She won''t have it appraised. She won''t inpect it under a loop. What''s "Quality" mean then??

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

I guess my question is just as the title reads...How low of a quality can I go, assumming I want to get as large of a stone as possible? (I almost positive that I want to go with an oval, maybe a pear).

I''m currently working on the safe assumption that I don''t need to buy a "Flawless" stone because both my girlfriend and I are not going to be having this thing appraised. Nor will we inspect it closely. Simply put, as long as it looks great to the eye, we''ll both be happy. Very happy.

So far, I''m working on the assuption that a F,G, maybe an H or even a I will be great for us. Also, I''m thinking a SI1 or maybe a SI2 will be plenty. I''m most concerned about the quality of the color as opposed to the quality of the clarity.

I''m thinking the color of the stone is more important to us because that''s more easily noticable than the clarity (To the naked eye). Is that correct?? I am working on the assumption that the clarity I''ve chosen is fine because we won''t be looking at the stone under a loop.


I''m not looking for anyone to make-up my mind for me here, I''m just wondering if I''m thinking right...Or at least close??

 

[perry]

You ask a very good question that has been debated on this forum often.

How perfect a diamond is on the 4 C scale, and what it means to a person is clearly a personal issue.

Some people just must have a flawless diamond, others colorless, etc. (and only the wealthy can afford a larger flawless colorless ideal cut stone).

The most common perception out there is on Carat (or size), However, if you do not get other factors right all you are left with is what I call a "dead" stone (and I have seen large stone diamond engagement rings that I''ll swear a piece of well cut quartz would look better).

I beleive that you are beginning to understand the next 2 C''s that most people have to deal with: Cost and Compromise.

There are many on this forum, including myself, who is willing to compromise on Color and Clarity - and even Carat (size) to get a well cut high light return diamond (something that has "life", or "punch" -- otherwise known as sparkel and/or fire). For this I suggest that you visit the various vendors who are linked to this site and study the different technologies for determining quality of cut and light return of a diamond. There are sevearl tutorials here as well, and lots of forum threads on all of these topics (i.e. educate yourself).

Also note that a yellow gold ring will hide a slightly yellow diamond, and while others have more specific knowledge I suspect that an I or J in a yellow gold ring (with platinum setting) will not be detected by the vast majority of people - even on close inspection.

On clarity, please understand that a lot of people can see flaws in a SI1 or SI2 graded diamond with their unaided eyes - especially if they know where to look in the diamond. You either need to visually inspect the diamond, or deal with a vendor (or an independent appraiser) whom you trust. Several of the vendors provide what are known as "eye-clean" stones in the SI range. Also, in many cases the flaw can be placed under a prong in a round diamond.

On the other hand, there can be an advantage in having a stone with easily recognizable flaws - and some people want this.

In the end, it is your personal choice that will drive what quality of the various 4 C''s you purchase.

I have taken the approach of starting to teach my Gal about diamonds, their prices, the compromises, and have pointed out that I want to get her something that really sparkles. She is now also looking at other peoples engagement rings and now understand what I mean by "dead" stones (and in my experience in the last month - most people''s engagment rings are pretty dead as I have only seen 2 with good "life" in the diamond). Let''s just say that I have her convinced on that point and she is thankfull that I am taking the time to learn this stuff and that I want to get her something that willl look great, instead of just buying her a diamond ring (and the agreement is that if she decides that she will say "yes" that I will buy the diamonds and she will pick out and buy the ring. This may not be as "wonderfull" as a proposal from the blue, but she has been married before and is very cautious about another go arround, and I am not willing to spend that kind of money until all the major issues are worked out in advance, and her participating in the ring is the right thing to do in this case).

I wish you well in your quest, and your relationship with your bride to be.

Have a great Xmass

Perry

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 8:31

8 AM
Author: Feydakin
Even if she won''t have it appraised, you should.. It will help you insure the ring against damage or loss.. Unless, of course, you can afford to put $8000 in your driveway and set it on fire

Congrats on the coming engagement!!

Steve

It''s funny...I just re-read my post and knew that I had phrased that wrong and would have to address this...

Of course I''ll have it appraised. What I meant was, after she''s got it, neither of us are going to worry about an "Appraisal" in order to decide its worth to us. She''ll love it because I gave it to her. I''ll love it because she loves it.

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 8:38:10 AM
Author: perry

Also note that a yellow gold ring will hide a slightly yellow diamond, and while others have more specific knowledge I suspect that an I or J in a yellow gold ring (with platinum setting) will not be detected by the vast majority of people - even on close inspection.

