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Reputable diamond sources and importance of super-ideal?

T

tailster

Rough_Rock
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
29
I am shifting my approach from trying to find a completed ring to sourcing a special loose stone first and then building the ring around it. My only real constraint is budget, which is around ~$25k for the stone, a colorless round brilliant cut. I was hoping to continue to pick some brains here if possible with a couple questions.

1 - What is the real world impact of a “super-ideal” cut? Would an untrained eye be able to distinguish it from one grade down, or is it like going from a VVS2 to 1 in that it takes knowing what to look for?

2 - Are there any reputable online sources for high quality stones? I have come across White Flash and their “A Cut Above” - are there any other similar shops or diamond lines that I can be sure are top quality?

Thanks again to everyone for your help! It’s been fun getting to learn so much about this.
 
tailster said:
What is the real world impact of a “super-ideal” cut? Would an untrained eye be able to distinguish it from one grade down, or is it like going from a VVS2 to 1 in that it takes knowing what to look for?
Click to expand...

One of the best ways to determine this for yourself is to visit a jeweler who deals in "super-ideal" cut diamonds. Ask him or her to put three to five diamonds on a slotted tray with some being top cuts and some not. Then you pick the diamond you like best with the jeweler having told you nothing about which diamond is which. (Or start with which diamond you like least and keep going until there is only one left.) It has been my experience most people will end up with the best cut diamond.

You should be aware that there are many "super-ideal" cut diamonds that are hanging on to the bottom of the grade and just squeaking out being in the top grade. Then there are those few that are lounging at the top of the grade. It has been my experience most people will end up with the best cut diamond.

To be fair, even the squeakers are better than most of the diamonds you will see in jewelry stores and when seen by themselves will be extraordinarily beautiful. It is only when seen with the top cut that your eye will go for the extra beauty the cutter drew out by doing his job properly.
 
Wink said:
One of the best ways to determine this for yourself is to visit a jeweler who deals in "super-ideal" cut diamonds. Ask him or her to put three to five diamonds on a slotted tray with some being top cuts and some not. Then you pick the diamond you like best with the jeweler having told you nothing about which diamond is which. (Or start with which diamond you like least and keep going until there is only one left.) It has been my experience most people will end up with the best cut diamond.

You should be aware that there are many "super-ideal" cut diamonds that are hanging on to the bottom of the grade and just squeaking out being in the top grade. Then there are those few that are lounging at the top of the grade. It has been my experience most people will end up with the best cut diamond.

To be fair, even the squeakers are better than most of the diamonds you will see in jewelry stores and when seen by themselves will be extraordinarily beautiful. It is only when seen with the top cut that your eye will go for the extra beauty the cutter drew out by doing his job properly.
Click to expand...

Your reply is greatly appreciated! Is the ASET image a good way to determine cut quality within the ideal range or does one have to be familiar with a bit more to make any determinations? Would the “super-ideal” stones from someone like White Flash tend toward one of this scale?
 
tailster said:
Your reply is greatly appreciated! Is the ASET image a good way to determine cut quality within the ideal range or does one have to be familiar with a bit more to make any determinations? Would the “super-ideal” stones from someone like White Flash tend toward one of this scale?
Click to expand...

What Wink means is that there is a scale of SIC within diamonds that meet SIC criteria...they'll ALL be jaw-droppers since they all meet SIC criteria.

Fair...Good...VG...EX...ID...SIC---SIC

An ASET is the preferred method to assess any diamond.

Some highly recommended sellers for SIC:
Continental Diamond
Whiteflash
Victor Canera
Brian Gavin
JannPaul
Distinctive Gem
Diamonds by Lauren
...there are more, and I'm sure that they'll be mentioned by others.
 
DejaWiz said:
What Wink means is that there is a scale of SIC within diamonds that meet SIC criteria...they'll ALL be jaw-droppers since they all meet SIC criteria.

Fair...Good...VG...EX...ID...SIC---SIC

An ASET is the preferred method to assess any diamond.

Some highly recommended sellers for SIC:
Continental Diamond
Whiteflash
Victor Canera
Brian Gavin
JannPaul
Distinctive Gem
Diamonds by Lauren
...there are more, and I'm sure that they'll be mentioned by others.
Click to expand...
Makes sense, thanks!

