sapphire(value of picking quality, in relation to size)

[mrdlau]

Hello,
I'm new here and have been reading quite a bit about sapphire. I'm planning to buy a sapphire engagement ring and after browsing a number of online shops, i"'m trying to figure out the best balance in relation to size and quality.

My question is: is there a practical point where picking a 'perfect' sapphire will not bring much value, because the stone is so small, that you can't visually enjoy the quality?
For example, I'm just browsing on GemsNY and they have a round sapphire, with supposedly perfect specs: FL Clarity, non-heated, Intense Blue, Excellent Brilliance, but only .84 Cts (around 5.49mm x 5.48mm).
I do not know anything about the site, so I'm just going by what they state. This is just for me to explore the stones.


http://www.gemsny.com/sapphires/0.84-Carat-Round-Sapphire-SU40317RD/#

Or

There is a 1.33CT (around 6.45mm x 6.5mm) with 'not perfect' specs. i,e heated,VVS1 clarity, very good brilliance, but quite a bit larger and costs a couple hundred less.

http://www.gemsny.com/sapphires/1.33-Carat-Round-Sapphire-S40186RD/

I mean, between these 2 types of stones (in general), which would you pick? The 'perfect,' but smaller stone, or the larger, but only having the 2nd best specs? This is an engagement ring, and I definitely want something that is at the best balance between size and quality. But I also want something that will look great, to the wearer and also to people who sees her wearing it (and without visible or obvious imperfections to the naked eye)

Assuming I pick something that is under 1CT, do you really notice the FL clarity and Excellence Brilliance vs a stone under 1CT that is not FL, and not Excellent?

also, for any one who has purchased a stone under 1CT, how do you like it in terms of size once you actually wear it? According to the specs, it appears to be a pretty acceptable size, but I can't really tell. for someone who wears a size 6 ring, does it seem too small? Just by the pictures, it seems to cover my finger pretty well.....

And lastly, when looking for sapphire, is there a certain spec that I should always get the best of? I,e clarity? brilliance? Right now, I know that my girlfriend likes 'deep blue,' so i'm going to stick with anything at the royal blue, or deeper; but everything else, i'm still deciding.

 

[dk168]

I am no expert, however, if I were to select one of the two posted in the original thread, I would choose the smaller stone, as its colour appeal to me more. Colour preference is very personal though.

Also, it is unheated, even though I am not particularly bothered by heat treatment of gemstones.

As for the size of the stone, it depends on a number of factors, such as ring design and setting, finger size, hand shape, and desirable amount of finger coverage.

If the finger is long and slender then a 6mm stone will be a good size for a ring even in a simple solitaire setting. However, one short chubby finger like mine, I would need something bigger, like 8-9mm.

Hopefully, the experts will come along soon to offer their advice.

DK

 

[Lady_Disdain]

It all boils down to the individual. Some people want the finest stone possible, regardless of size: untreated, ideal colour, flawless, etc. Others value size over all and are willing to get a highly treated stone, etc. Some prefer to optimize their budget: get an eyeclean, heated stone of good colour and good size. There is no right answer, but it is a question of knowing what makes your heart sing.

Recently, a poster was looking at a fantastic yellow diamond. To me, it hit all the right spots: good cut, clarity and beautiful colour. However, the poster thought it was too small and moved on. Two different people, two different choices. Sometimes, even the same person uses different parameters in different situations. I love precision cuts and I have sacrificed size for cut many times. However, the last ring I made for myself has a tourmaline with a, ahem, rather large window and a flaw running right under the table. But the colour is glorious and the flaws aren't as visible when worn (although it photographs terribly).

What kind of setting are you planning? A small stone in a halo is a very different look from a small stone in a classic solitaire. The halo or a more ornate setting is more forgiving of size than a solitaire where the stone has to stand up all by itself.

 

[Lady_Disdain]

Elaborating a little (sorry, I didn't stop to gather my thoughts before posting). A lot of the quality grades go beyond what is visible to the naked eye and requires a loupe to see. So, to the casual observer, a flawless stone and a VS stone won't look different. If you are looking for balance, picking an internally flawless stone doesn't make sense: it won't make the stone more beautiful but it will make it more expensive.