Now this is GREAT information!! But I must ask...Are we sure about this? I ask this because I use this Shane page for my reference...

http://www.shaneco.com/jewelry/color.asp

And as you can see, on that page, the G-J stones are VERY yellow. And of course I don''t want a yellow stone. So I''ve been working on the assumption that G-H is about as low as I want to go.

The inclusions I don''t worry about so much because those aren''t so subjective. They''re either noticable with the naked eye or they''re not.


But you''ve presented a new dilema...

How am I going to know if the diamond I chose has this "Life" or not?? I''ll bet the answer is...I won''t know until I see it for my self? (And of course this would only be after I order it online, pay for it, and have it shipped to me? And if that is the case, I need to hurry and make my decision in case i need to repeat that process a few times before settling on my stone of choice?)

Any other tips that can help with this? Or, is it, as I suspect, something that only a personal, visual inspection will remedy? (Which, I assume, is one of the draw-back of ordering online??)

Thanks for any further help!!

 

[chrono]

I have a J stone that faces up really white (or colourless if you want to be precise) that is set in a platinum head with yellow gold shank. This ensures that the diamond will continue to look white even in a 18kt yellow gold setting. However, I did buy from a very reputable vendor here on PS and had it independantly appraised elsewhere to make sure I'm really getting what I'm told I have.

As for sparkle or life, there is no set of parameters for ovals but a good starting point is to follow the AGA chart here:
http://www.gemappraisers.com/
Go to the DIY cut grade, pick the oval and you'll see what parameters a good oval should have.
That is only the first step.

Once you've found a few that seem promising by the numbers, then call the stones in to view them personally. It is best to view this with an independant appraiser. If you choose to go this route with one of the PS vendors here like WhiteFlash, GOG, Superbcert, NiceIce, Engagement Rings Direct and the like, they can also eyeball the stone for you and tell you if it is nice, poor or a great oval.

I hope this is a good starting point for you.

Added:
If you send the stones to an independent appraiser, there is usually no cost involved (other than possibly the shipping cost). You don't have to pay for the diamond unless you want to buy it. But please double check this with the vendor. I believe most PS vendors here will not make you buy the stone in order to view it if it is sent directly to an appraiser.

 

[reena]

i checked out the shane link, but i''m not sure you''re getting the idea that G to J stones are "very yellow". i would not say that at all. color is a subjective thing, and some people can start to detect hints of yellow in I and J or even G or H stones, but it''s just that--hints. we''re not talking bumblebee yellow here, for sure.

the best thing to do to determine how color sensitive you are is to go out and see some stones of various colors in person. two things to note, however: common wisdom around here is that a very well-cut stone will face up much whiter than a stone of a poorer cut, so keep that in mind when you do your color comparison of stones. (figuring out what constitutes a "well cut" stone--or, whether a particular stone will have "lefe"--is another matter entirely and it will take you some time to get a feel for that; i would spend time reading posts here and doing the tutorial. also check out the tutorial at goodoldgold.com and the cut grading charts for ovals and pears at www.gemappraisers.com.) the second bit of conventional wisdom is that fancy cut diamonds (like ovals and pears for ex) can tend to show color more than round brilliants. for ex, there are some people here who have gotten ideal cut round stones that are Js or even Ks, and they say the stones face up so white you''d swear they were in the near colorless range. you can get a similar effect with well-cut fancies too--there are members with stones in the I and J range that also face up super-white--but people tend to say you''ll have an easier time masking color with an ideal cut RB than with a fancy. just a few things to consider.

 

[Todd07]

look at these to start
\"I\" color stones in platinum
Color Grade of your Engagement Ring
Will a \"face-up white\" G-J stone show color from the side?
Pics of my Bezel Set RHR - YAY!

I bought a J and would recommend the color to others

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/28/2004 9:49:44 AM
Author: Christmas Eve Proposer

Date: 10/28/2004 8:38:10 AM
Author: perry

Also note that a yellow gold ring will hide a slightly yellow diamond, and while others have more specific knowledge I suspect that an I or J in a yellow gold ring (with platinum setting) will not be detected by the vast majority of people - even on close inspection.

And as you can see, on that page, the G-J stones are VERY yellow

C''mon... it is not feasible to represent such faint shades on a computer screen. I do admire the sophisticated interface at Shane, but that nice one needs a reality check as any other such color chart. Between G and J there is a serious distance by all accounts (including price). That Shane assigned one color scheme for all these grades lumped together shows how limited such representations are.

Cut does influence somewhat the aparent color of diamonds (more sparkle = less visible body color), but color grades do not take this into account - only the tint of the crystal, not how it looks cut. So... you just have to see some diamonds of different color grades (GIA, not Shane or any retailer''s inhouse certificates preferably) and decide what is "too yellow" for you.

