Sean Penn...

[Mandarine]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070803/ap_en_ce/people_sean_penn

What is he thinking!!!!!!?????

It makes me so mad!!!. These Hollywood celebrities just have no idea how much they can hurt a country. Opposing the war in Iraq is one thing, supporting a dictator is something completely different !!!. Chavez is using him and Sean Penn goes there thinking that he is doing some good?? to whom???....he is doing no good showing support to this guy, he's being used and Chavez is loving it!.

I just wish some of these celebrities would do their homework before doing something like this. Unfortunately, they are in the public eye and although this seems minor, it does hurt millions of venezuelans that are struggling to show internationally how much the venezuelan government hurts their own country. The truth about the situation in Venezuela is a very very sad one and one that is hard to see unless you live it. This idea of socialism although sounds very "romantic" (can't think of another word) to some when they look at it from the outside, has done nothing but done damage...politically, economically and socially.

Sorry for the vent...I realize I may be the only venezuelan in PS, but I just felt like sharing because it just angers me

M~

ETA: Some grammar

 

[luckystar112]

I don''t know much about venezuela...but I do know that I hate it when celebrities get into anything political. It''s like...STICK TO ACTING, BUDDY!

 

[Mandarine]

yes...and even in acting I have no love for him anymore

M~

 

[door knob solitaire]

I am holding on to your soap box, Mandarine...I don''t want you to fall off because you are expressing my thoughts too! Keep yelling!! But wave that flag a little stronger!! Don''t worry, I got cha babe, you won''t fall!

DKS

 

[Mandarine]

Thank you DKS!

It''s just a sad situation and you just feel helpless!!!.

I grew up in Venezuela and moved to the US when I was 17. I grew up taking democracy for granted, just like most people do when it''s all you know. Sure, there was corruption...and sure, we had presidents that made tons of mistakes!!...but we had freedom of speech, you had choices!. I came to the US out of choice. The people leaving now live because they really don''t have another choice. The younger professionals have no future there. The more established people just get sick of dealing with the constant stress of not knowing what will happen tomorrow. I still have lots of family there (including my mom!!!) and it is scary to say the least.

There is more corruption now than there ever was, there is hate in people...we never had had before. It''s scary to see Venezuela follow Cuba''s footsteps

....*sigh*...

And then you have people like Sean Penn that I feel like saying "really? you love it so much?...why don''t you move there then and live like everyone there is living?? and struggle like the rest of the country is??"...then go and stand next to this President and agree and show support?. I doubt he could...

M~

 

[surfgirl]

Mandarine, I dont agree or disagree with your country's President (though I greatly enjoyed his chutzpuh when he called our President "El Diablo" at the UN..That? Was comedy gold and not far off...), but isn't it possible that Sean Penn actually likes the musings of Chavez? What I'm trying to say is, maybe Sean Penn just likes the flavor of the day that he sees in Chavez. What he says about Bush is very spot on in many respects and I believe that is what Penn is attracted to. Not many world leaders have been willing to openly say Bush is an idiot (though I wish they would). You have a different perspective from him obviously because you're considering not only his stance on Bush, but his entire stance on how he governs Venezuela, right? I think Penn is only looking at the Bush-oriented aspects (man, that didn't come out sounding right did it?!?) of Chavez's remarks. And people who are utterly frustrated at the steaming hot pile of crap that this country has become might also be desperately reaching out to any and all other options just to see if there is a shred of something that might make our situation here better. Just something to think about. Again, not pro-Chavez, just trying to see it from another view point. I enjoy that he calls it like he sees it, and I see it (things here) the same way he does. That doesn't mean I support Chavez at all...

 

[Mandarine]

I didn''t enjoy his comment at the UN at all...

. Yes, it was comedy....that''s all he is, is comedy. Right or wrong, whether you disagree with another country''s president, you don''t go to the UN and ridicule your own country just to make a statement...just to have people talking about it. That''s what he wants. He wants people to be like "wow, he stood up to THE President". To me, that''s not standing up for anything, it is speaking like someone who has no education or can handle himself in a way that earns respect.

