Red Sapphire... ???Question???

[conitta]

Does anyone out there know what a red sapphire is or have you seen them?I saw some at a gem show.They had the loose stones and set in rings.They are gorgeous.I odered one off of ebay and it is pretty.The ones I saw at the show were pretty high dollar.

I always thought that sapphires came in every color but red and the red were rubies.Now I am all confused! Does anyone have any input on these gem stones?

Thanks Connie

 

[colorchange]

"Red sapphires" are Be-Treated sapphires with red color that some half-scrupulous sellers don't want to name rubies... without telling what it is exactly.

 

[Gemoholic]

hmm I never heard of a red sapphire as a red sapphire is called a ruby isn''t it?

I would never buy any gems on ebay.Just read up on other experiances.

 

[innerkitten]

Thats what I was thinking ,red=ruby, right? Although I''ve seen some very rubyish looking sapphires on the naturalsapphirecompany.com web site.

Speaking of red and rubies and sapphires... have you ever noticed that in antique jewelry they call the pinkish stones rubies and not pink sapphires.

As far as Ebay goes I bought two nice red garnets there not to long ago. but I think there are lots of rip off artists obviously selling sapphires for $3.99 and that type of thing

 

[FireGoddess]

A red sapphire is a ruby.

Otherwise, sapphs come in any color.

 

[conitta]

I am still confused . . . . That is what I always said red is ruby, that is stuck in my head. At this gem show he had red sapphires and the are bueatiful. It looks like a SAPPHIRE...the sparkle.I called in and asked Steve on GSN.He knew of the red sapphire and said it that was a good question.Can''t remember what all he said but it did not satisfy my curiosity.I know ebay scares me a bit also at gem shows.Just don''t trust most out there.I have gotten a couple of nice stones. I have one seller that I have bought from and have been pleased.It was scarey the first time....

Connie

 

[FireGoddess]

http://www.gemmtn.com/sapphire.htm

3rd paragraph.

 

[conitta]

Whatever it is the color is to die for....

 

[conitta]

And this one....

 

[FireGoddess]

Could it be a spinel? Nice color.

 

[conitta]

No it isn''t a spinel. It looks like a sapphire and it has the brilliance of one.The man at the gem show said it was something different in the chemical makeup of the stone...Mother Nature.Love the color!

 

[Linda W]

Hi Connie,


It is a beautiful stone. Did you take it to your jeweler and ask him what he thinks it is??? Maybe he will know.


Linda

 

[widget]

hmmm...it''s very pretty...but I''m with Colorchange on this one. "...the chemical nature of the stone" sounds fishy to me. I''m betting it''s be treated...especially if it was particularly inexpensive...

BTW...I can''t remember if I asked this before, but is it relatively easy for a gemologist to detect be treatment? Is special equipment required?

widget

 

[conitta]

Where I live there is 1 gemologest and she knows where I get my jewelry...not from her & from the shopping networks.(they hate that ) I think she has a attitude also.The jeweker I go to now used to work for for years and then went on her own.

I have not taken any of my pieces to her to have appraised because I felt I would not get a fair deal. A jewelry store here has a GIA independent appraiser in store at times. I took my Tanzanite pieces a couple months ago.Did not think to take this stone.I will next time. Whatever it is it is a really pretty stone.

Connie

 

[innerkitten]

Please let us know. I''m also curious.

 

[gem girl]

Rubies and sapphires are both varieties of the corundum family. If its dominantly red its a ruby, it its reddish pink its a sapphire. Why not find an independant gemologist/appraiser for a pro''s oppinion?

 

[rubydick]

What is being sold as "red sapphire" is most likely a beryllium-diffused sapphire (mostly from Songea, Tanzania). Such stones are often sold without proper disclosure. The stones have a relatively shallow layer of artificial yellow color which often gives them the appearance of spinel (''brick red'' as opposed to ruby''s purplish red).

