Rwanda (and Darfur)

[AGBF]

Steve and fire&ice want to discuss Rwanda. In the face of accusations that I fear discussing history, I am (bravely) daring to start an entire THREAD on Rwanda. Oh...and Darfur.

Here is a link to an Op-ed piece in "The New York Times" which supports intervention in Darfur now.

Darfur

Go to it, everyone.

Deborah

 

[widget]

Thanks for the link, Deb

I''m just checking in to get on the "mailing list"...I''m shamefully ignorant of goings-on in Darfur, Rwanda, etc... maybe this thread will help "open my eyes"...

I''m looking forward to hearing bushophiles'' defense of our fearless leader..

widget

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/7/2005 10:50:30 AM
Author:AGBF
Here is a link to an Op-ed piece in 'The New York Times' which supports intervention in Darfur now.

Darfur

No one wants to discuss it now? Here is the beginning of Nicholas D. Kristof's Op-ed piece on Darfur. It refers to Rwanda...and Nazi Germany.

"Last fall President Bush declared the slaughter here in Darfur to be genocide, and then looked away. One reason for his paralysis is apparently the fear that Darfur may be another black hole of murder and mutilation, a hopeless quagmire to suck in well-meaning Americans - another Somalia or Iraq.

It's not.

We're again making the same mistake we've made in past genocides: as in the slaughter of Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Rwandans and Bosnians, we see no perfect solutions, so we end up doing very little. Because we could not change Nazi policies, we did not bother to bomb rail lines leading to death camps; today, because we have little leverage over Sudan, we do not impose a no-fly zone to stop the strafing of civilians or even bother to speak out forcefully.

Yet this town of Labado underscores that Darfur is not hopeless, that even the very modest actions that the international community has taken so far have saved vast numbers of lives."

(The link to the article is above if you wish to continue.)

Deborah

 

[strmrdr]

Its thier problem not mine.
Why should I pay higher taxes to support them?
The money is needed at home and in my pocketbook.
But then again the gov would just steal it from me anyway and give it to some scumbag welfare trash so hey why not.

Im tired of the US having to bail everyone out then get hated for it.
We should finish up in Iraq and pull our troops out all over the world and tell them to go ask france for help.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/7/2005 12:18:15 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 6/7/2005 10:50:30 AM

Author:AGBF

Here is a link to an Op-ed piece in 'The New York Times' which supports intervention in Darfur now.


Darfur

No one wants to discuss it now? Here is the beginning of Nicholas D. Kristof's Op-ed piece on Darfur. It refers to Rwanda...and Nazi Germany.


'Last fall President Bush declared the slaughter here in Darfur to be genocide, and then looked away. One reason for his paralysis is apparently the fear that Darfur may be another black hole of murder and mutilation, a hopeless quagmire to suck in well-meaning Americans - another Somalia or Iraq.


It's not.


We're again making the same mistake we've made in past genocides: as in the slaughter of Armenians, Jews, Cambodians, Rwandans and Bosnians, we see no perfect solutions, so we end up doing very little. Because we could not change Nazi policies, we did not bother to bomb rail lines leading to death camps; today, because we have little leverage over Sudan, we do not impose a no-fly zone to stop the strafing of civilians or even bother to speak out forcefully.


Yet this town of Labado underscores that Darfur is not hopeless, that even the very modest actions that the international community has taken so far have saved vast numbers of lives.'


(The link to the article is above if you wish to continue.)


Deborah

If you feel my money should be sent there why not put your money in first.
Sell everything and hop on a plane and go help them.
Naw cant do that.... just use someone elses money just not yours.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/7/2005 12:29:58 PM
Author: strmrdr
Its thier problem not mine.

Why should I pay higher taxes to support them?

The money is needed at home and in my pocketbook.

But then again the gov would just steal it from me anyway and give it to some scumbag welfare trash so hey why not.

In other words, you do not feel, as Steve does, that in Darfur "it is a simple problem of mathematics"*, that the ideal is to save as many people as possible. Gotcha.


*Steve's actual words were "Why is this simple math problem so challenging to you??"

Deborah

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/7/2005 12:31:39 PM
Author: strmrdr

If you feel my money should be sent there why not put your money in first.

Sell everything and hop on a plane and go help them.

Naw cant do that.... just use someone elses money just not yours.

Hey, Storm, I just posted this thread because Steve and fire&ice wanted it so badly. They want to save as many Iraqis as possible. And *YOU* wanted to pay for the war in Iraq; I didn't. My hand isn't in your pocket.

[I think the man is taking this personal .]

Deborah

 

[strmrdr]

sorry AGBF
*sigh* you just crossed the crosshairs at a bad time.
I shouldnt have posted that.
Sorry.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/7/2005 12:52:30 PM
Author: strmrdr
sorry AGBF

*sigh* you just crossed the crosshairs at a bad time.

I shouldnt have posted that.

Sorry.

Don''t worry about it, Big Guy .

Deb

 

[MINE!!]