I won''t even touch on the Cuba subject because I know how they truly live and it is not pretty. Just to get toothpaste to brush your teeth is a hard thing to do...and if you are allergic to what the government provides, then well...you are just out of luck and hopefully either a tourist or a family member from outside of Cuba can send you or give you something that you can use and won''t give you an allergic reaction. So what services do they get from a health perspective?.

Everyone is free to go and show support...but he doesn''t know the true situation. He probably just liked "El Diablo" comment so why not go and show support. Then it makes the news here and it hurts Venezuelans....specially teh ones that are trying to show what the situation there is truly like but can''t ..because there is no freedom of speech...just recently a private TV station that has been on the air for years got shut down. Why? because they wanted to speak the truth...and that''s a no-no!. The news you will hear about Venezuela and what you see in the media is what they want you to see.

I''m not trying to attack you so I apologize if it comes off that way. I know you don''t mean your comments in a bad way...and I do appreciate you taking the time to chime in

...just trying to share my point of view.

M~

 

[surfgirl]

Well just so you understand clearly, I in no way equate his comments as speaking for all Venezuelans living here or elsewhere. They are his comments alone. Just as I hope others in other countries realize that Bush doesn''t speak for me or anyone I know.

Anyway, I''m not going to get into an emotional posting battle over this. Just trying to show why someone might gravitate towards Chavez. This is the reason that politics and religion are not supposed to be discussed here.

 

[Mandarine]

I wasn''t talking politics when I posted...more about celebrities doing damage because they are in the public eye and sometimes I don''t think they think through what they are saying when they say it. Anyone can have an opinion...not everyone has an informed opinion though, which is what I think happens with a lot of celebrities.

M~

 

[Miranda]

That makes me angry, too Mandarine! Unfortunately so many Americans have forgotten what freedom means and what it cost!!!! People that think living under a communist dictator is paradise should just GO THERE!!! Freedom is the reason that Penn and other people that think like him have the right to say those things. What happens to people that speak out about Chavez in his own country????? Thanks for starting this thread, Mandarine! I hope it opens some eyes!

 

[Mandarine]

Thanks Miranda!

It really isn''t politics. It''s about freedom and not taking things for granted.

M~

 

[Miranda]

Darn tootin!!!!!!!!

Regardless of political affiliation, freedom should never be taken lightly. I think our pampered celebs forget what is ''real'' and truly important in life!

 

[movie zombie]

lest we not forget, the same amendment that gives each of us the right to speak our mind on this forum [as long as it meets with the owner''s approval, of course, as this forum really is not a democracy. however, that this forum even exists is testimony regarding free speech] gives mr penn the right to speak his mind in the forum of his choosing. being a celebrity does not negate his being a citizen with the same rights as you and i. we may disagree with each other, mr penn, or anyone else for that matter: but one part of what makes this country great is freedom of speech. i''d rather see mr penn exercise is right and be disagreed with than to shut up. as long as he is free to speak, then you and i are also. freedom of speech: use it or lose it. the greatness of a democracy is that all people are free to speak no matter who it angers. the day one must stifle their speech to be political expedient is the day we are no longer a democracy. free speech means that each and everyone of us has to accept that we''re going to hear things we don''t like....i hear such things daily so in many ways i commiserate with your venting. no where in the amendment regarding free speech does it say one must do homework before speakiing out....oh, that it were so.

movie zombie

 

[Miranda]

Date: 8/3/2007 9:19:26 PM
Author: movie zombie
lest we not forget, the same amendment that gives each of us the right to speak our mind on this forum [as long as it meets with the owner''s approval, of course, as this forum really is not a democracy. however, that this forum even exists is testimony regarding free speech] gives mr penn the right to speak his mind in the forum of his choosing. being a celebrity does not negate his being a citizen with the same rights as you and i. we may disagree with each other, mr penn, or anyone else for that matter: but one part of what makes this country great is freedom of speech. i''d rather see mr penn exercise is right and be disagreed with than to shut up. as long as he is free to speak, then you and i are also. freedom of speech: use it or lose it. the greatness of a democracy is that all people are free to speak no matter who it angers. the day one must stifle their speech to be political expedient is the day we are no longer a democracy. free speech means that each and everyone of us has to accept that we''re going to hear things we don''t like....i hear such things daily so in many ways i commiserate with your venting. no where in the amendment regarding free speech does it say one must do homework before speakiing out....oh, that it were so.

movie zombie

Exactly!!! This is why it is so frustrating to hear an American siding with a dictator!

