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Question regarding clarity

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boirefish

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2018
Messages
32
So the other day I happened upon a Cartier store and (granted I cannot afford their offerings), had a look at a few of their diamonds and noted a definitive difference in how one 1.15ct D IF diamond (for 70k aud) looked compared to the others available of lower clarity grades. It had the greatest fire but also seemed to be transparent at the same time, whilst every other diamond looked "whiter" in comparison. My question is whether this transparency is a positive trait inherent in higher clarities, whether it is actually a reflection of poor light return, or whether there is something else I have not taken into account. The reason for this question is if clarity in general makes a significant difference to overall fire or cleanness or if the transparent attribute is desirable then I may need to step up from purely finding an "eye clean" diamond and aim for higher clarity?
 
Don't forget that even an IF diamond may not actually be completely flawless - stones are only graded under 10x magnification, so it's entirely possible that inclusions are smaller than that within an IF stone.

I believe that Type IIa stones have a special sort of 'clearness', though, to do with the carbon structure being unsullied by other elements, so it could have been one of those stones (rare though they are).
 
boirefish said:
So the other day I happened upon a Cartier store and (granted I cannot afford their offerings), had a look at a few of their diamonds and noted a definitive difference in how one 1.15ct D IF diamond (for 70k aud) looked compared to the others available of lower clarity grades. It had the greatest fire but also seemed to be transparent at the same time, whilst every other diamond looked "whiter" in comparison. My question is whether this transparency is a positive trait inherent in higher clarities, whether it is actually a reflection of poor light return, or whether there is something else I have not taken into account. The reason for this question is if clarity in general makes a significant difference to overall fire or cleanness or if the transparent attribute is desirable then I may need to step up from purely finding an "eye clean" diamond and aim for higher clarity?
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We would need to know the specs of the diamonds you looked at to get some insight into why you may have been responding that way to the D IF. It could be related to cut quality, or clarity, or a combination of both.

Although most people tend to think of higher technical clarities as 'overkill' when an eye-clean Si gives you best bang for your buck, there is something to be said for diamonds of top purity. Si is a wide category with many types of inclusions and inclusion combinations possible. Some will tend to diminish transparency, and therefore result in light performance deficits, even when cutting is top notch. When you pair top cut quality with elite clarity, you can be certain you are getting the optimal light performance.
 
If I remember correctly, the other diamonds were VS2 - VVS2 and colors from E to G. I think the most notable thing was how distinctly different this particular diamond looked compared to the others which I would have thought, bar significant inclusions, should look fairly similar from a distance.
 
Clarity as such will not have an effect on perceived Fire, or any other aspect of light performance. That is due to Cut-quality.

In reality however, the higher the combination of color and clarity, the higher the risk of finding a stone cut to mediocre cut-quality. The reason is not technical, it is purely economical. With higher color and clarity, each 0.01 Ct. of weight gained, by slightly manipulating the cut-quality away from the most ideal gives you a far higher dollar-gain.

On top of that, the general consuming public interested in D-IF (for instance) sees cut-quality as a minor aspect. Thus, the likelihood of getting away with a more mediocre cut-quality increases with color and clarity in the highest ranges.

Live long,
 
boirefish said:
If I remember correctly, the other diamonds were VS2 - VVS2 and colors from E to G. I think the most notable thing was how distinctly different this particular diamond looked compared to the others which I would have thought, bar significant inclusions, should look fairly similar from a distance.
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As you may or may not have discovered yet, there is a major emphasis placed on cut quality here on this forum. The reason being, cut quality has the greatest impact on the light performance and visual appearance of diamonds. So it is quite likely that cut is variable that you are observing.
 
Ha! Paul and I posted about cut quality almost simultaneously. I agree with virtually everything he says.

One possible point of seperation would the that clarity can have effects on the perceived fire and crispness of the light performance. But in the VS and above clarity grades this is rarely a significant issue.
 
So essentially what myself and my partner were in awe of was a poorly cut diamond compared to some well cut diamonds that looked whiter face up because we played with it in different angles. Hahahaha I feel very silly now. One day I will go back to that store alone with this newfound knowledge to reassess, thanks all for the prompt replies
 
Could be cut quality, but then again, if it was so poorly cut that it was grossly leaking light then I would expect that it would also not be nearly as firey as its well-cut counterparts.

I would be more willing to believe that it was indeed due to the diamond's composition itself. As mentioned by @OoohShiny, type IIa diamonds do have a sort of translusence to them that does look quite different to other diamonds, even other D color diamonds that are type Ia. This is due to the complete lack of nitrogen impurities in the crystal lattice structure.

Google "Type IIa diamond" and look at the photos and videos. They really are quite beautiful.