Inclusions are different in each and every diamond. Color is more standardized so once you see one you''ve seen them all. If the jeweler can show you a color refference set (that''s just a lineup of CZs carefully graded for color to serve as refferebce for diamond grading) even better.

Another thing: you can easily check what a certain diamond will look like (color wise) once set - just as to put the stone in any larger setting in the shop for this purpose. Setting does make a difference, ''cause the stones are this way seen mostly face-up where whatever tint should show radically less than the grade indicates.


Hope this helps. Nothing beats looking at a few (properly graded) diamonds though.

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 9:59

1 AM
Author: chrono
I have a J stone that faces up really white (or colourless if you want to be precise) that is set in a platinum head with yellow gold shank. This ensures that the diamond will continue to look white even in a 18kt yellow gold setting. However, I did buy from a very reputable vendor here on PS and had it independantly appraised elsewhere to make sure I''m really getting what I''m told I have.

As for sparkle or life, there is no set of parameters for ovals but a good starting point is to follow the AGA chart here:
http://www.gemappraisers.com/
Go to the DIY cut grade, pick the oval and you''ll see what parameters a good oval should have.
That is only the first step.

Once you''ve found a few that seem promising by the numbers, then call the stones in to view them personally. It is best to view this with an independant appraiser. If you choose to go this route with one of the PS vendors here like WhiteFlash, GOG, Superbcert, NiceIce, Engagement Rings Direct and the like, they can also eyeball the stone for you and tell you if it is nice, poor or a great oval.

I hope this is a good starting point for you.

Added:
If you send the stones to an independent appraiser, there is usually no cost involved (other than possibly the shipping cost). You don''t have to pay for the diamond unless you want to buy it. But please double check this with the vendor. I believe most PS vendors here will not make you buy the stone in order to view it if it is sent directly to an appraiser.

I''ve got one small problem...

I live in the middle of nowhere, Indiana. And the closest "Appraiser" is in or around Chicago...About 3 hours away. So, it''s probably a vacation day trip (Both because it''s kind of far away AND I will need to come up with a reason of why I''m out of the office when "She" calls and finds-out. Luckily, I can cover that because I''m a sales guy...I''ll just tell her in advance I''m going out to see a customer that day).

Anyway....It''s pretty hard for me to get to an "Appraiser" and I''ll hopefully only have to do it once.

And this brings-up another question I''ve asked elsewhere but haven''t gotten a good answer...

Why can''t I go to a relatively local Jeweler and have them check the thing out for me? (Assumming it has all it''s paper work and is verified as meeting all advertised criteria, of coruse). I mean I''ll need is to look at the thing under a loop to make sure it doesn''t have more inclusions than advertised....Right? Kinda????

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 10

3:25 AM
Author: reena
i checked out the shane link, but i''m not sure you''re getting the idea that G to J stones are ''very yellow''.

I agree, Reena.

I didn''t make it clear that I understand they''re showing the same shades of yellow for all those grades. And so far, as stated elsewhere, I''m OK with a G for sure, even an H probably, and maybe an I or J.

And just to throw another curve here (And yet another post), I''m not sure I want to go with a stone that''s larger than 1.5 carats. Just because I don''t want her to have something that''s too guady!! So obviously, that would allow me to step up in quality and/or put more money into the setting.

WOW! This so complicated! But you and all the others sure are helping!! Thank you so much!

 

[reena]

yes, i think that''s a good idea. i haven''t researched this TOO much but i think you''d probably have some trouble getting a well-cut 2 carat stone for $8k. better to stick with a 1.5 and go with a nicer setting. i''ll try to post some pretty sapphire and diamond settings, if i can find some.

 

[reena]

OK, if you aren't sure what she would like, then i vote for something simple and classic like these three-stone settings. what's not to like? i personally think that you'd be safer with a setting like this as compared to the one you posted--it's better quality AND the other setting, IMO, wouldn't necessarily appeal to everyone.

you'll have to imagine all of these with the diamond and sapphires reversed.

this one is my fave:

similar idea:

the one on the left:

here's one with heart sides; not sure if you could achieve that with sapphires, but hey:

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 10:15:32 AM
Author: Todd07
look at these to start
'I' color stones in platinum
Color Grade of your Engagement Ring
Will a 'face-up white' G-J stone show color from the side?
Pics of my Bezel Set RHR - YAY!

I bought a J and would recommend the color to others

Thanks for the links. I especially liked the 2nd one...The poll. The results really helped confirm my thoughts. I'm right in line with the majority.

