Sapphire for an engagement ring - Need some help

[ika411]

Hi everyone,

I am looking for a single sapphire as the center stone for an engagement ring. I have been on what now seems to be a quest for the last 9 months trying to find a stone that will work. In the last 9 months my girlfriend and I have visited 10+ jewelers/cutters in three states and numerous websites recommended on this forum. To date, we haven't found "the one" yet. While normal people would have probably settled by now, we are going to keep trying to find this sapphire because I just know its out there somewhere. Still, with the difficulty we've had so far finding the right stone, it leads me to believe that we need to double check that our expectations, specs, and budget make finding our stone even within the realm of possibility. Hence, I am posting here to hopefully get some of your expert opinions.

Sapphire Specs:
1. Round (required)
2. Untreated (required; we know it's rare and like the idea that it'd be unique.)
3. Brilliant (precision if at all possible)
4. Size: 7.5 - 8.5mm
5. Eye clean (required)
6. Medium blue (based on what we've seen and what jewelers call that color)

My budget is $10,000 max and every jeweler/cutter we've talked to says this is not a problem, but yet no one has been able to deliver on every aspect above. It's usually 4 or 5 out of the 6. Usually it's short on size or treated.

We've also found that the prices we get quoted are far greater than what we've read on the forum. Here are some of the more notable examples closest to what we're looking with all the information we were provided (and can remember). None were brilliant cut:

A. 8.0mm, 2.1 carat, treated $7,395 (color was too light)
B. 8.10mm x 7.97mm, 2.69 carat, untreated $9,685 (color was very dark, almost black)
C. 7.3mm, 2.17 ct, untreated $7,400 (Sri Lanka with great color)
D. 8.2mm, 2.91 ct, untreated $8,200 (color was too dark and blackened in the shade)

We are going to see these tomorrow and have no idea what the colors are like yet:
E. 8.2mm, 2.72 carat, treated $8,840 (Madagascar)
F. 8.13mm, 2.71 carat, treated $11,518 (Madagascar)

Given the information above, are we kidding ourselves if we hold out and keep looking for a stone with the specs we want? Are we looking for a stone that's find-able? Are our desires within the realm of possibility? We are starting to hear from jewelers and cutters that a round cut sapphire in this size is rare. They either don't have it (and don't want to look) or can't find it. Could this be true?

Everyone says untreated sapphire is rare. But how rare is "rare"??? When we ask jewelers for stones, we typically only get one untreated and several heated to look at even when we tell them we want unheated.

We also know we will have to pay a premium for the cut and size, but how much of a premium? It seems like some of these quotes are almost double compared to the information we found on this forum. Knowing that we're possibly getting ripped off is making it difficult to budge on any of our requirements. "If we're going to get ripped off anyway, we better get 6 out of the 6 requirements."

Any comments on stones A-F (assuming the color is like the ones in the picture below) would be helpful in our continuing (and seemingly endless...) search.

It's been 9 months; I really want to get the ring and propose, so finding this stone is my highest priority. I would really appreciate your opinions and thoughts. If you know of a stone like this, please let me know. I will buy it from you!

Thank you!!

 

[chrono]

For what you are looking for, I'd say forget the usual places and contact the lapidaries recommended on PS personally (email or call) with your request. Your requirements are difficult and almost at the point of perfection.

1. Round - most sapphires come in ovals, followed by cushions, then other shapes like rounds.
2. Untreated - not particularly rare but when combined with fine colour and size, yes, it becomes rare.
3. Brilliant - excellent faceting or precision cut adds a lot of difficulty to this quest, but it's good to have a beautifully cut sapphire.
4. 7.5 to 8.5 mm - 2.5 to 3.5 cts to get a feel for $/ct.
5. Eye clean - not unrealistic.
6. Medium blue - only refers to the tone. Top colour is slightly violetish blue, medium dark toned with vivid saturation.

Given all the above, $10K is doabe. Buying from a Brick & Mortar store will cost more as they have a larger overhead cost. Precision cut stones are generally also priced higher. The prices quoted for the quality as you described is indeed very high.

Richard Homer is able to get very high quality blue sapphires although they are heated. I would suggest asking if he has anything unheated and etc. He also does traditional flat faceting so don't get concerned with what you see on his website.
http://www.concavegems.com/main.html

Other great lapidaries with who deal with very high end stones include Jeff White.
http://www.whitesgems.com

With the major gem show early next year in Tucson AZ, now's the time to get in touch with as many lapidaries as possible to look out for the right material to facet.