Your "perfect" stone, however, is not perfect. It seems to have a pretty serious window, which will impact the stone's appearance. Your second stone looks like it is very, very dark, even under studio lights. Under normal lights, it may black out.

I think you can do better with your budget than either of these stones and the people here will be more than happy to help you find something.

 

[mrdlau]

thanks for the detailed response. Right now, I'm aiming for a solitaire setting, on a white gold. My budget, the best case would be under $2000 for the stone and setting, so I"m still trying to work all this out.

I'm glad that you said I can do better than these 2 stones; at least this gives me hope and more choices. Now, just need to search online and find a good dealer.

Also, lady_disdain, the ring on your profile picture. Is this yours? Can you tell me what mm this is, just to give me an idea and scale?

 

[T L]

I don't trust UGL reports for full disclosure of all enhancements. A heated stone can still be diffused.

 

[eastjavaman]

Check our vendors, to see if you can find "better" stone for your budget, of course you have to pick the best out of the bunch which is no easy task. At times you have to sacrifice quality for size and vice versa, only when money is no object, you "probably" will get best of both world

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/can-we-start-a-new-thread-with-respected-cs-vendors.169561/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/can-we-start-a-new-thread-with-respected-cs-vendors.169561/[/URL]

 

[woofmama]

Here's a nice sapphire by a well known cutter who many on here have purchased from. It's under your budget and comes with an AGL gem brief: http://mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=7790

Dana is a really nice guy and you can return it if you don't think it's the one for you. Most of the sapphires at a carat or better are closer to $2k on the other sites.

 

[mrdlau]

wow! thank you! that looks amazing! I'll definitely keep this on my list of potentials. If there was something just a bit darker, then I would totally go for it (or is dark blue out of my range?). Ill keep looking and learning!

 

[pregcurious]

I have to agree with the posters above.

Your lady probably has an idea of her perfect engagement ring, and that includes color and size. I would find out what her expectations are as it is all about her.

Here, we are usually concerned with color. However, I think most of the public would be very happy with darker sapphires (think Kate MIddleton's sapphire) than the trade and most posters here prefer. If your lady likes dark sapphires, they are less expensive and you may be able to get one that is larger than a trade "ideal" color sapphire.

 

[mrdlau]

Thanks!

I did have a discussion with her, and did get an idea of what she likes.

For the setting, we will probably go with a solitaire.
For the shape, she likes Round
For the size, We think that 5.5 to 6mm will be good. More than 6mm will be better ofcourse; but we don't want to get something too large that will overpower her finger. Plus, we want something that is elegant, rather than 'bling bling.' Her finger is pretty small (size 6 ring). I can't try it on with her since she is not with me at the moment

For color, she does like the Kate middleton Blue - a bit on the darker side; but she's a bit worried that looking at it from far away, or looking at it when away from the sunlight (indoor), the stone will appear black (or lose a lot of the blue tone). So I guess, the criteria for color is 'dark blue' as opposed to....'blue blue (light blue, sky blue, etc)...'

http://www.gemnation.com/images/sapphire/blue-color-table.jpg
If this helps, more on the strong medium, strong dark and vivid medium vivid dark is my best guess.


As for quality: Whether it's natural untreated or natural treated is probably not something that we really care about. For me, as a guy, of course knowing that I have something that is 100% natural and rare will satisfy my ego...but I guess, I need to be practical. We know we want something that is not lab-made. If it is amazing even under a 10x microscope, I would think that's a bonus. I know we probably an't get the 'best,' but we want something that is visually appealing in both looks and quality.

 

[Starzin]

For color, she does like the Kate middleton Blue - a bit on the darker side; but she's a bit worried that looking at it from far away, or looking at it when away from the sunlight (indoor), the stone will appear black (or lose a lot of the blue tone). So I guess, the criteria for color is 'dark blue' as opposed to....'blue blue (light blue, sky blue, etc)...'

This is precisely what happens with the Kate colour of sapphire and many people simply do not realise how truly beautiful a well cut, medium-light coloured sapphire can be because all they've ever seen is the navy blue version.