 

[surfgirl]

Miranda, have you read specifically that Sean Penn "sides" with said dictator's political leanings in total? Because all I've read is that Sean Penn appreciates and agrees with his views on Bush and how he has and is handling (or mishandling, whichever one prefers to believe) the war in Iraq. I've never heard Penn say he is in favor of the way Chavez conducts business in his country. There are people out there, who I dont believe are good or right or whatever, in how the lead their lives but I can still appreciate when/if they say something that I can agree with. I think this is what we're seeing with Penn. Again, if he's said he is in favor of how Venezuela is being governed, then please provide a link to said article because I'd like to read it. The article Mandarine posted says nothing of the sort. Only about how the two of them think alike with regards to Bush. Thats all. I once heard Robert Mugabe say something quasi-intelligible (and trust me, he makes Chavez look like a saint from heaven). When he refused a shipment of GMO corn from the USA. His rationale was that unless it was ground into maize meal prior to arriving in Zimnbabwe, there was a very high chance that people there would sow the GMO corn, possibly destroying the natually drought tolerant indigenous corn that grows there. There simply wasn't enough scientific proof to ensure that this would not happen and he wasn't about to take that chance. His rationale was sound and made perfect sense. All he was asking was for the USA to grind the corn before bringing it into the country because once it hit the border, it would be immediately used as seed. Mind you, I loathe the man. He's single handedly ruined one of my most beloved countries and I've lost friends and former students to his regime. BUT, I am not so proud as to refuse to recognize that he did ONCE make a decent decision that I could agree with. Same goes for this comparison with Chavez's views on the Iraq war. Agreeing with one piece of what he says doesn't a "dictatorial sympathizer" make. It also doesn't make Sean Penn less patriotic than you, me or Mandarine. That's the beauty of a democracy.

Then again, you say potato, I say potatoe...and we dont have to agree. But we both have a right to speak our minds. And that IS indeed a priveledge.

 

[movie zombie]

cut Mr Penn some slack: i could list the names of many in our government and in the news media that would have done well to do their homework before exercising their mouths [as well as other actions].....and i could list the names of dictators that the government of this country has supported [i only mention this as a reminder that other Americans in high places have already walked that road] .....but that would take us into the realm of politics which really is a no-no here. it is enough to say that those who proclaim to believe in and support free speech have the obligation to accept that they are going to hear things they don''t like. Mr Penn has done plenty of research on other issues including going to Iraq himself so i wouldn''t doubt that he did a little bit before he spoke on this issue. that his conclusions are not the same as yours is ok. that you as a venezuelan dislike that he speaks out is also ok. freedom of speech embraces you both.

movie zombie

 

[psadmin]

Date: 8/3/2007 9:19:26 PM
Author: movie zombie
lest we not forget, the same amendment that gives each of us the right to speak our mind on this forum [as long as it meets with the owner''s approval, of course, as this forum really is not a democracy. however, that this forum even exists is testimony regarding free speech]

This reply is specific to Movie_Zombies references to Pricescope forum as a dictatorship.

It is illogical to compare Pricescope to a government. First I have to say that discussion should meet the policies not my approval. Second you had all the freedom to choose not to be a part of the forum once you read the policies. The policies have been put in place to keep this forum a good knowledge base about diamonds, references about diamonds and a good place to get help about diamonds. The Policies help keep the forum clean. Just like, it is against the law to yell fire in a public place when there is no fire.

When you come to someone’s house and all the shoes are put neatly away do you continue to barge with your shoes on or do you slip them off after you where requested too. And if you did barge in to their house, I think you would be asked to leave.

I feel offended that you feel that way about this site and still continue to use it.

This post was a reply to Movie_Zombie only; it is not for discussion purposes because discussions about policies are against the rules.

As for the rest of the thread if it is kept polite I see no problem with it.

 

[door knob solitaire]

There is freedom to speak.