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

Your best bet if you want to work with a brick and mortar jeweler/cutter is to find a jeweler who is on polygon. I just did a search on there and there are about 40 sapphires in round cuts with untreated lab reports in that size, cut, and color. The jeweler can also reach out to the community of 22,000 suppliers and other jewelers to find "the one". How rare is an untreated stone?

When I was in GIA we were told 99% of sapphires were heated or treated in some ways. Rounds are also more rare for sapphire. Perfect blue colors are exceptionally rare for unheated stones as well. So you are not looking for a 1 out of a 100 stone, its more like a 1 out of 500 or 1 out of 1,000 stone. BUT they are out there and doable for that price range.

Hope that helps.

Jim

 

[PrecisionGem]

For what you are looking for, I'd say forget the usual places and contact the lapidaries recommended on PS personally (email or call) with your request. Your requirements are difficult and almost at the point of perfection.

With the major gem show early next year in Tucson AZ, now's the time to get in touch with as many lapidaries as possible to look out for the right material to facet.

While this may sound like a good idea, I think it really isn't. You may be better off to deal with one lapidary around Tucson time. Last year I was talking to a few other cutters, and it turns out we were all looking for the same thing, for the same customer. The customer was planning on buying only one stone. This isn't a real big deal on a stone that cost a few hundred dollars, but I would hate to shell out $10,000 only to find out the customer bought a similar stone from someone else. I know once I heard that several others were shopping for the same thing, I was done with the hunt on my end. Could be all the other cutters dropped out too.

 

[chrono]

Gene,
This is good to know and definitely understandable, especially when the rough is going to be very costly in the first place.

 

[ika411]

Hi all! Thanks for all your input (and patience for not responding earlier). We have been exploring some options. We went ahead and contacted the people you guys suggested and the only inquiry that has led to anything is with Jeff White (everyone else including Roger Dery and Gemfix told us they didn't have what we were looking for in their inventory and didn't seem interested in looking further).

Jeff White just sent us these pictures of a native-cut color changing sapphire (from top to bottom: natural light (noon-day overcast), incandescent light, and fluorescent light). If recut, he believes it will be on the lower end of our size range around 7.5mm (or smaller). Here's a description he sent:

"The origin is Sri Lanka (Ceylon). The stone came certified from the seller through a Sri Lankan lab that I've used quite a bit. Also, fine unbroken silk is readily-discernible within the stone, confirming the unheated state. There are also a few crystalline inclusions present that, if heated, would likely rupture and result in discoid fractures in the stone. However, they are pristine and intact. The price for this one is $2,860."

Given all the high prices we've been quoted, we can't help be wary that the price is relatively low. We've asked Jeff about the clarity and are waiting to hear back on that.

Based on these pics and info, are there other issues we should be concerned about? From what I've read on this forum, Jeff has a very good reputation so can we take him at his word that the stone is unheated?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

 

[ILikeBond]

Where are you located?

I visited Andrew Gulij at Gemfix (http://www.gemfix.com) in San Diego today, and he had a great selection of beautiful sapphires, many unheated. His website shows most, but not all of his inventory. Two of them jump out at me for you, though neither meets all the criteria -

No. 1039 - perfect in every way except significantly over budget. But he may work with you a bit (he did with me).

Sapphire Round "Portuguese" Cut
Weight: 5.06 cts
Measurements: 9.5mm, depth 7.1mm
Clarity: VVS
Origin: Sri Lanka
Enhancements: None
Price: $ 16,690.00
Order/Stock No.: sapphire_blue_1039
Description: Incredible. Certified untreated Ceylon sapphire. Huge, absolutely breathtaking medium blue, well saturated. Stunning. AGL lab report included. (Cut by Andrew Gulij)
Pantone Blue 072C & flashes of 2718C

No. 949 - beautiful color, great size, but heat treated. This was one of my "final 4." You can see it in my thread, second from left I think in my last post, but trust me when I say that the pictures don't do it justice.

Sapphire Round Modified "Roulette" Cut
Weight: 3.50 cts
Measurements: 8.8 mm
Clarity: VVS-VS
Origin: Madagascar
Enhancements: Heat only
Price: $ 5950.00
Order/Stock No.: sapphire_blue_949
Description: Wow. Where to start? This is absolute top color, deep, glowing, royal blue. 2 small dash-like inclusions at 6 o'clock (see pic) Heat treatment only, with GIA Certificate. Huge. (Cut by Andrew Gulij)

BTW, his Portugese cuts shimmer like crazy (not sure if they're considered "precision"), and he's very good and helpful on the phone if you can't visit him in person (I listened to him talk to a client/customer for a while about a couple stones).