Many of these stones have been unloaded on an unsuspecting public on home shopping networks under fancy names like "ratnaraj" ruby, "sunset" ruby, etc. They are essentially artificially colored by forcing a coloring agent (beryllium) into the surface regions of the stone under high temperatures. See more about beryllium diffusion here:

The Skin Game

 

[conitta]

Richard....That is probably what it is. The picture of some sapphires on the link in your post looks close to the stone I have. It is such a pretty color.I have not seen anything like it before.I know that corundum comes in all colors but red is ruby....& then I see this at the gem show.All of the better stones and larger ones were set into rings and High $$$$. Wasn''t going to buy something I did not know anything about.Would research it first and I saw some on ebay.I got one and not for much money.At any rate it is such a pretty colr and vibrant also...Thanks

Connie

 

[FireGoddess]

Richard, that is so interesting. No wonder why I thought spinel after seeing the pictures. Fascinating. Thanks for the info!

 

[C Smith]

Put the stone in an immersion cell and see if the coloring is stronger at the facets. If so, that indicates diffusion. Check it with a dichroscope. Is it dichroic? If so, it isn''t spinel or garnet.

 

[innerkitten]

whats an immersion cell ?

 

[Colored Gemstone Nut]

Date: 6/14/2006 9:03:50 PM
Author: innerkitten
whats an immersion cell ?

Inner Kitten:

This is a method used to establish the refractive index of a gem. Immersing gem material in a liquid with approximately the same refractive index, will make the gem nearly invisible. Immersion requires a set of refractive index liquids and a high-powered microscope.The immersion method is sometimes used by simply immersing it in different liquids in an "immersion cell" or small dish. The coloring agent such as (beryllium) will be evident at the edges and will be darker at the surface regions of the facets. It will be evident because the actual refractive index of the gem being tested and the refractive index of the agent used such as (berylium) are different.

I hope this helps...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

What''s an ISG~RG?

 

[RockDoc]

Hi Richard

ISG - is the International School of Gemology. It is run by Robert James, an FGA/ GG. For those wanting a basic gemological educaition it is an inexpensive way to learn.

The site he has is www.yourgemologist.com

RG is the title he awards upon completion and exam. - Registered Gemologist.


For those who don''t have or can''t afford the GIA''s $7000.00- $13000 that GIA charges it is quite a bargain with students who participate from all over the globe.

Rockdoc

Date: 6/15/2006 12:56:22 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood
What''s an ISG~RG?

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/9/2006 3:37:30 PM
Author: Richard Hughes
What is being sold as ''red sapphire'' is most likely a beryllium-diffused sapphire (mostly from Songea, Tanzania). Such stones are often sold without proper disclosure. The stones have a relatively shallow layer of artificial yellow color which often gives them the appearance of spinel (''brick red'' as opposed to ruby''s purplish red).

Many of these stones have been unloaded on an unsuspecting public on home shopping networks under fancy names like ''ratnaraj'' ruby, ''sunset'' ruby, etc. They are essentially artificially colored by forcing a coloring agent (beryllium) into the surface regions of the stone under high temperatures. See more about beryllium diffusion here:

The Skin Game

Hi Richard

Good to see you here.

Was great to see you again in Orlando.


Rockdoc

 

[colorchange]

Date: 6/14/2006 8:46:31 PM
Author: C Smith
Put the stone in an immersion cell and see if the coloring is stronger at the facets. If so, that indicates diffusion.

Unfortunately if not it does not proove this treatment hasn''t been applied... it''s a good way to proove the treatment only.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 6/15/2006 1:59:30 AM
Author: RockDoc

RG is the title he awards upon completion and exam. - Registered Gemologist.

Registered Gemologist?

How would you compare Robert's curriculum to that of the GIA or GAGB gemologist programs?

It's nice to hear he is making affordable gemology available to interested parties, but do you feel comfortable with the designation of Gemologist awarded after completion of his $395 course?

 

[RockDoc]

Date: 6/15/2006 10:28:29 AM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 6/15/2006 1:59:30 AM
Author: RockDoc

RG is the title he awards upon completion and exam. - Registered Gemologist.

