Rhodes statue POLL - the founder of De Beers

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

A controversial topic.
"The Rhodes Must Fall campaign, which has campaigned against the statue, accuses Oriel of "institutional racism". In June 150 lecturers in Oxford announced a boycott of the college.
Critics accuse the founder of the De Beers diamond empire of being a racist, a white supremacist and the father of apartheid.

Rhodes gave his name to the territory that was once Rhodesia and endowed the Rhodes scholarships that have been paying for 8,000 students (including former US president Bill Clinton) to attend Oxford University."

De Beers Founder was Colonialist a<b></b>nd Exploiter, says Oxford University

 

[AprilBaby]

Controversial. Do you get rid of the Rhodes scholarships? Do you ban his name from history? Does Rhodesia change its name? I offer no opinion since it has nothing to do with me and I can’t understand how people with slavery backgrounds feel.

 

[denverappraiser]

Rhodesia DID change it's name. It's now Zimbabwe.

It's a tricky problem. Around here (Colorado) we have dozens of mountains and even cities that are named after various 19th-century Indian killers. Should they change them? Some have. More will surely follow. It costs to do this, and in some cases it costs quite a bit. It's kind of standard for colleges to name buildings after the people who paid for them. That's led to some pretty embarrassing moments. Like it or not, Rhodes is an important part of the legacy of that university, and removing the statue won't change that.

 

[diagem]

I suppose the farther back we dig our human history..., the more barbaric it gets..

What would we do without history?

 

[lissyflo]

I suppose the farther back we dig our human history..., the more barbaric it gets..

What would we do without history?

Succinctly but eloquently said.

My vote isn’t an option in the poll. I’d opt to leave the statue as is but add a plaque to inform about the history. Well, a plaque has already been added, but it’s a little primary school style. I’d like to see more explained about both the good and ill he did.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Does Rhodesia change its name?

They did a few decades ago, kicked out or 'acquired' farms owned and run by whites.
But sadly the nation has been a basket case ever since

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I suppose the farther back we dig our human history..., the more barbaric it gets..

What would we do without history?

I read once that about 1/3rd of the people in the Asian land mass (biggest on earth) have bits of Genghis Khan's genes.
I doubt all those ladies hoped into bed willingly!

 

[diagem]

They did a few decades ago, kicked out or 'acquired' farms owned and run by whites.
But sadly the nation has been a basket case ever since

...and in the mean time Zimbabwean diamonds are considered a red flag...

All conscious movements are warning against such diamond, while earning nice salary's for themselves putting Zimbabwe diamonds down..., and a handful of Companies making a killer marketing these diamonds for years while the poor Zimbabweans cant up their quality of life...

Did I say good conscience?

 

[caolsen]

I read once that about 1/3rd of the people in the Asian land mass (biggest on earth) have bits of Genghis Khan's genes.
I doubt all those ladies hoped into bed willingly!

Gary, you’re better than making a joke about rape as a tool of war….

 

[DejaWiz]

Gary, you’re better than making a joke about rape as a tool of war….

I'm fairly certain that there was no joke made. Garry made an inferential statement with the purpose of raising awareness to those that do not know about that horrid bit of human history...that aspect isn't exactly taught in schools around the world.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Gary, you’re better than making a joke about rape as a tool of war….

Thanks DW,
I was backing up the statement that DG made -

I suppose the farther back we dig our human history..., the more barbaric it gets..
What would we do without history?
that our history is barbaric.
I also believe that as many people on earth are being raped, robbed, forced into slavery and forecably conscripted into evil acts of war than at any time in history. The fact that there are more people today makes this likely to be true.
Uihgars in Northen China, rebels in Africa to mention some hot spots.

 

[caolsen]

I'm fairly certain that there was no joke made. Garry made an inferential statement with the purpose of raising awareness to those that do not know about that horrid bit of human history...that aspect isn't exactly taught in schools around the world.

The fact the rape has been used as a tool of war for centuries was and is taught. The fact that The Great Khan‘s Y chromosomal DNA is in .05 of the world’s population, with a congregation in the Mongol heartlands is a well known fact.