 

[chrono]

The sapphire shows a lot of potential, likely to improve in brilliancy and possibly colour once recut. Price is good and I like colour shifters / changers.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

I really like this stone. Very special. It smart to ask about clarity-issues.

Ask Jeff about the cert it came with. Probably reunigem, which is not a bad lab as far as I know, but you'd probably want AGL to corroborate on something like this. I don't think Jeff's trustworthiness really matters when it comes to treatment. Even major labs get an evaluation wrong from time to time. Just ask Jeff how he wants to handle the AGL gem brief, which he will no doubt obtain after cutting. I'm sure he'll send it off with a batch of others. He may tack the 55+ dollars onto the final price if that wasn't already factored-in, and you'll have to wait a few weeks. I'm quite certain that its his policy that if the stone doesn't come back unheated, you wouldn't be obligated to buy it. But ask him to clarify. Until then, precede as if its unheated.

Please set me straight, oh PSers, if I am giving bad advice...

 

[corundum_conundrum]

woops, I take it by Jeff's mention of "crystalline inclusions" that it is probably not eye-clean...I guess you will get further detail...

 

[ika411]

Thanks ILB, Chrono and CC for your feedback! I'll keep you guys posted on what Jeff says. If this color changer doesn't pan out, we'll get back in touch with Gemfix...


P.S. Great name CC

 

[minousbijoux]

Jeff has integrity, is honest and forthright, so trustworthy - yes. But as you've probably heard repeatedly here and elsewhere, trust but verify. For your peace of mind, particularly for appraisal/insurance purposes, you may want a lab report.

That said, Jeff was pretty clear in his email to you when he said "fine unbroken silk is readily-discernible within the stone, confirming its unheated state." If it is the case that rutile silk is evident under magnification, then it has not been treated and you can likely verify that yourself with a loupe. Jeff is a gifted cutter - to have an unheated sapphire cut by him would indeed be an heirloom IMO. His work is stunning. The color of the stone he is offering you is quite good - both in its blue and purple forms. Sometimes with color shifters one color is more pronounced and attractive than the other, so its great to see that both are equally balanced.

I can't recall if you mentioned the current weight of the stone, but his price quote seems very good for an unheated stone of that caliber. Does that price include his cutting? I'm sure you are, but you'll need to keep in mind that although you're paying for the stone's current weight, you'll end up with a smaller stone. All in all, though, I would take his offer as he has cut some of the the prettiest sapphires I've ever seen.

 

[LD]

Jeff has integrity, is honest and forthright, so trustworthy - yes. But as you've probably heard repeatedly here and elsewhere, trust but verify. For your peace of mind, particularly for appraisal/insurance purposes, you may want a lab report.

That said, Jeff was pretty clear in his email to you when he said "fine unbroken silk is readily-discernible within the stone, confirming its unheated state." If it is the case that rutile silk is evident under magnification, then it has not been treated and you can likely verify that yourself with a loupe. Jeff is a gifted cutter - to have an unheated sapphire cut by him would indeed be an heirloom IMO. His work is stunning. The color of the stone he is offering you is quite good - both in its blue and purple forms. Sometimes with color shifters one color is more pronounced and attractive than the other, so its great to see that both are equally balanced.

I can't recall if you mentioned the current weight of the stone, but his price quote seems very good for an unheated stone of that caliber. Does that price include his cutting? I'm sure you are, but you'll need to keep in mind that although you're paying for the stone's current weight, you'll end up with a smaller stone. All in all, though, I would take his offer as he has cut some of the the prettiest sapphires I've ever seen.

Ditto +1

As for clarity - he's already provided that by telling you of the crystal inclusions. What you may want to ask is how evident they are at normal viewing distance i.e when on your hand and viewed that way - that's the test you really want (not what you can see with a loop). From his note I suspect that the clarity will be good. For the price/size/recut, I would go for it.

 

[chrono]

The presence of silk alone is insufficient proof that the sapphire is unheated. However, if the crystalline inclusions remain intact, then it is very likely to be unheated. Since this is a very important stone, you may want to consider having AGL verify the lack of treatment with the $55 Fast Track brief. I also understand the inclusion to be only seen under high magnification (just as with the silk) and it is good that you are confirming this with Jeff.

 

[ika411]

Jeff just responded about the clarity:

"Clarity is quite good for a blue sapphire of this size/quality, but there are a few here and there. The inclusions consist primarily of silk and clear crystalline inclusions. I would expect this one to cut eye-clean or very close to it. It will not be loupe-clean, but very very few sapphires are (I've cut one loupe-clean sapphire in the last two years, and it wasn't anything to write home about in terms of color ."