And there is also personal responsibility on where you choose to spend your freedom.

What if someone such as a Hollywood actor, put himself into the mountain range or cave area in Afghanistan...and said things to Osama Bin Laden that undermined or endangered the lives of service men. Would you still feel the same about freedom of speech?

What if he infiltrated a terrorist camp and spoke there?

What if he meet with Castro?

If actors and entertainers were a weapon againist ill doing in the world, we would utilize them. We choose to use diplomats with seasoned experience and knowledge of words said and the consequences thereof.

Reading a script in front of a camera, driving a fuel efficient car, or voting a certain way in a election does not provide you with the tools and etiquette to deal in foreign countries on diplomacy. You can endanger peace treaties and opinions and harm future negotiations. Where does he or others like him obtain their validity?

Use your freedom...with responsibility...belch your venom where it will not harm this nation. We have not asked you or voted you as our voice.

DKS

 

[Mandarine]

Thanks everyone for chiming in, I think it is an important subject and I''m all for debate and can understand and respect that we will all have different opinions.

The article that I linked here was just the one I found in English...he did more than nod and agree while Chavez was making remarks against Bush. I agree, he has freedom of speech...but he should be responsible in the way he uses it. Specially in a country were freedom of speech is not a given. If another actor wanted to go to Venezuela to show support to the opposition, he wouldn''t be allowed. And if they do speak, they probably won''t be broad casted (unless the tv station wants to end up like the other one that got shut down). If they speak in other countries then you would have the government calling them the devil and who knows what else.

So Sean Penn is exercising his right of "freedom of speech" in a country were their own citizens are afraid of because of possible retaliation. He is a dictator, a hidden one....but one indeed. Yes, Sean Penn and Chavez might both agree that the war in Iraq should end...but to sit next to him shows support of that person, no matter which way you put it. Just like when you see pictures of Chavez and Castro or Chavez and Hussein...they support each other.

Venezuela has enough problems, but Chavez is too busy trying to make his political statement internationally...and too busy trying to buy allies in other countries (by GIVING away Venezuelan resources).

For example (a silly example, but this is how I see it), Michael Vick and I may have something in common politically...I still would never stand next to that guy and nod and agree on that topic knowing what he seems to have done to those animals....and how cruel and heartless that was.

Ok, off my soap box for now

M~

 

[door knob solitaire]

Wait...you left me holding the box.....

Your Vick comparision was perfect.

DKS

 

[Julianna]

Date: 8/3/2007 8:00:52 PM
Author: surfgirl
Mandarine, I dont agree or disagree with your country''s President (though I greatly enjoyed his chutzpuh when he called our President ''El Diablo'' at the UN..That? Was comedy gold and not far off...), but isn''t it possible that Sean Penn actually likes the musings of Chavez? What I''m trying to say is, maybe Sean Penn just likes the flavor of the day that he sees in Chavez. What he says about Bush is very spot on in many respects and I believe that is what Penn is attracted to. Not many world leaders have been willing to openly say Bush is an idiot (though I wish they would). You have a different perspective from him obviously because you''re considering not only his stance on Bush, but his entire stance on how he governs Venezuela, right? I think Penn is only looking at the Bush-oriented aspects (man, that didn''t come out sounding right did it?!?) of Chavez''s remarks. And people who are utterly frustrated at the steaming hot pile of crap that this country has become might also be desperately reaching out to any and all other options just to see if there is a shred of something that might make our situation here better. Just something to think about. Again, not pro-Chavez, just trying to see it from another view point. I enjoy that he calls it like he sees it, and I see it (things here) the same way he does. That doesn''t mean I support Chavez at all...

Agreed on all aspect except one: This country has not been, is not, and will never be "a steaming hot pile of crap". I''ve lived outside of the USA enough to appreciate it for what it is; and as far as I''m concerned, it remains the greatest country in the world. The current heads of government will cycle through, hopefully the next administration makes us proud. They certainly couldn''t be any worse.

That said, I really enjoy all of your posts. Your thoughts are always very well-organized.

 

[treysar]

All I can say is that he became famous for playing a burn out hippie, and quite obviously, that’s what he still is.