But I believe that most diamonds that are Type IIa come with a separate certificate or print-out from GIA verifying this. If you do happen to go back to the store, I would ask the sales clerk about it and see if this is the case. Would be cool to know!
 
boirefish said:
So essentially what myself and my partner were in awe of was a poorly cut diamond compared to some well cut diamonds that looked whiter face up because we played with it in different angles. Hahahaha I feel very silly now. One day I will go back to that store alone with this newfound knowledge to reassess, thanks all for the prompt replies
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Next time you go looking at diamonds, note the GIA or AGS report numbers. When you come back to the forum you can share those numbers and community members can use the 'report check' function on the lab websites and get the details. You will get more specific feedback that way.

Good luck in your search.
 
It could have been cleaner also, I have noticed that more expensive pieces get treated much better in most show rooms.
Cleaned more often and just in general treated better.
 
I believe it's the combination of cut and clarity (minimal grade-setting inclusions affecting transparency), if not cleanliness.

Check out the below thread (btw, ignore the brand superiority discussion), and you'll probably recognize the similarity of the CBI stone (best cut proportions in that particular comparison) to what you've seen at Cartier.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nfinity-wf-aca-and-james-allen-gia-3x.235609/
 
boirefish said:
So essentially what myself and my partner were in awe of was a poorly cut diamond compared to some well cut diamonds that looked whiter face up because we played with it in different angles. Hahahaha I feel very silly now. One day I will go back to that store alone with this newfound knowledge to reassess, thanks all for the prompt replies
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It could also have been the opposite - you lucked out and saw a D IF that had actually been cut well whereas the others had been cut to meet carat weights and weren’t as nicely cut? You shouldn’t feel silly for seeing something you clearly did see but it is difficult to know for sure what the reason for it is without effectively knowing all the details of the stones you were comparing.
 
blueMA said:
I believe it's the combination of cut and clarity (minimal grade-setting inclusions affecting transparency), if not cleanliness.

Check out the below thread (btw, ignore the brand superiority discussion), and you'll probably recognize the similarity of the CBI stone (best cut proportions in that particular comparison) to what you've seen at Cartier.

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...nfinity-wf-aca-and-james-allen-gia-3x.235609/
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Spot on! the diamond at Cartier looked most similar to that CBI diamond as compared to the others that looked "whiter"

Does this infer that whiteflash ACA diamonds are not what I should be looking for? I've always assumed the whitest diamond is also the one that offers greatest scintillation and fire but could it be that by having a large amount of white light return a diamond ends up looking more creamy white instead of clear and sparkly?
 
I've also asked the gentleman who was assisting whether he could provide a certificate number and will keep everyone updated
 
It may be also a steep deep diamond which look particularly attractive with halogen lights feeding light through the pavilion.
 
I suspect the lighting.
Better cuts perform badly in overly spot lit stores and Cartier have typically the worst lighting I have come across.
As Paul noted, D Flawless are very often poorly proportioned and bad cuts appear glassier in spot lighting (and sunlight) than really well cut stones.
 
boirefish said:
Spot on! the diamond at Cartier looked most similar to that CBI diamond as compared to the others that looked "whiter"

Does this infer that whiteflash ACA diamonds are not what I should be looking for? I've always assumed the whitest diamond is also the one that offers greatest scintillation and fire but could it be that by having a large amount of white light return a diamond ends up looking more creamy white instead of clear and sparkly?
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No, that doesn't mean you should avoid ACA (nor other brands) at all. That thread compares stones with different cut proportions, so again avoid the brand comparison inferred by the example.

The stone you've seen is probably a very well cut (along with no transparency issue) diamond with ideal proportions that test well under reflector based system, and such diamonds can look look very dark or almost black under strong spotlighting with no light leakage. However, you'll see lots of fire and sparkles from it when you twirl it around as you've noticed. When you see such a diamond in other lighting, such as under grocery stores lighting (lots of overhead lights) or under florescent light, it generally looks the brightest due to highest light returns and most sparkly due to myriad virtual facets.
 
Garry H (Cut Nut) said:
I suspect the lighting.
Better cuts perform badly in overly spot lit stores and Cartier have typically the worst lighting I have come across.
As Paul noted, D Flawless are very often poorly proportioned and bad cuts appear glassier in spot lighting (and sunlight) than really well cut stones.
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essentially point light sources in well cut stones may result in one to 3 very bright spots which over expose your eye making the rest of the stone dark.
bad cuts and many fancy shapes with multiple virtual facets can return several or many fairly bright but not dazling rays to your eyes.
 
IMG_1840.jpg
Took this photo of my ring with flash light on. You can see the round H&A stone looks very dark, but the side pear diamonds look much more "whiter" in comparison.
 
blueMA said:
IMG_1840.jpg
Took this photo of my ring with flash light on. You can see the round H&A stone looks very dark, but the side pear diamonds look much more "whiter" in comparison.
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Excellent !!!
 
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