If possible, I would strongly suggest that you and your girlfriend go window-shopping to get your eye in as to how they look in all lighting (not just inside the store).

You definitely want someone across a room to see it's a blue sapphire

 

[JewelFreak]

The sapphire from Dana that Woofmama posted is, to my eye, a really good buy for the price. Keep in mind that in a setting, a stone looks a little darker than it does unset.

Starzin's suggestion that you look around at different colored sapphires & see them in various lights is excellent -- anyone needs that experience to make a happy choice. You might ask the jeweler if he has a mounting you could just set the stone into to give you an idea how it will look set. Or hold it in your fingers in the store so the pavilion (the bottom part) is covered.

I think the 2 you linked to would both black out in low light. They are both very dark. It's hard to realize at first that it's best to go a shade lighter so the stone will hold its color in a setting.

 

[chrono]

Perfection is what you make out of it; each person's criteria is different from another's. As you said, for most people, it is finding the right balance between budget, colour, cut, clarity, size, etc. Where is the practical point? When time is a constraint and you don't know if you can find anything else better within your time frame.

Sapphire 1
FL clarity is over-rated and of little to no importance when it comes to coloured stones. Eye clean is the standard. Loupe clean is also over-rated and only something that one would pick as a personal preference. There isn't much of an added premium for a loupe clean stone. This sapphire has a strong purple modifier, making it strongly violetish blue, if that matters to you. Unfortunately, it is also windowed, so the sparkle is limited only to the edge of the stone, with the centre remaining dark and "dead" due to the cut.


Sapphire 2
There is nothing wrong with heated, as long as the colour is what you like and it is determined to not be diffused. Again, VVS1 is overkill but I don't understand how such a very dark stone can show good brilliance as claimed. I would be concerned that the stone is so dark as to look black under lower light conditions and when viewed from a distance.

In short, I would look for something eye clean, with strong saturation, well cut and probably around medium light to medium toned.

 

[treasurehunter]

Whatever faces up nice … thats how to buy coloured stones

 

[Lady_Disdain]

For color, she does like the Kate middleton Blue - a bit on the darker side; but she's a bit worried that looking at it from far away, or looking at it when away from the sunlight (indoor), the stone will appear black (or lose a lot of the blue tone). So I guess, the criteria for color is 'dark blue' as opposed to....'blue blue (light blue, sky blue, etc)...'

This is precisely what happens with the Kate colour of sapphire and many people simply do not realise how truly beautiful a well cut, medium-light coloured sapphire can be because all they've ever seen is the navy blue version.

If possible, I would strongly suggest that you and your girlfriend go window-shopping to get your eye in as to how they look in all lighting (not just inside the store).

You definitely want someone across a room to see it's a blue sapphire

Compare that sapphire with Beyonce's sapphire ring. Even in a non posed shot, you can see how blue this sapphire is, while Kate's looks black (with, perhaps, blue sparkles) most of the time.

 

[Vidalia]

I agree with several of the (more experienced) other folks who have posted saying that color preferences are very subjective. Therefore, it's great that you are including your girlfriend in the process! I imagine she really appreciates being consulted and having her preferences considered.

While it's true that the trade ideal is a medium-toned, vividly-saturated, velvety blue to blue with violet flashes, that's not necessarily your or your girlfriend's ideal. If possible, please do see some sapphires in person; it'll really help ya'll figure out your personal preferences.

Finally, if you like the sapphire posted by Woofmama, please consider reserving it; I posted about it in the "Somebody's gotta buy..." thread last week.

Good luck with the search!

 

[T L]

For color, she does like the Kate middleton Blue - a bit on the darker side; but she's a bit worried that looking at it from far away, or looking at it when away from the sunlight (indoor), the stone will appear black (or lose a lot of the blue tone). So I guess, the criteria for color is 'dark blue' as opposed to....'blue blue (light blue, sky blue, etc)...'

This is precisely what happens with the Kate colour of sapphire and many people simply do not realise how truly beautiful a well cut, medium-light coloured sapphire can be because all they've ever seen is the navy blue version.

If possible, I would strongly suggest that you and your girlfriend go window-shopping to get your eye in as to how they look in all lighting (not just inside the store).