 

[reena]

here''s a beautiful one from icestore.com (imagine with an oval), but you''d have to know she''s into a more antique look for this one. much less universally appealing than the simpler settings above.

some pretty ones from dahneandweinstein.com (again, reverse diamond and sapphires).

​

 

[reena]

this one is PERFECT! i''m telling you, nobody is not going to like this ring:

 

[chrono]

CEP,
I''m sorry to hear that you IA is very far away. Mine is also a 3 hour drive away. Yes, if you find 2 or even 3 ovals or pears that grade well on the AGA chart for ovals and pears respectively, then you probably only need to do this once. You can go to your local jeweler to do this, however, his opinion really isn''t unbiased because he sells diamonds too. So, in effect, he might give the stones you brought in a poorer rating, then push his stones on you. There is also more to the "life" of the diamond than checking for colour and clarity, which takes more than just looking through the loop. You will also not find this information on the cert. This is why an independent appraiser is highly recommended. There is no bias, just honesty and tons of experience to tell you if your diamond is well cut (or not) and if it is worth what you are paying.

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 10:37:54 AM
Author: reena
yes, i think that''s a good idea. i haven''t researched this TOO much but i think you''d probably have some trouble getting a well-cut 2 carat stone for $8k. better to stick with a 1.5 and go with a nicer setting. i''ll try to post some pretty sapphire and diamond settings, if i can find some.

Thanks again for the input Reena...

And remember...Until I found this place yesterday, I was set with a 1.31 Carat from Shane. Then when they told me they wouldn''t ship the stones to a store in Indinapolis for me to view, I decided to check-out these discount places that also don''t do the same. I mean...Why NOT??

Anyway...I got here and saw my buck going further and decided to get bigger (With the same quality minimums), but then thought about the TOO big factor last night and this morning...So here I am...Thinking of backing down to a 1.5 (With increase quality, of course). I might even change to a regular (Round) stone now....What do you think about that?

And please...You''ve been so helpful...Please feel free to tell me I''m an idiot. Tell me if conventional wisdom says 1.5 is PLENTY big enough and anything bigger is getting too much. I''m looking for all the help I can get.

Just how big is TOO big? If you can tell me. We''re both middle class, fun loving people. We don''t attend cocktail parties just to say we do. I want her to have the best (We can afford), but I don''t want it to be TOO much. She doesn''t wear a lot of jewelery...I don''t want her to feel uncomfortable. with something that''s just TOO big. Now...Shiney, lively, well-cut...That''s all fine, of course. Quality always is. Maybe this is a case of "Quality of Quantity"??

And remember...A big part of my problem is, I don''t have a good reference point of carat sizes. Not in real life. I''m going to try to correct that by hitting some jewelers this weekend...But then again, I don''t like jerking people around. I''m just going to go to those places to help educate myself...I''m not going to buy from them. And as a sales guy, I appreciate their time and don''t want to take advantage of them. I guess I''ll just have to suck that up and do what''s best for me and my girl...

Thanks again!!

 

[chrono]

Oh Reena, the last one with the oval center and 2 blue round sapphires are beautiful.

CEP,
I''m particular with my sapphire sidestones. I had to do extensive research on it and practically drove my vendor crazy to determine exactly which hue and saturation I liked best. The sapphires were what made the right just right (of course the center stones counted too!)

 

[reena]

first, what do you think of the settings i posted????

anyway, i have a 2 carat stone, so i''m not going to tell you that i think 2 carats would be gaudy or "too much". however, i DO think that quality is more important than size, and if your budget is $8k then i think you''re better off with a well-cut 1.5 carat stone than with what you could get for that amount in the 2 carat range. and yes, IMO 1.5 carats is a GREAT size and it will likely look very substantial on her finger (especially with the sapphire sidestones). what size is her finger?

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 10:57:53 AM
Author: reena
this one is PERFECT! i''m telling you, nobody is not going to like this ring:

Reena...Thanks so much for the pics!!

Please tell me...This ring is very traditional...Meaning, no extras like the setting I''ve chosen so far. So...Would yours be a "Safer" pick?

Also...And another curve here...

I only picked the blue sapphires for two reasons...

That ring caught my eye AND when I found out it was my birthstone, it just made sense.

But...

This girl is NUTS about the color purple...And I DO mean NUTS! So...How hard is it (And do I have enough time and resourse considering my remote location) to get purple sapphires?? Any idea?

 

[chrono]

The ring you and Reena posted is very safe. May be considered traditional by some but I think it is elegant and a 3 stone ring isn't traditional to me.