 

[Maria D]

PS Admin wrote:

>>I feel offended that you feel that way about this site and still continue to use it.
This post was a reply to Movie_Zombie only; it is not for discussion purposes because discussions about policies are against the rules

Wow, I got a completely different vibe from movie_zombie's post. I did not think she was in anyway calling this forum a dictatorship -- just reminding us that we are in someone's 'home' and there are courtesies (aka policies) we follow. I didn't take it that she was discussing forum policies just remarking that there are policies -- just as surfgirl did when she said >>This is the reason that politics and religion are not supposed to be discussed here.
I took this line in particular to be a commendation of both Pricescope and the freedom of speech we enjoy:

>>however, that this forum even exists is testimony regarding free speechp]

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 8/6/2007 10:16:03 AM
Author: Julianna

Date: 8/3/2007 8:00:52 PM

Author: surfgirl

Mandarine, I dont agree or disagree with your country's President (though I greatly enjoyed his chutzpuh when he called our President 'El Diablo' at the UN..That? Was comedy gold and not far off...), but isn't it possible that Sean Penn actually likes the musings of Chavez? What I'm trying to say is, maybe Sean Penn just likes the flavor of the day that he sees in Chavez. What he says about Bush is very spot on in many respects and I believe that is what Penn is attracted to. Not many world leaders have been willing to openly say Bush is an idiot (though I wish they would). You have a different perspective from him obviously because you're considering not only his stance on Bush, but his entire stance on how he governs Venezuela, right? I think Penn is only looking at the Bush-oriented aspects (man, that didn't come out sounding right did it?!?) of Chavez's remarks. And people who are utterly frustrated at the steaming hot pile of crap that this country has become might also be desperately reaching out to any and all other options just to see if there is a shred of something that might make our situation here better. Just something to think about. Again, not pro-Chavez, just trying to see it from another view point. I enjoy that he calls it like he sees it, and I see it (things here) the same way he does. That doesn't mean I support Chavez at all...

Agreed on all aspect except one: This country has not been, is not, and will never be 'a steaming hot pile of crap'. I've lived outside of the USA enough to appreciate it for what it is; and as far as I'm concerned, it remains the greatest country in the world. The current heads of government will cycle through, hopefully the next administration makes us proud. They certainly couldn't be any worse.


That said, I really enjoy all of your posts. Your thoughts are always very well-organized.

Juliana, thanks very much for your compliment. I appreciate it greatly as sometimes I wonder if it's worth posting at all on forums.

I'd like to add that while I've also spent a lot of time living in developing countries, there are indeed, IMO of course, aspects of living in a "free USA" that are going in the wrong direction. For example, I think we have an epidemic of bad parenting going on here. An entire generation of children are growing up without any discernible manners, no respect for authority, a gross lack of awareness towards others. It's frightening to see this and then I go to a country in Asia or Africa and the kids are kids. And they know their place. They dont try to be 40 year olds in 14 year old bodies. They play like normal kids. Not like kids here, who seem to have a grossly misplaced sense of entitlement that is quite disturbing. And dont get me started about the fascist regime aspects that the current administration has implemented - the loss of privacy and civil liberties to a certain extent; the dictatorial attitude of a President that is supposed to, by law, answer to his Congress, etc. To me, these issues are dire indeed. Though of course we, as citizens dont really feel this in our daily lives as we're still able to go to work, buy new homes, buy luxury items, etc. So while we live a "normal life", I dont think there is anything normal about this country right now. One last comment on this point - when I come back from a developing country and people know I've been in remote areas, they always ask me, "so what's it like there? Are people civilized or what?" And my reply is usually, "Is it more civilized to live in clean mud hut with a thatched roof, knowing where your kids are at all times, and in a place with a real sense of community..Or is it more civilized to live in a country where in some places adults sell drugs to children and people do gang-banger drive by shootings? Which is the more "civilized" society?"

So no, I personally dont think the US is perfect, far from it. It's not the worst place on the planet, of course, but I was more referring to the political/social situation at the moment and all that that entails. I am just fortunate, or unfortunate as the case may be, to have opportunities to contrast and compare my country and its society to other countries and I am oftentimes struck by some of the more positive aspects of other countries societies, regardless of their political ideology.

