Sapphire Question

[ilovesparkles]

http://www.swdgems.com/product_detail.php?productid=4099

I have been looking at sapphire recently, a very new thing for me. And I like this one but under the comments it says Fingerprint. What on earth does that mean? Other stones have had comments such as color zoning which I understand to mean the color is uneven throughout the stone.

Also, the grading system for gems seems to not be as clear cut at for diamonds. I have seen flawless, loup clean, eye clean, very slightly to noticeable inclusions. So would I be right to assume that the eye clean stones are just that but inclusions show up under a loup vs, included stones to have inclusions you can see with your eyes?

Thanks for the help! My mom has decided to buy me a ring or necklace for graduation and so I have begun a search. Right now I am mostly looking at sapphires and blue topaz. I want a stone in the blue-green family and light to medium darkness. It is really exciting but I have a lot to learn before I make a purchase!

 

[valeria101]

I'd guess it is meant to describe an area of concentrated inclusions, especially if it looks like a 'disk' of dust trapped into the stone (much like a fingerprint looks like on a transparent foil held against light). This at least is what I would expect, the picture is of no help.

I would worry allot more about the very low price (in fact, why and what is being sold for it) rather than that. Either these guys are crazy to sell 1.2cts sapphire for $75 or the other camp asking twenty times that is.


Medium tone blue green would match the description of a fine aquamarine, although sapphire or tourmaline might have such color at times. Probably aqua is the least expensive, although considering similar light color, sapphire comes reasonably close in smaller sizes (a few hundreds for carat for either that is). Aqua colored tourmaline is quite exotic, and if the seller believes the material ought to be classified among Paraiba wannabees... it can be quite expensive too (1k/ct and up - which is quite a bit for small tourmaline).

A random c thought. Hope some helps.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Thanks Ana! Right now I am very confused! I have found another sight www.multicolour.com that sells gems for outrageously cheap prices. I just cant figure out either what is wrong with these gems or what is wrong with the over-priced sights. Like thenaturalsapphirecompany seems extremely overpriced compared to some of the others I have been browsing. How do I know who is telling the truth and who to trust? I will be doing a sapphire store search on here shortly but does anyone have a well trusted online store?

Thanks!

PS I am looking at sapphires and topaz mostly right now.

 

[gemnut]

Hi ilovesparkles

I was recently studying inclusions in rubies, and came across the term "fingerprint". Apparently, it is used to describe a small (or large) inclusion of another metal within the stone. These appear usually as a dark spot in the gem and are usualy set so that they don''t show, on the underside of the stone.

Hope I helped.

Gemnut

 

[colorchange]

Date: 4/2/2006 9:14:05 PM
Author: ilovesparkles
Thanks Ana! Right now I am very confused! I have found another sight www.multicolour.com that sells gems for outrageously cheap prices. I just cant figure out either what is wrong with these gems or what is wrong with the over-priced sights. Like thenaturalsapphirecompany seems extremely overpriced compared to some of the others I have been browsing. How do I know who is telling the truth and who to trust? I will be doing a sapphire store search on here shortly but does anyone have a well trusted online store?

Thanks!

PS I am looking at sapphires and topaz mostly right now.

On a whole the quality is not the same.
Ake also carte that multicolour is selling a lot of treated gems at prices very far above market.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Thanks for the info! I guess part of my frustration is my incredibly small budget. I know there are some threads that lists like 100 different websites to buy gems but what are the BEST and most TRUSTED sites that you would reccomend? THanks again!

 

[Amandas_Jewels]

Ilovesparkles - Here''s a website that sells Natural gemstone jewelry and loose gemstones, for really good prices. They also have a 30 day return policy for anything under $500. I shop with them all the time. http://www.jtv.com
Good Luck! ~Amanda

 

[valeria101]

I am not sure if Multicolor is unusually cheap. Like that they give a 'color grade' - even if there is no independent color grading to help compare offers between stores, at least theirs helps compare goods from their extensive list. Same goes for the other sellers... mostly. The Natural Sapphire company obviously charges something for their reputation and unusual stash of untreated only sapphires. Whether the pictures tell the story, is another question - even with them, the description does go some distance tempering expectations (although an awful lot of pieces are called 'vivid' and 'flawless', wish there was a description of color). Oh well...

Can you post a couple of examples (two) that make a good case that similar goods go for strikingly different prices? It happens, of course, And chances are I would not be able to read between the lines of the sellers' presentation better than you can, but I sure am curious to see what you are seeing. Maybe it would help with you search as well.

Frakly, I do not expect buying online to be easy without much opportunity to see what the colors look like. Diamonds have so much less of a problem there and independent grading and even with all that... it isn't all said and done. Color is supposed to be more difficult without standard grades and considering the unlimited variety of shapes etc. Often sellers volunteer more reliable descriptions than their websites do - after all, no one cares for returned merchandise. This does limit choices to shops where you can get in touch with the seller and have a honest conversation, but fortunately there seem to be enough of those. The good old fashioned way of asking the jeweler who ends up making the piece to source stones is still alive and well. Sometimes cheaper too.