 

[DejaWiz]

The fact the rape has been used as a tool of war for centuries was and is taught. The fact that The Great Khan‘s Y chromosomal DNA is in .05 of the world’s population, with a congregation in the Mongol heartlands is a well known fact.

No, it isn't. I, and everyone I know, was never taught that in school....not elementary, middle, or high school. College, yes, but that depends on the college and the chosen curriculum. Had to take a history/government course as part of my academics for EE, so I did learn about then.

 

[DejaWiz]

Thanks DW,
I was backing up the statement that DG made -

I suppose the farther back we dig our human history..., the more barbaric it gets..
What would we do without history?
that our history is barbaric.
I also believe that as many people on earth are being raped, robbed, forced into slavery and forecably conscripted into evil acts of war than at any time in history. The fact that there are more people today makes this likely to be true.
Uihgars in Northen China, rebels in Africa to mention some hot spots.

None of which is even remotely being adequately covered by the mainstream media, let alone taught in schools...which I find rather disappointing.

 

[caolsen]

No, it isn't. I, and everyone I know, was never taught that in school....not elementary, middle, or high school. College, yes, but that depends on the college and the chosen curriculum. Had to take a history/government course as part of my academics for EE, so I did learn about then.

I don’t know about you but I was absolutely taught about systemic rape as a tool
of war in the 1990’s in high school when it was happening in front of our eyes to Bosnian women. The Rape of Nanking? That’s taught widely in high school world history.

 

[FL_runner]

I'm fairly certain that there was no joke made. Garry made an inferential statement with the purpose of raising awareness to those that do not know about that horrid bit of human history...that aspect isn't exactly taught in schools around the world.

I agree I took at as serious. I’ve heard the statement many times before including when I was working in Mongolia. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2003/mar/02/science.research

 

[FL_runner]

I would vote to remove the statue from a public place and move it to a museum where the context can be discussed in more depth.

In the U.S. South removal of confederate statues has been ongoing. Different of course because it relates to the civil war, and many of the statues were placed at a time in our history where systemic racism was being reinforced and violence taken against black Americans and other minorities. I grew up rolling my eyes at the statues and carrying on… because I am a white person who’s family immigrated to the US around 1900 so I do t have that personal historical connection AND I don’t have to experience daily racism like many others still do in our country.

I learned as an adult that these statues serve as painful daily reminders of the past for some people who are still struggling with the legacy of this history creating inequality in our society. And they serve as a rallying point for the small section of people who are openly racist. A white supremicist killed someone at a rally in my college town a few years ago and it was really heartbreaking because that could have been me or one of my friends- we often participated in social justice efforts and if I had still been a student there I’m sure I would have been at the counter rally protesting the white supremicist rally https://eji.org/news/charlottesville-removes-confederate-statues/

So I think these kind of statues have important historical context and sometimes artistic value…but they don’t necessarily belong in public places meant to be spaces of honor and community if a portion of the community expresses that it is painful for them to encounter them everyday. So there is likely a place where at least some of them should be kept so we don’t neglect to learn these important lessons, but leaving them where they are seems like we accept them and endorse having them- like it’s not important enough to the people in power to listen to those who are hurt by seeing them.

 

[DejaWiz]

I don’t know about you but I was absolutely taught about systemic rape as a tool
of war in the 1990’s in high school when it was happening in front of our eyes to Bosnian women. The Rape of Nanking? That’s taught widely in high school world history.

Good...I'm glad to hear that, because it is something that absolutely should be uniformly taught at that level.

 

[elle_chris]

No, it isn't. I, and everyone I know, was never taught that in school....not elementary, middle, or high school. College, yes, but that depends on the college and the chosen curriculum. Had to take a history/government course as part of my academics for EE, so I did learn about then.

I think that depends on the county, or even the continent.

My mother is of Russian descent. All you have to do is look at some members of her family to see the Mongol genes even though most are blonde/blue eyed.
Everyone I know from that part of the world (Eastern and Central Europe) all know the history.

In the US though... well.. we don't seem to be big on history. At least not until you get to college.

 

[elle_chris]

As far as Rhodes, "The controversial statue of Cecil Rhodes remains in place at Oxford University, but a plaque now explains that he "obtained his fortune through the exploitation of minerals, lands and people of southern Africa."