As for the OP, Mandarine, I was wondering...If Sean Penn comes back and writes an open article that says he doesn't support Chavez's way of governing his country, would you then support him and his trip there? I'm asking sincerely. The reason I ask is because I think your posts are coming from a very emotional place that isn't allowing you to see other possibilities. Let me give an example...I work a lot in Vietnam. I first went there in 1994, just after they opened up to the rest of the world. There was most definitely a "Communist authority" vibe wherever you went. You always had to be with a minder, etc. Now, I dont condone how the government of Vietnam does business in their own country, but I never thought for one moment, "I'm not going there because I dont approve of how they govern their people." I would never deprive others of learning the skills and knowledge I can pass along to them simply because I dont like or approve of their government. Hell, I dont approve of my own government and I always tell colleagues in the field who are ragging on the US, to please not judge the people of the country by their government because it doesn't alway equal what the people want. Anyway, back to Vietnam, I went, I observed, I started talking to people in hotels, colleagues, etc. And you know what? Thirteen years later, the country is MUCH more open and people enjoy alot more freedoms that ever before. When I first went there you could barely get people in a hotel or shop to have honest open dialogue with you. Nevermind asking them what they thought about their government. Now? I have regular discussions with colleagues over the state of "The State" and what the future holds for Vietnam. I could have never had those conversations had we isolated Vietnam they way we isolate other Communist countries. The fact that people from outside have been living/working there for thirteen years has led to a natural and fairly smooth transition from a very closed Communist society, to one where you barely notice the trappings of their form of government today. And much of that change has occurred from within, with subtle proddings and nudgings and the interaction between western ideology and Vietnam's Communist ideology. In fact I have personally worked with high ranking govt officials in the Communist Party on some of my field work and little by little I see changes, real changes and shifts in attitude and thinking occurring in the areas I work in. And that again is from working from within. Of course Communism is still there, but I firmly believe that isolationism does not equal great, rapid and meaningful change in any society. It hasn't worked in Cuba (and the reason they have no meds is because the USA wont give them access to the global pharm. market so your example above is really the fault of this country), it hasn't worked in North Korea, it hasn't worked in China, Myanmar or Vietnam. But in the places where the USA and others HAVE made an effort to have a presence and "work from within", there HAVE been HUGE changes. Look at Vietnam and China. Both are Communist countries. So is Cuba. Why do we do billions of dollars of business with those countries, and give them hundreds of million in development aid dollars each year, yet we isolate countries like Cuba and Myanmar? It's ridiculous. I say this from the perspective of a development professional. That old adage "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" has much merit in the real world. It's too simplistic to say that everyone should stay away from Chavez because you dont like his politics. It's much more realistic to have access to such a person so that over time, he might become more influenced by others. Maybe Sean Penn had a heart to heart with him at some point. You just dont know. But if you want your country to change, I believe you cant do it writing complaints on a forum online. I think you have to make a commitment to attempt to make change from within. And for that, I applaud someone like Penn (even though I dont like his acting!), because at least he's not just here in the USA, shooting off his mouth. He's put his money where his mouth is and he's gotten off his butt and actually gone to places like Iraq to see for himself what the situation is. I cant diss someone that at least takes direct action in some attempt to make a change. It makes me wonder where a place like Cuba might be today, regardless of Castro, if all the Cubans in Miami would go back home and work towards making meaningful change in their own country, rather than continue to beat the drum of isolationism. Makes you wonder...

 

[Mandarine]

Surfgirl...

In my example with Cuba I wasn''t even talking about meds. I was talking about little things such as toothpaste or body soap.

I do applaude anyone that wants to go to any of these countries and see the situation with their own eyes. I don''t think to do that, you also have to go and sit next to a dictator and show support. I do see it as showing support, like I said before.

He wants to make a change?. Then make a change!....going to Venezuela so that they can bad mouth the Bush administration is not making a change.