You definitely want someone across a room to see it's a blue sapphire

Compare that sapphire with Beyonce's sapphire ring. Even in a non posed shot, you can see how blue this sapphire is, while Kate's looks black (with, perhaps, blue sparkles) most of the time.

Well, it just goes to show you that even royalty doesn't always have the best gems. Thanks to the Kate/Diana ring though, the jewelry industry must be loving the plethora of sales of overpriced low quality, dark sapphires.

Beyonce's ring is gorgeous, but not everyone can afford such material. The wrong thing is to overpay because one assumes that the Kate/Diana ring is the look of a high quality sapphire, as it is not. Dark tone does not necessarily equal fine saturation.

 

[Starzin]

The wrong thing is to overpay because one assumes that the Kate/Diana ring is the look of a high quality sapphire, as it is not. Dark tone does not necessarily equal fine saturation.

This. Absolutely spot on TL.

 

[mrdlau]

thanks for all the replies. I know I'll be reading and re-reading this post up to the day I decide to buy.

Just for my sake of learning, I do have a question.

Someone mentioned that on the original post, the first sapphire has windows.

Here is the link to the stone
http://www.gemsny.com/sapphires/0.84-Carat-Round-Sapphire-SU40317RD/#
Are you referring to all the 'white spots' around the stone? Is it safe to assume that once you put the stone on a setting, some of the window's might go away (due to the setting closing some windows)?

Also, someone mentioned that the 2nd stone is too dark.
http://www.gemsny.com/sapphires/1.33-Carat-Round-Sapphire-S40186RD/
I also see a lot of black spots all over the stone too. Is that what you would call an 'extinction?' And I'm assuming that if a stone has extinction, there is not way to hide it no matter what.

So is the purpose to find a stone that is evenly distributed blue on the entire stone with minimal window(whites) and minimal extinctions(blacks)? Does that mean that a 'dark blue' sapphire should be translucent?

If you look at the side view, it also seems that stone 1 is more evenly cut, and stone 2 is a bit uneven (the left side of stone 2 seems to be angled differently than the right side). Does 'unevenness' mean that the cut is not as good(hence, causing the blacks)?

last question and that is regarding saturation. This is strictly determined visually, and not by any datum on on the sheet of paper right? A strong saturation means that it is evenly blue throughout and not a lot of brown or gray tones on the stone. is that correct? If so, is it 'brown' in the literal sense? I personally, have never seen any browns on a blue stone.

 

[chrono]

Stone 1
Giant window where one can probably see the skin or metal setting underneath instead of seeing the pavilion facets. It is highly unlikely that window will be less apparent once the stone is set due to its large size. This area (circled) will also look dull and dead, compared to the edges which will sparkle. Stone 1 is shallow, hence the large window.

Stone 2
Just too dark in tone (throughout the stone). This is separate from extinction. I am not overly concerned about total depth as long as it stays in the 70s and looks fine face up.


Saturation is the pop or neon-ness of colour. It ranges from gray at the lower range up to burning your retinas.
Tone is the lightness or darkness. For blues, it can go from pale, almost colourless to baby blue up through almost black.
Hue is modifiers that takes it away from a pure blue hue. It can be violet (purple) or green, in this case.
Evenness of colour has to do with zoning.

I am sorry I will be stuck in meetings the rest of the day and cannot fully explain everything (the whys and the effects). I will get back to this when I get the chance.

 

[indigoblue]

I'm no expert here. Everything I know about colored stones was learned from the regulars in this forum. I can safely say that a "window" is not a white area in a stone. It is an area where you can look directly through the stone and see what is behind it. If you look directly at the face of the stone (perpendicular to the flat table on the top side), you should see facets, not your finger or the back of the setting. In this example, you can read the newsprint through the stone on the right. This is not good.


Also you need to realize that vendors tend to photograph their stones in very bright lighting. When buying my sapphire, I found that all of the stones I examined were much darker in real life than they were in their pictures. Mastercut Gem's lighter blue sapphire mentioned above will most likely be darker when you see it. Personally, I want the blue to show from across the room. I don't want to have to shine a flashlight behind it to see the color. And I want it to sparkle too. Dark sapphires are cheap and popular with people who haven't looked at many sapphires, so if that is your main criterion, go for it. Get a dark one.