I think that's even better than taking it down. Now people will know what he did and stood for.

I also think the scholarship should only be given to students who are POC.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

As far as Rhodes, "The controversial statue of Cecil Rhodes remains in place at Oxford University, but a plaque now explains that he "obtained his fortune through the exploitation of minerals, lands and people of southern Africa."

I think that's even better than taking it down. Now people will know what he did and stood for.

I also think the scholarship should only be given to students who are POC.

I had to google POC and do a big search - I guess being an Australian means we don't recognise other countries stuff?
For those who think I am evil, my paternal family bought a farm 150 years ago from a family who abused and did horrible things to aboriginals. We had good relations and growing up played with aboriginal kids, had a nice family as next door neighbors. My maternal grandfather was a sprinter and could never beat the barefoot aboriginal kids. He predicted they would go on to sporting greatness (as they have).
My dad learned indigenous bushcraft from kids as he grew up.

 

[Wink]

Garry, I did a search here, as I had no idea either. I think it means Person of Color.

Wink

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Garry, I did a search here, as I had no idea either. I think it means Person of Color.

Wink

Maybe it is our age mate????

 

[mommylawyer]

I had to google POC and do a big search - I guess being an Australian means we don't recognise other countries stuff?
For those who think I am evil, my paternal family bought a farm 150 years ago from a family who abused and did horrible things to aboriginals. We had good relations and growing up played with aboriginal kids, had a nice family as next door neighbors. My maternal grandfather was a sprinter and could never beat the barefoot aboriginal kids. He predicted they would go on to sporting greatness (as they have).
My dad learned indigenous bushcraft from kids as he grew up.

I had to look it up, too. And guess what, that's me! Haha. We don't use that term here in Central America because we're all POC.

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

As far as Rhodes, "The controversial statue of Cecil Rhodes remains in place at Oxford University, but a plaque now explains that he "obtained his fortune through the exploitation of minerals, lands and people of southern Africa."

I think that's even better than taking it down. Now people will know what he did and stood for.

I also think the scholarship should only be given to students who are POC.

sorry what does POC stand for ?

the Rhodes scholarship is open to qualifying peeps from all over the world (i think one's country has to have been part of the British Empire at some stage ?)

 

[Daisys and Diamonds]

Garry, I did a search here, as I had no idea either. I think it means Person of Color.

Wink

thanks Wink
i had no idea either

 

[elle_chris]

I had to google POC and do a big search - I guess being an Australian means we don't recognise other countries stuff?
For those who think I am evil, my paternal family bought a farm 150 years ago from a family who abused and did horrible things to aboriginals. We had good relations and growing up played with aboriginal kids, had a nice family as next door neighbors. My maternal grandfather was a sprinter and could never beat the barefoot aboriginal kids. He predicted they would go on to sporting greatness (as they have).
My dad learned indigenous bushcraft from kids as he grew up.

I know the acronym is used in various parts of the world, though I can't specifically name the countries where you'll hear it used.
I also know it can offend some people, but that wasn't my intent. I just don't know a better term to use for non-white.

 

[Wink]

Maybe it is our age mate????

I graduated high school in 1965 and trust me, racism was rampant back then. I spoke up in a class one day and predicted that in fifty years race would not matter and the country would be far better off. I also predicted that women would be recognized as equal to men by then.

Hard to believe, but I took three times the abuse for my comment about women than about race.

I just wish I had not been so wrong about both predictions, although I do believe we are making progress. Far too slowly on both predictions, but progress...

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I also predicted that women would be recognized as equal to men by then.

Women out perform men in most of todays careers where education is a requirement. With one proviso:
They must have studied the right stuff.

 

[John Pollard]

I had to google POC and do a big search - I guess being an Australian means we don't recognise other countries stuff?

Not so fast, mate. You’re the one who broke the news about the “mined” vs natural conundrum here. And you don’t grock POC?

This is an insight reversal. Where’s @Rockdiamond - it’s time to pull the Ozzie’s tail.

(Admittedly, I learned POC from POC - in a circle of close textgroup friends)