Hmmm.. I am defintely going to post on this one.. but need a little more research... see you soon...

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 6/7/2005 10:50:30 AM
Author:AGBF

Steve and fire&ice want to discuss Rwanda. In the face of accusations that I fear discussing history, I am (bravely) daring to start an entire THREAD on Rwanda. Oh...and Darfur.

Here is a link to an Op-ed piece in ''The New York Times'' which supports intervention in Darfur now.

Darfur

Go to it, everyone.

Deborah

Just for the record, I did not specifically want to discuss Rwanda. I made a point that history is always significant in light of any discussion. Nothing happens in a vaccum.

 

[MINE!!]

OK..

I in NNNOOOO way condone the genocide in Rwanda! It makes my stomach turn and reminds me to kiss my children at night. BUt a few things that we should consider. Why is it that the UNites States is the ''bad guy'' here? If we get involved we are BBBAAADDDD.. if we don''t intercede... we are BBBBAAAADDDD.. People cannot have it both way!! YOU JUST CANNOT! Either people want us to help or they don''t want us to help. But if they do... then shut the h$ll up and let us do it.

As for this article... We are looking @ Nicholas Kristof.. a opinion columnist... for the NY TIMES no less...of course he is going to find fault in anything the US does.. he has a hard time remember what country he is in.

It is fine and dandy to read opinion for the opinion that you support, but it is just like me saying that you should read Ann Coulter.. come on... opinions are just opinions.

I think something should be done here. But your writer would be one of the first to say that the Iraqi children are suffering from our intrusion and involvement and is also the first to say that the children in Drafur are suffering for our lack of involvement. FOR Pete''s sake people!! Make up your mind!!!

 

[Blue824]

Date: 6/7/2005 2:40:40 PM
Author: MINE!!
OK..

I in NNNOOOO way condone the genocide in Rwanda! It makes my stomach turn and reminds me to kiss my children at night. BUt a few things that we should consider. Why is it that the UNites States is the ''bad guy'' here? If we get involved we are BBBAAADDDD.. if we don''t intercede... we are BBBBAAAADDDD.. People cannot have it both way!! YOU JUST CANNOT! Either people want us to help or they don''t want us to help. But if they do... then shut the h$ll up and let us do it.

As for this article... We are looking @ Nicholas Kristof.. a opinion columnist... for the NY TIMES no less...of course he is going to find fault in anything the US does.. he has a hard time remember what country he is in.

It is fine and dandy to read opinion for the opinion that you support, but it is just like me saying that you should read Ann Coulter.. come on... opinions are just opinions.

I think something should be done here. But your writer would be one of the first to say that the Iraqi children are suffering from our intrusion and involvement and is also the first to say that the children in Drafur are suffering for our lack of involvement. FOR Pete''s sake people!! Make up your mind!!!

exactly...damned if you do, damned if you don''t.

i dont agree with choices that have been made, but i sure don''t envy the people making the decisions. i have my theories as to why one decision is made over another, but we can never know for sure. one side is always going to disagree with the other. and there will always be something we should be doing.
Hehe, as for Ann Coulter...don''t get me started

But you''re right, an opinion is just that, an opinion. You can find a published person/article or a ''study'' to pretty much back up anything.

In the meantime, the Red Cross is doing quite a bit of work in both Rwanda and Darfur. I actually read that Darfur is their largest project right now. You can find out more or make donations or even volunteer through: http://www.ifrc.org/

 

[AGBF]

Date: 6/7/2005 2:40:40 PM
Author: MINE!!
As for this article... We are looking @ Nicholas Kristof.. a opinion columnist... for the NY TIMES no less...

I agree that neither he nor "The New York Times" is very liberal, but there are so *FEW* liberal papers around nowadays. You might want to try "The Nation" for a more balanced, albeit non-radical, perspective.

Deb

 

[movie zombie]

i gotta love this one: "scumbag welfare trash " as its the first time i''ve heard corporate welfare described so succinctly!

peace, movie zombie

ps not trying to change the thread topic but just loved the words!

 

[tanuki]

It''s the U.N.''s purpose to bring the countries of the world together to combat genocide. America is just one member of the U.N. Unless America has used its veto power in the security council to keep aid away from Rwanda or any of these other countries we shouldn''t be forced to bear the entirety of the blame.

As an aside, America borrows more money every year than it takes in. Why don''t the countries we borrow money from every year so we can have our deficit spending just skip the middleman and send aid money to Africa?

 

[MINE!!]

What about the countires that OWE us money?

 

[movie zombie]

Mine, good question....can you list those countries?

as Tanuki stated, "America borrows more money every year than it takes in." while i didn''t miss the sarcasm re the comment to skip the middleman and have that $$$ sent directly to Africa, the fact is that the US economy is existing on paper debt.

if you or i ran our households the way this administration is financially running this country, we''d be called irresponsible. but that is another topic for another thread.

africa has real problems and needs real solutions. it has been raped and pillaged for profit by most of the western world. its time the western world came together and acknowledged its debt to Africa.

peace, movie zombie