There are great purple sapphires, so so and poor ones. What I would do is find out exactly which shade and saturation of purple is what you/she would like best. You can go here to learn more about coloured gemstones:
http://www.awesomegems.com/

What I did was pick a vendor, told him in detail what I wanted and waited for him to find it. He then sent the stones to me to okay it or decide it wasn't what I'm looking for.

http://www.awesomegems.com/gemfacts.html#top

 

[reena]

i think it's simpler and classic and therefore much, much more safe. plus it looks a lot more elegant (and expensive!) IMO. i just think the other setting is less universally appealling. but what do i know? what do others think?

i don't know much about ovals but here are a few for your consideration that i found on the pricescope search engine:

http://www.abazias.com/database/rapinfo.asp?stock=4149655&flag=pse: 1.54 H VS2 from abazias, $8148 with pricescope discount

http://www.uniondiamond.com/diamonds/diamond_details.php?itemid=32152&network_id=0cf05810a0f83094f6e9972ef21cdd34: 1.53 H VS2 from union diamond; $7820 with pricescope discount

http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?pid=LD00215796 1.51 H VS2 from blue nile; $8268 with pricescope discount.

there are many others; you can run a search on the pricescope homepage.

i personally think purple sapphires might be a bit "much" on an e-ring that she's going to wear every day, but what the hell do i know.

 

[chrono]

Reena, I wear my diamond and sapphire ring ring everyday and it isn''t too much for me.

Ouch!

 

[Plainsman]

Also, just because you can spend $8000 doesn''t mean you have to.

For what it''s worth, I love ovals and to be honest with you I think they look bigger than they actually say. Meaning in my ex''s ring I she had a .78 oval and I looked as large as 1ct rounds, so keep that in mind. I think the 1.5ct you are asking about is a perfect size.

Like many have already said I would start looking at other aspects like cut & color.

 

[reena]

chrono, your sapphires are purple? i thought they were regular sapphires. in that case i must be thinking of something entirely different because think your ring is gorgeous. i guess i was envisioning a fancy purple like you see with a purple diamond.

 

[chrono]

My sapphires are blue with a hint of lavender, hence the vB6/5 rating of violetish blue with medium dark hue and strong saturation. Oh, I could just stare at them all day. I think purple sapphires would be very pretty too.

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Thanks again to all for the feedback!!

Reena...I''m all over the search engine here. I''ve not found anything even CLOSE to be as handy as that!!

As for the purple thing...

I am telling you, this chick is NUTS for purple!! Purple car, purple furniture, LOTS of purple clothes. She just found a pair of purple dress shoes the other day. Hell...Her password contains "Purple".

I''m thankful for two things...

I like purple.

She''s not tacky with it (Believe it or not).


I do think, if I can find the right shade, and keep the stones small enough (Just something that gets purple into the equasion) that she might be even MORE tickled when she gets this.

Although I think she might like the idea of my birthstone being sapphire blue too...

 

[valeria101]

Date: 10/28/2004 11:13

5 AM
Author: Christmas Eve Proposer


How hard is it (And do I have enough time and resourse considering my remote location) to get purple sapphires?? Any idea?

A pair of fine purple sapphire does not stryke me as very usual, but your location should not affect choices too much. Usually, the jeweler who makes the setting should source side stones for you. If you do not find someone willing to provide, there's always the web.

As for the classic setting, I second Reena on this - unless you know for sure what your girl might want, a nicely made traditional does not fail to impress. Besides, with reasonably large three stones, there isn't a whole lot of room for intricate setting - all you'll see face up is sapphire - diamond - sapphire.

Speaking of purple, there are two rings with channel set purple sapphire down here:

. I can easily imagine a large diamond set somewhat alike. This comes from Jewelryexpert.com, just like Reena's.

 

[reena]

oh, well in any event i i love sapphires and i think they look great with diamonds in an e-ring. (i've seen yours and i can see why you love to stare at is!

) however, when CEP said purple sapphire i was imagining a color more like these:

which i also think is pretty, but a little riskier if he doesn't know exactly what she wants....
but hey, like i said, what the hell do i know . . . .

edited to add: okay CEP, sounds like this girl really DOES love purple! so, go for it!

 

[Christmas Eve Proposer]

Date: 10/28/2004 11:48:24 AM
Author: reena
oh, well in any event i i love sapphires and i think they look great with diamonds in an e-ring. (i''ve seen yours and i can see why you love to stare at is!

) however, when CEP said purple sapphire i was imagining a color more like these:

which i also think is pretty, but a little riskier if he doesn''t know exactly what she wants....
but hey, like i said, what the hell do i know . . . .

edited to add: okay CEP, sounds like this girl really DOES love purple! so, go for it!

Reena...

I think that is absolutely the EXACT purple she would like!! I''ll use this as a reference.