I just asked about the current carat weight v. new weight and double checking on the cost. I think though we're onto something and unless anyone here sees something really out of the ordinary, we are going to ask to see the stone prior to the recutting.

Thanks everyone for your expertise! Will keep y'all posted.

By the way, ILB, we're on the east coast so getting to San Diego will be hard (but would be awesome).

 

[minousbijoux]

I think you are making a wise choice - I guess I think that because hands down, thats the choice I'd make

In fact come to think of it, based on what I've seen, don't tell Jeff this, but I would be willing to pay a premium over going rates just to have his eye regarding color and his ability with respect to cutting, because I know it would likely be a forever stone.

Can't wait to see the next steps. I may just have to go whisper in Jeff's ear myself...

 

[ika411]

Some more info from Jeff: "The current carat weight is 2.84 ct. I estimate 2.1 to 2.5 ct. on recut, and as mentioned before, a maximum of 7.5 mm in diameter (probably between 7.0 and 7.5 mm)." He also confirmed that the price was all-inclusive (except shipping).

So we've asked to see the native-cut stone! May take a while before I have any more update, but will let you guys know asap!

 

[minousbijoux]

Especially with the apparent scarcity of ER quality sapphires, I think you've absolutely made the right choice! But then again, you probably knew that I would think that.

 

[BluesBass]

Hello,

I'm also a newbie looking to buy a blue sapphire for an engagement ring. I'd like a round stone in the 2.0 carat range to have set in a platinum setting. Price is not really an issue; I'm choosing the carat weight more for aesthetics than for budget. (I don't think my girlfriend would prefer a stone that is too large.)

The problem is, I intend for this to be a surprise, and I want the ring before my girlfriend & I leave for a week long trip to London on Dec 22nd. I almost ordered a stone and setting from gemsny.com, but then I found this site, and after reading a number of faqs and threads, realized I had no idea how to judge a good stone and that I was probably about to get a very mediocre one at best.

I think my best option at this point is to order 1-2 from gemsfix.com, pick the one I like best, and have it set at a local jeweler (I'm not near San Diego).

Given my time constraint, do you think is a reasonable approach?

The gemfix.com site shows a few round blue sapphires in the 1.8-2.1 carat range. Does anyone have any particular comments or stone recommendations?

What other options do I have? I live near Washiongton DC. Does anyone have any local jeweler recommendations that I might check?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ika411]

BluesBass, small world! We also live in DC, Arlington specifically. We've been to tons and tons of jewelers in the past 10 months (PA, MD and VA) and the one we've liked best is May Jewelers (http://www.mayjewelers.com/default.aspx) in Tysons Corner. We've been working with Vincent there. He's very patient, knowledgeable (about metals and diamonds; not as much about colored stones but better than most of the other salespeople we have encountered) and definitely the best person to go to at their store. Their prices seemed reasonable too. We tried to find sapphires through him for a couple of months, but he was unfortunately unable to deliver what we wanted (not for lack of effort). That said I believe he would be great for making settings, and we plan to go to him after we get our sapphire. Good luck! If you end up going to someone else and have a great experience, let us know!

 

[GregS]

WILDS on etsy just put up a bunch of unheated sapphires, I'm fond of the oval one, but there a couple of rounds as well.
http://www.etsy.com/shop/WILDSglobalminerals?ref=seller_info

 

[BluesBass]

BluesBass, small world! We also live in DC, Arlington specifically. We've been to tons and tons of jewelers in the past 10 months (PA, MD and VA) and the one we've liked best is May Jewelers (http://www.mayjewelers.com/default.aspx) in Tysons Corner. We've been working with Vincent there. He's very patient, knowledgeable (about metals and diamonds; not as much about colored stones but better than most of the other salespeople we have encountered) and definitely the best person to go to at their store. Their prices seemed reasonable too. We tried to find sapphires through him for a couple of months, but he was unfortunately unable to deliver what we wanted (not for lack of effort). That said I believe he would be great for making settings, and we plan to go to him after we get our sapphire. Good luck! If you end up going to someone else and have a great experience, let us know!

I live in Arlington too! Thank you so much for the recommendation. I may also stop by Dominion Jewelers in Falls church tomorrow. Did you visit them?

 

[bk4ver]

Ditto with ika411, Vincent at May is a wonderful person to work with. We got our engagement ring and wedding rings there.