Am I emotional to see how my country crumbles? how must of my friends left because they didn''t see an option? how my dad left after years on making Venezuela his country (he is originally from Spain)? after seeing all the hatred between social classes that exist today but didn''t exist before? after seeing how the cities deteriorate more and more each day? how it is no longer safe to go play at the park where I used to play? or how even writing here makes me a little nervous that maybe the venezuelan governement can track this back to me? after seeing how this guy tries to brainwash little kids in the "new government schools" with the same things that Castro did? how they tell families and kids and kids don''t belong to their parents, but to the "revolution"?? how the news don''t tell the real story because they can''t? how my mom calls me crying everytime there is a demonstration because she is scared? or how she sometimes (most times) joins the demonstration and I''m here hoping she is ok and all I see are people from the government beating up this people on tv (and they don''t even show the really bad scenes!)??

Yes, you could say I have reasons to feel emotional about this and I do not agree with Sean Penn''s actions. To stand by a guy that has hurt his own country in that way...it''s just wrong. It''s my opinion, yes, it''s emotional....but it''s my country so it does hurt.

And I''m sorry, but unless you lived there or know someone that lives then you don''t know what it is like. And it is clear to me from your posts that you don''t know. Sean Penn went to Venezuela because "things were happenning there and he wanted to see it with his own eyes". So what? 2 days, he walked around and feels he knows enough about the situation there and it''s ok to go and support this person?...please.

I respect your opinion and I am not taking this personal against you at all because I enjoy your posts. You wrote about your opinions...I''m writing about mine, and yes, they''re full of emotions and tears...and I can''t separate them when I talk about this. Call it childdish, call it silly, but I can''t help it!.

I stand by what I said before and the example I gave with Michael Vick. I have nothing against Sean Penn visiting Venezuela, or writing about Venezuela....my problem comes in when he decides to stand by him and support him. Celebrities do have freedom to do whatever they want, just like all US citizens do!...but they should have a little respect and exercise that right with caution. Specially when they are doing it outside of their countries.

Ok, I should get back to work...sorry about all the rambling!!!

M~

 

[Mandarine]

To your last comment about Cubans and why they don''t go back there instead beating the drum of isolationism?. Maybe I just misread that or I hope you really meant under a different political situation. Otherwise that is just such a wrong thing to say, and would show me that you truly just don''t know.

M~

 

[Julianna]

surf, to the parts of your last comment pertaining to answering me: agreed on all points this time, especially the one regarding the pathetic, irresponsible, sad excuses for parenting and the resulting pathetic, irresponsible, sad excuses for children this country is raising.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/6/2007 12:40:00 PM
Author: Maria D


PS Admin wrote:

>>I feel offended that you feel that way about this site and still continue to use it.


This post was a reply to Movie_Zombie only; it is not for discussion purposes because discussions about policies are against the rules<<


Wow, I got a completely different vibe from movie_zombie''s post. I did not think she was in anyway calling this forum a dictatorship -- just reminding us that we are in someone''s ''home'' and there are courtesies (aka policies) we follow. I didn''t take it that she was discussing forum policies just remarking that there are policies -- just as surfgirl did when she said >>This is the reason that politics and religion are not supposed to be discussed here. <<

I took this line in particular to be a commendation of both Pricescope and the freedom of speech we enjoy:

>>however, that this forum even exists is testimony regarding free speech<<

Maria D, thank you, that was exactly what i meant!

i have always understood that we are all guests here. the PS administrator has spent a lot of time, energy, $$ to create a forum for learning and sharing re diamonds and has been gracious enough to expand the forum to include color gems as well as topics completely unrelated to gems and/or jewelry.

i appreciate knowing that i wasn''t completely misunderstood.

movie zombie

 

[fire&ice]

Date: 8/4/2007 2:01:03 PM
Author: Mandarine
. I agree, he has freedom of speech...but he should be responsible in the way he uses it. Specially in a country were freedom of speech is not a given. If another actor wanted to go to Venezuela to show support to the opposition, he wouldn't be allowed.

Precisely the crux of the argument here. Penn speaks in a country that has no opposing voice. It's ironic. How in the world is that truly free speech? Pure and simple - it's not. It's dictating speech. Exercising one's free speech can not be in a vaccum - the vaccum that is Venezula.

It is upsetting what is happening in Venezula. My father loved Venezula. In today's world, he would be afraid to visit. He would be afraid to set up a company down there.