My 2c.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Thanks a lot for the input again Ana! I have already decided to steer clear of the multicolour.com and another website that had seemingly cheap prices. My dear mother who started this project with me did a little reading and found that they are located in Thailand. So even if the stones are of the quality they claim they are, customs taxes, shipping costs etc would all greatly increase that nice price. And returns may be extremely difficult to impossible if I was not statisfied. I have started searching more local jewelers and my mom and I are planning a trip to Knox jewelers hopefully this week to look at stones up close

 

[Amandas_Jewels]

Got more to say - I don''t know if this is something you would like to do, but you can buy gemstones on ebay and get really good prices. You just have to be careful, and you need to know what your doing. I just wanted to suggest this. I recently picked up a Blue sapphire on ebay, for a really crazy price. It is an Unheated and Internally Flawless Blue Sapphire with a Medium Royal Blue Tone from Kanachaburi. Here''s a Picture.

 

[valeria101]

Returns to Multicolor would work... post takes longer. Since most gems are imported and Thailand such a large market, you may find lots of sellers online located there and who knows, chances are that the stones you would consider in the US have passed by a Thai dealer at some point too.

Anyway, I digress. Funny how the same seller is dismissed once for being too expensive and once for being to cheap on the same Pricescope thread! This used to be just another website, now I am intrigued.

Ok. I am not advocating anything here.

But funny thing, no?



Have you given a try to the sellers posting here? I don't think they can post about their merchandise on the forum unless you ask.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Date: 4/4/2006 12:07:57 AM
Author: Amandas_Jewels
Got more to say - I don''t know if this is something you would like to do, but you can buy gemstones on ebay and get really good prices. You just have to be careful, and you need to know what your doing. I just wanted to suggest this. I recently picked up a Blue sapphire on ebay, for a really crazy price. It is an Unheated and Internally Flawless Blue Sapphire with a Medium Royal Blue Tone from Kanachaburi. Here''s a Picture.

Oh now that was a productive suggestion. I just landed myself two very close Blue Topazes and am hoing (pray for me) to land a blue sapphire by 6am

The topazes are for me and the sapphire is most likely a surprise for my mom

Ever since this whole gemstone kick started, and I remembered about some ancient things I inheritted from an aunt that I have never given a second thought to prior, my mom has decided I should just give her my aquamarine pendant I inherited because it is her birthstone. Well humph! Anyways, I am off to post the few things I do own yippeeeeeee

 

[riogems]

Both SWD and multicolour are real legitimate gem companies.

Note though, it is difficult to buy a gem online. I sell gems online too (though don''t take this as a solicitation), and the whole task is quite daunting of figuring out how to photograph, describe a stone, and communicate it to your audience.

Blue topaz is a cheap stone... treated by radiation. Pricing can vary based on cutting, color and on clarity. All being said, I can''t imagine you''d ever have to pay more than $10/carat retail on blue topaz. On ebay you should be able to scoop it up for less than half of that.

Blue sapphire is a very varied stone. A blue sapphire in the 1ct range can sell for $10/ct - $1,000/ct. Some online retailers are even asking $1,500/ct+ for their top 1ct -- which is outrageous. When you are buying online, how do you know which stone you are getting? Photos are typically manipulated, especially for offshore ebay sellers, where the cost of a graphic-artist to "improve" a photo is negligible. I''ve written a pretty thorough guide to ceylon sapphires -- although I''m hesitant to post the url.

In summary, in a sapphire, there are some critical factors to consider -- the color, treatment, origin, and for lack of a better word clarity. These different factors will push the price of the 1ct stone from between $10 - $1,000. That''s a huge variation.

Online sellers (on ebay or otherwise) are selling you for a profit (not a loss). So, how do you know the $750 stone isn''t the $75 stone with a new pricetag and photo? You just have to find someone you can trust, with a GOOD return policy.

From your time spent searching, I would love to hear about what you think are good ways to rate the gems. I want to re-rate all of our sapphires online to have a more accurate and apparent system.

Also, I forgot to mention that if you like a blue-green color, fine aquamarine is a great choice.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/6/2006 4:01:10 AM
Author: riogems


From your time spent searching, I would love to hear about what you think are good ways to rate the gems. I want to re-rate all of our sapphires online to have a more accurate and apparent system.

This one may be well served by a thread all of its own

A search though this forum should yield a couple for older threads about color stone grading too, but they were of the ''what if'' kind rather than practical.