This is the current front runner for me. Wondering if anyone could give me an opinion:

Diamond | 1.591 ct F VS1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4553628

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 1.591 carat F color VS1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4553628
www.whiteflash.com
 
Hello there!

I think it’s a great idea to source a loose stone and build a ring around it.

For me, the answer to your first question is a “yes”. A super ideal cut will stand out because its proportions will create a beautiful balance of fire, brilliance, etc. in all kinds of lighting. I can tell you first hand that getting a super ideal is worth it. My diamond from long ago (before I ever discovered PriceScope) is a steep deep (sad face). It will flash and have bits of pin fire in specific kinds of artificial lighting, but outside in the sun for example, it looks like a flat round grey circle with a dead center that produces no flashes of anything. It’s disappointing to look at so we made an anniversary ring with better stones later on. I’ve always been able to tell when out in real life if someone has a better performing diamond on their finger. So I would say definitely try and shoot for that super ideal cut. I think you can get a decent size for about $25k.

First place that comes to mind is White Flash for their super ideal stones. Second place that comes to mind (and it’s because I recently had a ring done by him) is Victor Canera. He has some amazing stones too.

Just my two cents!


tailster said:
I am shifting my approach from trying to find a completed ring to sourcing a special loose stone first and then building the ring around it. My only real constraint is budget, which is around ~$25k for the stone, a colorless round brilliant cut. I was hoping to continue to pick some brains here if possible with a couple questions.

1 - What is the real world impact of a “super-ideal” cut? Would an untrained eye be able to distinguish it from one grade down, or is it like going from a VVS2 to 1 in that it takes knowing what to look for?

2 - Are there any reputable online sources for high quality stones? I have come across White Flash and their “A Cut Above” - are there any other similar shops or diamond lines that I can be sure are top quality?

Thanks again to everyone for your help! It’s been fun getting to learn so much about this.
Click to expand...
 
You might find this video on Super Ideals helpful...


The F/VS diamond you found is pretty. This E/VS is just a smidge more and looks a little brighter to my eye. You can spec a few stones and ask WF to do a side by side pic for you.

Diamond | 1.576 ct E VS1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4558484

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 1.576 carat E color VS1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4558484
www.whiteflash.com
 
Just dropping in with another suggestion and sorry if it’s redundant and you’ve done this already - since you’ve locked in a budget, it might be a good idea to spend some time seeing different diamonds in person to get an idea of the min colour and clarity level you’re comfortable with as well. Going a colour grade down to G, for example, opens up your options to go slightly larger within the same budget. Or you might find that you are super colour sensitive (being able to see colour and being okay with colour are two different things - you may see tint but be okay with it too! But if you don’t want to see colour and you have good hue perception, that’s what I call colour sensitive) and so only a DEF will do, at the expense of a little size. Totally your choice to make.

Finally, while you most probably should make sure to find stones that at the least within the “recommended proportions” that are suggested on PS - I will link the thread if you haven’t seen it already, you may find that the added level of optical symmetry and precision that a super ideal carries is lost on you. Frankly, it’s lost on me (admittedly unpopular opinion here)! As Wink suggested, the best way is if you can actually see a super ideal compared to an HCA approved Triple Ex in person. You might not be able to see the difference, or you might see it but not care.
 
lulu_ma said:
You might find this video on Super Ideals helpful...


The F/VS diamond you found is pretty. This E/VS is just a smidge more and looks a little brighter to my eye. You can spec a few stones and ask WF to do a side by side pic for you.

Diamond | 1.576 ct E VS1 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round Cut Loose Diamond AGS Certified | 4558484

This Whiteflash A CUT ABOVE® super ideal cut hearts and arrows 1.576 carat E color VS1 clarity loose diamond is graded by the American Gem Society (AGS) Laboratories. | 4558484
www.whiteflash.com
Click to expand...
This is a great idea. I just contacted WF and asked them to compile a few comparable stones into a side-by-side image for me.
AllAboardTheBlingTrain said:
Just dropping in with another suggestion and sorry if it’s redundant and you’ve done this already - since you’ve locked in a budget, it might be a good idea to spend some time seeing different diamonds in person to get an idea of the min colour and clarity level you’re comfortable with as well. Going a colour grade down to G, for example, opens up your options to go slightly larger within the same budget. Or you might find that you are super colour sensitive (being able to see colour and being okay with colour are two different things - you may see tint but be okay with it too! But if you don’t want to see colour and you have good hue perception, that’s what I call colour sensitive) and so only a DEF will do, at the expense of a little size. Totally your choice to make.