 

[corundum_conundrum]

Blue Bass,

The quickest way to get opinions would be to start a new thread, and post a few pictures of the stones you might want to order (go ahead and reserve a couple with the vendors and/or crop the pictures to eliminate tell-tale backgrounds so that no one undercuts you for the stones!) Then ask which one you should move ahead with and you'll get lots of thoughts from people on this forum. Your request for help is not very noticeable in this thread.

 

[ika411]

BluesBass, small world! We also live in DC, Arlington specifically. We've been to tons and tons of jewelers in the past 10 months (PA, MD and VA) and the one we've liked best is May Jewelers (http://www.mayjewelers.com/default.aspx) in Tysons Corner. We've been working with Vincent there. He's very patient, knowledgeable (about metals and diamonds; not as much about colored stones but better than most of the other salespeople we have encountered) and definitely the best person to go to at their store. Their prices seemed reasonable too. We tried to find sapphires through him for a couple of months, but he was unfortunately unable to deliver what we wanted (not for lack of effort). That said I believe he would be great for making settings, and we plan to go to him after we get our sapphire. Good luck! If you end up going to someone else and have a great experience, let us know!

I live in Arlington too! Thank you so much for the recommendation. I may also stop by Dominion Jewelers in Falls church tomorrow. Did you visit them?

BluesBass, we visited Dominion Jewelers first before any other jeweler. We really wanted to support a local company and liked that they were nearby. We were also really impressed that they did the work right there in the shop, and they were very helpful in helping us narrow down the kind of setting we wanted. We even went in a couple of times to look at sapphires. In the end though, they, like other jewelers in our area, just could not deliver on the sapphire. If I remember correctly, the owner was one of the people that said "there are no unheated sapphires." He also talked down to us, either because we look "young" or, more likely, that we were "cheap" because we were not looking for diamonds.

The second people we visited was Quest Fine Jewelers in Fairfax: https://questjewelers.com/.. A lot of PSers have recommended them. When we visited them, we had really good feelings too. Their store was much shiny-er and very bright with a more modern decor. The saleswoman Daphne that helped us was very nice and helpful with the settings. Their price was a little bit higher. However, we eventually gave up on them when I sent Daphne several follow up emails and never heard back.

We also trekked out to Hunt Country (http://www.huntcountry.com/). We liked the mom & pop feel of the store (much like Dominion Jewelers) but we didn't like the style.

We have had the most luck in terms of sapphires locally with Ron George in Annapolis/Severna Park. He was very helpful and one of the few B&M shops that was able to produce unheated sapphires of good quality very quickly. Everything he had, however, was smaller than what we wanted (
Here's a post we started back in January (wow, apparently it's been 11 months, not 9 since we started this!) about finding jewelers in DC/Annapolis/Baltimore: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/jeweler-in-dc-annapolis-baltimore-area.170353/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/jeweler-in-dc-annapolis-baltimore-area.170353/[/URL]

 

[chrono]

Blue Bass,
The quickest way to get opinions would be to start a new thread, and post a few pictures of the stones you might want to order (go ahead and reserve a couple with the vendors and/or crop the pictures to eliminate tell-tale backgrounds so that no one undercuts you for the stones!) Then ask which one you should move ahead with and you'll get lots of thoughts from people on this forum. Your request for help is not very noticeable in this thread.

Ditto the above. Most readers are likely to gloss over this thread, presuming that there will be no further updates for a while.

 

[ika411]

We got the recut stone from Jeff White yesterday and here are its specs:

Weight: 2.48 carats
Diameter: 7.33mm
Depth: 5.6mm
Treatment: none
Origin: Sri Lanka

The cut is not quite brilliant (the pavilion is slightly bulbous) and the girdle is a little bigger than I was expecting but the culet is definitely sharp and centered. There are some cloudy inclusions near the surface at the edge of the table and between a star and a bezel but they aren't obvious unless you look for it. At a glance they just look like a smudge. Here are some pics: 1) in natural light; 2) in fluorescent light; 3) close up in fluorescent light; and 4) in a 6-prong setting (not the one we're planning to have but we wanted to see it in something close to our final setting). The first two pictures were courtesy of Jeff and much higher quality. Price is less than $3k. Is this a fair price given that it has visible inclusions (although somewhat hidden by the cut)?

 

[chrono]

Sounds like Jeff did the best he could to preserve colour, weight and liveliness while trying to work around the inclusions, hence the thicker girdle and etc. If your fluorescent pictures are accurate, that's a good stone. This will be the worst it'll look. $1100/ct on a 2.5 ct unheated well cut stone with above average colouration is a good price to me. How's the outdoor colour?

 

[FrekeChild]

Very promising!!!! The color looks pretty awesome.

 

[ika411]

Here are some pictures we took outside in the sun.