Some of the shops mentioned frequently on this forum have their own rating systems: Multicolour, Awsomegems, Cherrypicked... and recently, Richard Wise made a scoring system up for his website (www.rwwisegoldsmiths.com). This last one comes with a fairly extensive description on the said website, and even better - has been discussed on a different gemology forum quite a bit. There, there are a couple of threads about this rating system, including THIS. A couple of details about it left me wondering... there''s a long post about it.

You must have heard about Stuller''s ''Gem Wizard'' thing. I don''t know if it was mentioned on this forum until now though. What do you think of it?

 

[ilovesparkles]

Riogems - I am confused as to why you wouldn''t want to link your website, most vendors do that on here don''t they? I have gotten some mixed messages about topaz. What makes it not such a great stone I am really curious! It seems to be rated as a 7 to 8 for hardness which is part of why I like it plus the color is just gorgeous IMO. As far as when I look at pics, a lot of gems I see have what look to be obvious inclusions. I won''t consider anything rated by the vendor as anything worse than eyeclean but I realize they can either be lying or not have a very good way of rating their gems. Color ratings I don''t pay much attention to because its all about whether I like the color or not and not what the rest of the world considers to be desireable. The topaz from ebay was just for fun and I got them really cheap so we will see what I end up with.


Ana: the link your provided wasn''t right he must have changed it or something. anyways it is www.rwwise.com. As always your replies are very appreciated!

 

[PrecisionGem]

What makes Topaz not such a great stone is that it''s so plentiful, and the color is artificial. Topaz is very inexpensive, so much so that you will almost never see a cutter in the US cut it, other than in very large pieces. Even with top cutting, sky blue topaz will only sell for maybe $10-$12 per ct. So say if I spent 3 hours cutting a 2 ct. stone, I would end up with something I could sell for $20. The rough maybe cost me $1 so theres $19 to be made in 3 hrs, that $6.33 per hour. Hmmmm.... I could go work at Walmart for that. Walmart sells Blue Topaz too!
What makes a stone precious, really is rarity, well except for diamonds, there are plenty of diamonds to go around. What makes a diamond precious is advertising. "I diamond is forever" really put diamonds on the map, and on every girls finger.

 

[riogems]

I didn''t post a link because: 1) I''m brand new to this forum, 2) self-promotion is usually frowned upon, and 3) how can I unleash my website to this serious level of critics? Hahaha. My pictures are mediocre at best -- and my descriptions are atrocious. I''m used to selling items where people can see them (or where they''re pretty standardized based on samples), so I have not thought about a serious system for grading.

Thanks Ana for the links to the other threads. I don''t think the GIA color/number/number scheme is ever going to be obvious/understandable to a consumer (who doesn''t do a lot of research). Although a number of these sites disclose the color this way too (multicolour - for example if you click on the color description they will show you that). Most of these gems are usually self-graded anyway... so there will be an element of trust required. Do any end consumers have the color cards to compare anyway after they receive?

Regarding topaz - there is some great topaz - fine imperial topaz - one day I will post some pictures on the forum of some pieces. However, most topaz mined is clear -- and then treated to give it color. There is nothing wrong with it -- but it isn''t rare. The big dealers have mulit-millions of carats of it polished and ready to sell (or in treatment). To put that in perspective, approx 4.5 million carats is a ton -- so there are tons of this stuff out there literally. Topaz is a very popular gem for mass market jewelry -- because it is easy to establish a consistent affordable supply of calibrated sizes. Take this however you will, but it is not meant to be negative or positive about topaz. I really like it myself -- I don''t consider it a collector''s piece (it''s a fun gem - like you said).

 

[ilovesparkles]

Date: 4/6/2006 1:25:06 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
What makes Topaz not such a great stone is that it''s so plentiful, and the color is artificial. Topaz is very inexpensive, so much so that you will almost never see a cutter in the US cut it, other than in very large pieces. Even with top cutting, sky blue topaz will only sell for maybe $10-$12 per ct. So say if I spent 3 hours cutting a 2 ct. stone, I would end up with something I could sell for $20. The rough maybe cost me $1 so theres $19 to be made in 3 hrs, that $6.33 per hour. Hmmmm.... I could go work at Walmart for that. Walmart sells Blue Topaz too!
What makes a stone precious, really is rarity, well except for diamonds, there are plenty of diamonds to go around. What makes a diamond precious is advertising. ''I diamond is forever'' really put diamonds on the map, and on every girls finger.

So now I am still confused. I am only trying to understand and not in any way be critical so please do not take it as that. On your website you have some blue topaz but it is more expensive than $10/ct. Why? Is it only with sky blue topaz? I know yours are much darker and gorgeous I might add.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Date: 4/6/2006 1:33:50 PM
Author: riogems
I didn''t post a link because: 1) I''m brand new to this forum, 2) self-promotion is usually frowned upon, and 3) how can I unleash my website to this serious level of critics? Hahaha. My pictures are mediocre at best -- and my descriptions are atrocious. I''m used to selling items where people can see them (or where they''re pretty standardized based on samples), so I have not thought about a serious system for grading.