Finally, while you most probably should make sure to find stones that at the least within the “recommended proportions” that are suggested on PS - I will link the thread if you haven’t seen it already, you may find that the added level of optical symmetry and precision that a super ideal carries is lost on you. Frankly, it’s lost on me (admittedly unpopular opinion here)! As Wink suggested, the best way is if you can actually see a super ideal compared to an HCA approved Triple Ex in person. You might not be able to see the difference, or you might see it but not care.
Click to expand...
It's been surprisingly hard to find jewelers around me that have a super-ideal stones in person. Granted a significant portion of that is just my inexperience, but it's been additionally difficult to know who to even trust about this. This forum has been a great resource so far in helping to determine that however.
 
Side by side from WF:

1C9A8370-D75B-4AE1-8FFB-217FB08DBB7E.jpeg59D2B9D6-34B4-4B9D-B609-635ACDAD66C0.jpeg

Any thoughts? Leaning towards the F at the moment, but they all seem great to me. I also spoke to another jeweler who promised me there was no such thing as “super-ideal” and it was just a scam to charge a premium.
 
tailster said:
Side by side from WF:

1C9A8370-D75B-4AE1-8FFB-217FB08DBB7E.jpeg59D2B9D6-34B4-4B9D-B609-635ACDAD66C0.jpeg

Any thoughts? Leaning towards the F at the moment, but they all seem great to me. I also spoke to another jeweler who promised me there was no such thing as “super-ideal” and it was just a scam to charge a premium.
Click to expand...

F would be great bang for the buck to get colorless.

Of course another jeweler that places the importance of their cash register above the importance of true diamond beauty would say that.

Here's the thing about these SIC diamonds:

* They're custom cut by contracted cutters to very strict specifications...and that takes a LOT of extra labor and lost rough to achieve.

* They have proven optical precision via advanced images, including ASET and H&A.

* They are human-vetted to ensure that the cut quality and optical performance is at the top of what is possible to attain...you have been linked a comparison video earlier that shows the difference, plain as day.

* They are stored in-house and ready to ship or give the prospective buyer any info that they want prior to purchasing...any businessperson will tell you that on-hand inventory carries much higher overhead (insurance, inventory management, security, etc) than virtual or drop-ship inventory.

* You get 100% retained value with their generous no-frills upgrade programs.

* They meet AGS Triple Zero criteria, which is far more strict than the broad GIA Triple Excellent...there is actual peer-reviewed science behind the optics of diamonds.

* GIA's "Excellent" cut grade is NOT based on this science...it is based on "what looks good" to a panel of consumers. Most consumers have no proper basis of comparison, as they have never seen the extreme optical performance of a SIC, making GIA's criteria rather flawed. Which is sad, because this science was initially figured out by Tolkowsky a little over 100 years ago, so it's not a new epiphany.
 
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Here are a few more great videos from JP:



 
tailster said:
Side by side from WF:

1C9A8370-D75B-4AE1-8FFB-217FB08DBB7E.jpeg59D2B9D6-34B4-4B9D-B609-635ACDAD66C0.jpeg

Any thoughts? Leaning towards the F at the moment, but they all seem great to me. I also spoke to another jeweler who promised me there was no such thing as “super-ideal” and it was just a scam to charge a premium.
Click to expand...

The F is a terrific choice. I like that it's also the biggest.
 
Something else to consider…Whiteflash has a great upgrade policy. I just got earrings from them and they are amazing. Highly recommend. And I have a ring from wink and it’s also amazing. Highly recommend.
 
As always, appreciate the help everyone! Out of curiosity, how much of a premium is generally placed in pricing on the ACA stones? Aka how much less would the same stone that wasn't an ACA (just ideal instead of super-ideal) go for on average? And, along those same lines, is the cut of the diamond likely to be reflected in the value of the diamond, either resale or appraisal?
 