Registered Gemologist?

How would you compare Robert's curriculum to that of the GIA or GAGB gemologist programs?

It's nice to hear he is making affordable gemology available to interested parties, but do you feel comfortable with the designation of Gemologist awarded after completion of his $395 course?

RE: What do I think of the $ 395.00 course and an awarded designation?


I think fairly positively about his course. I know some of his students, after taking the RG Course have gone on to complete the FGA course. One fellow recently passed the FGA with distinction - which as you can imagine is pretty tough to do.

Robert is also getting his course approved in various states. If you read through the threads of the forum there, you'll see some of the students, many of whom are just enthusiasts, ask some pretty deep questions and those with trade experience are pretty advanced in their discussions.

I think he will be increasing the pricing as time goes on, but certainly not at the level that GIA charges. For those who do have an interest, it is an inexpensive way to learn the basics. In some areas it is entry level, certainly a plus for anyone wanting to learn well on a limited budget. Some areas of the curiculum is even more detailed than GIA is, due to his FGA experience.

My opinion is that he's brought a very affordable means of gemological education that a lot of the people here advising others should take. The diamond grading is a little basic as the cut grading material is not to the level of using or considering the advanced cut grading analysis, nor use of the advanced instrumentation that goes on here.

But for colored stones, it is very good, and in some areas has a little more education that GIA does. Quite obviously the RG does not have the "prestige" of the GIA's GG, but I believe Robert has plans to come up with a more advanced gemological course as demand for what he's done grows. The advanced courses will probably deal with the more advanced testing instrumentation and analysis, but at the moment I think it is a very good thing he's done given the understanding of the limitations of it. Robert doesn't have a huge overhead, and is able through online and dvd's make the education very affordable, so I generally think very positively about what he is accomplishing. Dollar for dollar it is a really good education value.

Robert and I used to get into some rather heated battles on another forum about valuation and appraising. He then went to work as an adjuster for a major insurance company and learned that a lot of what I had written that he formerly disagreed with was correct. He was "man" enough to admit it later and apologized about it, and since then we've had great respect for each other.

I think we can all benefit from education from wherever it comes from. I've learned things from various places, sometimes very valuable stuff from place you'd least expect it from.

Rockdoc

 

[C Smith]

Excellent reply RockDoc.

As I have never taken the GG course of study from the GIA , I cannot directly compare the two (too costly to justify on my salary along with the occasional income I take in from seminars although I did look into them first).

I took an interest in gemology while shopping for an engagement ring for my (now) wife. I stumbled across the ISG after seeing them referenced on a couple of forums online and after looking over their forum and course outline, I decided to give it a go; This after having read several books on the subject first.

I can honestly say that the material was well-presented and fairly comprehensive.I spent months buried in my monitor learning all I could. The exams in each of six fields of study are taken online under strict time constraints and if you haven't studied the course in question with due thoroughness, you'll not be passing. It's definitely not a "gimme" by any means.

After the six individual courses of study are successfully completed, you are qualified to take the Registered Gemologist exam. It covers material from all of the others and the way in which the questions are formulated really forces you to internalize the concepts over the course of your studies. The questions cannot be simply answered from a photographic memory in many cases, rather they require deep thought on a workmanlike, hands-on level that many will be taken back by. Instead of asking the question outright, some of them read like word problems that you must use your newly earned knowledge and a critical mind to reason through to the right answer. It's a real nail-biter!

At this point, I know alot of information(comparatively) and yet, I consider myself one of the most dangerous things in the world...A guy with much book-learning and relatively little field experience...but then, that will be the case no matter where your parchment comes from will it not? I'm having a great time and am looking forward to growing and learning on a daily basis. I hope to help others do the same. The ISG helped me do that for myself and I'm proud of my accomplishment in earning my RG. Now I'm going to go get my hands dirty!

Best regards to all ! I look forward to participating here on the forum.

 

[RockDoc]

C Smith

Where are you located? In the US?

Robert has so many students from other countries, I had to ask.

Rockdoc