This makes sense I did find your website through a search and liked some of your pieces though. And trust me your descriptions are not atrocious! I have seen way way worse

 

[valeria101]

Date: 4/6/2006 1:33:50 PM
Author: riogems


Thanks Ana for the links to the other threads. I don''t think the GIA color/number/number scheme is ever going to be obvious/understandable to a consumer (who doesn''t do a lot of research). Although a number of these sites disclose the color this way too (multicolour - for example if you click on the color description they will show you that). Most of these gems are usually self-graded anyway... so there will be an element of trust required. Do any end consumers have the color cards to compare anyway after they receive?

Color cards (samples etc)? No...

Thinking of what I do with the color ratings from websites... it is not that I expect the stone to match the picture exactly, or a color swatch. I do expect that the scores or grades allow goods from the said website to be compared one with another. If anything, I find it annoying when quality descriptions take the most expensive item of the current stock for reference, making any comparison with the reality one click away from their website feel like some sort of undercover activity!

About GIA encoding... yeah... I have yet to meet someone who finds splitting color into hue, tone and saturation intuitive. Duh!

As far as I understand, Stuller''s Wizard interface tries to translate that into electronic color ''swatches''. The resulting visuals look intuitive enough

No idea how the system is available for commercial use though. And the interface is not the most friendly thing on Earth despite obvious effort from the makers. I wonder what they had in mind calling their software a ''color communication system'' ? Sounds a bit... utopian.

Considering that commercial presentation is hardly about color grading. I wonder, if the current state of affairs on your website needs changing at all and for what purpose.

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 4/6/2006 2:32:05 PM
Author: ilovesparkles

Date: 4/6/2006 1:25:06 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
What makes Topaz not such a great stone is that it''s so plentiful, and the color is artificial. Topaz is very inexpensive, so much so that you will almost never see a cutter in the US cut it, other than in very large pieces. Even with top cutting, sky blue topaz will only sell for maybe $10-$12 per ct. So say if I spent 3 hours cutting a 2 ct. stone, I would end up with something I could sell for $20. The rough maybe cost me $1 so theres $19 to be made in 3 hrs, that $6.33 per hour. Hmmmm.... I could go work at Walmart for that. Walmart sells Blue Topaz too!
What makes a stone precious, really is rarity, well except for diamonds, there are plenty of diamonds to go around. What makes a diamond precious is advertising. ''I diamond is forever'' really put diamonds on the map, and on every girls finger.

So now I am still confused. I am only trying to understand and not in any way be critical so please do not take it as that. On your website you have some blue topaz but it is more expensive than $10/ct. Why? Is it only with sky blue topaz? I know yours are much darker and gorgeous I might add.

Blue topaz comes in a number of colors. Form cheapest to most expensive it would be like this:
Light Blue
Sky Blue
Swiss Blue
London Blue

Sometimes you see others called "Extra color Swiss" or something like that. The London blues are the more expensive. Now if you get into natural colored Topaz, such as the Imperials etc. they can get much more expensive than the blue. Typically what you see in the mall jewelry stores and department stores are the sky blue stones. I think Swiss Blue is very pretty, but I just can not warrent the time to cut it. The guys in India and China who cut this stuff by the bucket load, are paying 5 to 10 cents per stone to have it cut. For them it''s worth while, although sad.

 

[ilovesparkles]

Wow thank you all so much for the in depth info about the value of topaz! The ones I purchased are london blue and look very very pretty in color. One is 2.44 ct and one is 2.86. Both are 9.1mm diameter but slightly diff thickness. I paid a total of $8 for the both of them so I feel like I got a really good price. Of course there is no way to know if the pics were altered until I have the gems myself so we will hope and see. I will attach a pic of one of them. Not sure what I am going to do with them yet because they might be a bit large for earings.


ETA: funny how my post about sapphires has turned into a discussion about topaz eh!

 

[londonblue]

ooh, i love london blue topaz
actually, that''s the stone in my avatar.

funny, i just bought some beads the other weekend in both swiss blue and regular blue topaz.
the swiss blue was being sold for $3/ct and is very intense in color for faceted beads. my london blue topaz is nice as well, but not always quite as intense in blue as regular faceted lb topaz. i''ve seen lb topaz beads for between 2-2.5/ct for a standard briolette cut

anyway, those are just bead prices, which are very different from the higher end faceted stones
oh, and my whole pt in posting this was that in my experience w/ beaded gemstones, swiss blue is most privey, then london, then sky, then regular blue topaz.. not sure what color regular blue is

and here photos of the lovely sb topaz i got (top). and spiral cut blue topaz (bottom):