The sapphire in my avatar looks like it's light turquoise, but as I look at it right now, it is a dark, navy blue. I can still see the facets, however. The vendor's glamour shots showed it as being much lighter.

 

[indigoblue]

This one looks nice to me:

http://mastercutgems.com/index.php?page=viewgem&id=7792

 

[mrdlau]

thanks. I do have a better understanding of what to look for.

So, regarding the stone posted above from master cut gems, by indigoblue: Based on what I'm understanding, it looks like a great stone. Looking at it from the top, I do not see any windows or black spots, and it seems to shine pretty well. Looking at it with a critical eye, where are the faults on the stone? Besides an individuals personal preference( size, shade of blue, etc), where is the stone lacking?

Looking at picture of the side view, since I can kind of see the surface it is laying on, is that the 'window?' I do not see a lot of reflection of the bottom and top (from the side view picture).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this is a great stone, and the price, in my opinion is awesome...I just want to get some practice on analyzing the stone and knowing what to look for.

 

[LoversKites]

thanks. I do have a better understanding of what to look for.

So, regarding the stone posted above from master cut gems, by indigoblue: Based on what I'm understanding, it looks like a great stone. Looking at it from the top, I do not see any windows or black spots, and it seems to shine pretty well. Looking at it with a critical eye, where are the faults on the stone? Besides an individuals personal preference( size, shade of blue, etc), where is the stone lacking?

Looking at picture of the side view, since I can kind of see the surface it is laying on, is that the 'window?' I do not see a lot of reflection of the bottom and top (from the side view picture).

Don't get me wrong, I agree that this is a great stone, and the price, in my opinion is awesome...I just want to get some practice on analyzing the stone and knowing what to look for.

Well, it is heated, which not everyone tolerates.

About the side view thing -- that is a tilt window and can't be avoided.

I think it's really well priced too.

 

[JewelFreak]

The side view shows the facets well & some light reflection & transparency in the stone. A tilt window appears when you look at the top of the stone & tilt it from the perpendicular -- depending on the cut & RI of the stone, a window may be more or less visible.

Example from Cellantani a few years ago, same stone looking directly down to the culet and then tilted:




Dana's sapphire looks very well cut & a great color. Just about any colored stone will show a tilt window -- good explanation here: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/window-when-stone-is-tilted.109957/

If you like the size, color & tone of that sapphire, it's a nice one -- worth taking a look at it IRL. If it's not what you want, you can always send it back. It's a good medium blue which should hold its color when set.

--- Laurie

 

[woofmama]

OP-Did you buy either of Dana's sapphires? Both are marked sold now.

 

[mrdlau]

OP-Did you buy either of Dana's sapphires? Both are marked sold now.

I did not. Happy for whomever bought it.

 

[Starzin]

Pity but it points up something regular posters are aware of.. there are huge numbers of "lurkers" (759 guests at bottom of screen) who will watch the comments we make about stones and then buy them out from under the person who started the thread. This happens more often in the lower price ranges but is something to be aware of.

Better to post a photo without giving away who it's from if you are interested. Many here know the vendors so well they can tell from the photo where the stone is from.

Both of Dana's gems were very nice and certainly have the right "credentials".

Indigoblue - beautiful gem and ring!!! Thank you for posting

 

[LoversKites]

The side view shows the facets well & some light reflection & transparency in the stone. A tilt window appears when you look at the top of the stone & tilt it from the perpendicular -- depending on the cut & RI of the stone, a window may be more or less visible.

Example from Cellantani a few years ago, same stone looking directly down to the culet and then tilted:




Dana's sapphire looks very well cut & a great color. Just about any colored stone will show a tilt window -- good explanation here: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/window-when-stone-is-tilted.109957/

If you like the size, color & tone of that sapphire, it's a nice one -- worth taking a look at it IRL. If it's not what you want, you can always send it back. It's a good medium blue which should hold its color when set.

--- Laurie

Ooopsies, you're completely right. Thank you for the correction.