot cut by John Dyer. Just went to Wink''s site and read up on the technique, nice exposition.

 

[valeria101]

Two cuters advising one customer not to have gems cut !

Where on Earth is this ?

 

[MJO]

Thank you all for your input.

Ana just to let you know this tsavorite is not to be judged, it''s for me.

Michael, the slight difference is if it were shaved only 1/2 carat. Right now when looking down on the stone from above like when set it looks great. Only a little out of oval shape so I guess I will leave it alone.

I think I will let him cut the spessartite trilliant but not the Mandarin. I would like to see how it turns out. This is because even though the value will drop because of weight lose I know he really would like to do it but is worried about my cost and return on material. I did buy it for a good price so let him play.

I sent Richard a few other stones that he is going to cut for me including some indicolite rough. Will post pictures when they come back.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/16/2005 8:34:2 PM
Author: MJO

Ana just to let you know this tsavorite is not to be judged, it''s for me.

Perhaps some previous post read differently than intended... I certainly didn''t mean otherwise than you say.