As is often the case, I believe you are asking the question backwards.

I believe the correct question is, “How much of a discount do I get for buying a diamond that is not cut as well as a top cut diamond?”
 
Wink said:
As is often the case, I believe you are asking the question backwards.

I believe the correct question is, “How much of a discount do I get for buying a diamond that is not cut as well as a top cut diamond?”
Click to expand...
Fair point. Best I can tell, it’s about a 10% discount for ideal over super-ideal.
 
In which case, the question now is, do you wish the discounted price, or would you rather pay a little more for knowing you got the very best?
 
I love the "Super Ideal"
In the look and the science.
But- remember that sellers are motivated to sell what they love...and what they are designed to sell.
All the comparisons ( made by super ideal sellers) are geared toward showing why a super ideal is better.
I have found that there are many aspects that draw people to diamonds.
If we ran a comparison dollar to dollar it might produce different results.
If we use 10% as the difference in price, use the 10% to find a larger, non super ideal diamond, then make a comparison.
Some people will choose the larger stone.
Neither is "wrong"
 
Wink said:
In which case, the question now is, do you wish the discounted price, or would you rather pay a little more for knowing you got the very best?
Click to expand...
I should have clarified, my purpose in asking wasn't because I was considering a non-super-ideal stone, but rather just out of curiosity in better understanding my purchase and the market.
 
I think I can answer question 1 for you as a non-diamond enthusiast who got a Whiteflash ACA diamond in 2020 for my engagement ring.

Sometimes I think that I could have purchased something better locally for the best bang for the buck, but then I was on a limited time frame and didn't have time. I say that because I suppose I could done a lot of leg work to find a diamond that has the ideal angles and HCA numbers, but it was difficult to find that locally and online as most diamonds I saw were steep deep or cut poorly.

Whiteflash's service for my custom ring was amazing, even though my budget was smaller than most people's budget in this forum and though I was an international customer. It was surprisingly painless.

It catches my eye every time I see it - I literally signed onto this forum and ended up in this thread after a long period of inactivity because the fire in my ACA caught my eye while I was getting my haircut and reminded me of Pricescope. A lot of people are surprised by the carat size (0.9 ct) because it faces up so bright and beautiful. I've had a lot of compliments on it, and I can visibly see a difference in the sparkle compared to others', even if my carat size is technically smaller.

I love looking at it and knowing that I got, without question, one of the best cut stones I can find for the size, colour, and clarity.

The only thing I would personally change is going down a colour grade and going from VS2 to SI1 for a larger carat size, because I am not colour sensitive nor can I see any clarity issues. But perhaps when I upgrade in a few years.... (One of the perks of White Flash is being able to upgrade!).
 
Garry, I am a geezer and can no longer do so, but I could back in 2002 when I started dealing in them, and when more than 90% of my clients choose them in blind taste tests, I am convinced this is a trend, not a coincidence. You may have diamonds that are cut extraordinarily well, while still not being H&A and have a lower percentage choosing the top cut diamond, but the average Gia XXX is not even in the game.

You are one of the few retailers I would trust to be able to source the diamonds you are referring to, and I suspect they will not be much lower in cost than the finest super ideal cut diamonds.

I will always trust when a client chooses a diamond from a group without knowing which is which that he/she chose the one that appealed most to him/her.
 
Of course there are wide variations within Excellent and 'Ideal' lab grades for polish and symmetry Wink.
My selection criteria is based on my standards not labs.
It is what I called Fine near H&A's that is indistinguisable, and as you know I have offered a $1k bet to pick the super ideals from 10 stones that I choose.
no one has taken it up in more than 10 years
 
Wink said:
Fortunately for those of us who sell the best cuts, most jewelers cannot pick them like you do.
Click to expand...

They can and probably do for family and loved ones Wink.
It's just a really hard business model for the avg trinket flogger.
For example we have been dealing with an honest Indian melee supplier having trained him to use an ideal-scope for our selection over the past five years. Orders about 2-3 times a year.
He has attempted to train his staff in our criteria and we started with 80% rejection and today I am receiving the first invoice (roughly 30 carats or about 1,000 stones) with no rejections at all (actually there were an average of 1% across about 10 mm sizes which we put into our repair stones as return shipping costs more than the total value).
 
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