Should I ask my boyfriend to marry me (story/poll)?

[Beansy]

Hey guys,

I''ve been hanging around for a few months, and feel that I''ve come to know some of you. I would like everyone''s honest opinion, guys and girls alike as to what I should do.

My story (in a short). I''ve been dating the boy for over 6 yrs. We met in New Orleans, I moved from Nebraska to live with him in Florida, and the rest is history. We have a kitten named "Beansy" thus the alius, and we plan to grow old together. The question is now when are we going to make it final? There has been several years of finishing school, and putting our ducks in a row, but now they''re lined up, and still no proposal.

He has been dancing and skirting around the issue for long enough, and I''m growing antsy. He adores planes, and there is a place here in St. Pete where you can take a private plane ride over Tampa bay. I know exactly what ring HE wants (the streamerica from Tiffany''s) and am tempted a bit to just buy it, and propose to him while on a romantic plane ride.

But at the same time, I want him to do it, call me old fashioned. Now that I''ve poured my heart out, what do you all think? Should I wait for the movie ending, or do I need to take the bull by the horn and do it myself? Thanks for the replies, everyone.

 

[XvvOrlyBearvvX]

If you really want him to purpose why dont you drop some major hints about wanting to be married already. Or maybe just tell his best friend to be like: when are you going to ask her to marry you?? Hopefully he will get going...

 

[Mikesgirl]

So what happens if he says no?

Granted, I'm old (fashioned), but in my experience men who commit are less likely to quit. A man who feels pressured into marriage might make the leap to avoid losing you, but will forever question whether he did the right thing. That being said, there are always exceptions, and your man may be one. So why the need to get married? Security? Children? Health Insurance? If he's the one, stick with him and be patient. If you're feeling used, move on. Give him enough room and let him make a choice. But my opinion is - let him do the asking.

Gentlemen - opinions please.

 

[Wacky]

Let him do the asking... It sounds like he's having his cake and eating it too. Might be awhile.

Wacky

 

[phoenixgirl]

My boyfriend and I are going on five years. I'm only 23 (he's 25), so I don't feel like we're in a rush, but I know how you feel. I don't think you should entirely rule out proposing to him.




You want to get married to him now. I think that proposing yourself is better than nagging him. If you do something special and romantic and make him make a decision, it might be the impetus he needs. If you nag him and whine, he'll cling to his technical bachelorhood all the more. Of course, he might say no or maybe or what the . . . ? Maybe he'll say no/maybe but then propose a month later once he's had time to adjust. I just feel like you going to all that trouble and making the leap yourself has a greater chance of making him "come around" than you dropping hints all over the place. Or, give him an ultimatum. I told my bf recently that if I turn 25 and we are still where we are now (meaning not married, engaged, or at least ring shopping), I'm going to propose to him. And if he doesn't say yes, I'll dump him. I feel like a year and a half notice is more than enough.

Anyway, good luck and let us know how it ends up.

 

[lovesparkles]

Hi Beansy,
What does he say when you talk about getting married? I'd think that gives you an idea of if he's not ready, if he's ready but not planning anything right now, or if maybe he's already planning something!

So what's he saying?
-lovesparkles

 

[glitterata]

You need to talk to him about your future together.

Does he want to get married, but just not yet? Does he want to get married, but just not to you? Does he want to stay with you forever, but never get married? Does he want to stay with you for a while longer, and then break up?

What about you? Are you willing to go on living together without being married forever? Do you feel so strongly about marriage that you're willing to break up with him if he won't marry you? If you feel marriage is a must, how long are you willing to wait for him to decide whether he'll marry you? Are you with him because you really want HIM, or are you afraid you won't find someone else you like better?

Unless you can agree on common goals, one of you is likely to feel dissatisfied.

Nowadays, the ritual of proposing and presenting a ring usually happens when both members of the couple agree that they want to get married. Therefore, offering a ring to someone who seems NOT to want to could seem almost hostile. That's especially the case when the woman's the one doing the proposing--some men would take that to mean you don't think he's up to doing his job as a man.

Being clear with yourself about what you want and what you're willing to sacrifice to get it will make it more likely that you meet your ultimate goals, whether that means you wait for him to be ready or even that you end up married to someone else who WANTS to marry you.

 

[Hest88]

I pretty much want to echo what everyone else said. If you're sure he wants to marry you and just hasn't gotten his act together yet, AND you know it won't be a blow to his ego, a proposal can be quite romantic. (For all you know, he's dancing around the issue because he's planning a surprise.)

If though, he's really reluctant to take that next step, pushing the issue might end up backfiring.

 

[Beansy]

Wow, you guys. Thanks for all the input. Yes, there are a lot of questions to be answered on both parts, but to make it really simple, we do both want to be together, I am just having a harder time understanding what the hold up is on the finalization?

Here is the good news to all, though. We JUST got back from the mall, and he took me into a B and M instigating it himself. Granted, we are going to be buying off the internet, my months of research has afforded me the luxery of at least knowing that much, but he still did it.

When the saleslady asked when we would be getting engaged, I let him answer the question, he said he "hoped to have the stone by March/04." This is something he has mentioned before, March/04, so a lot of you maybe right...he might have something up his sleve. This just so happens to be our anniversary as well. I get the feeling that you guys out there go to great lengths to throw off a girl. And if this is a game, he has got me good.

I feel much better about the whole thing, but I wanted to say thank you so much all for responding, and so quickly. It really means a lot to me that you took the time to help think this through for me, and some of you have really great perspectives. I am going to hold off a bit, wait to see what transpires over the next few months, and then go from there. After all, it's been over 6yrs, I can wait a bit more. I am also waiting for that isee2 square Jonathan has in store anyway, so there is time. The minute anything happens, you all will be the first to know. Thanks again all.

 

[innerkitten]

I haven't even read the other replies yet and I'm ready to give you mine already, I think you should ask him when you two are going to get married yes.
You have been together for six years which is a long time and it can't hurt to ask

I had to give a little push with my boyfriend.Sometimes people need it.

 

[Mara]

Ha ha maybe he is on the FORUM and you don't even know it!! Maybe he is one of the people you have been giving advice to..wouldn't that be hilarious? Ahh what a story.




Anyway--does he know you are doing research right now? My two cents are wait for him...guys are slow movers for the most part...I had to wait and wait for my guy before he finally GOT THE CLUE that he wanted me around forever. But eventually he got there. So patience is a virtue I guess. I did drop the hints though and instigate the whole...'do you see this as a future' thing so that he knew I wasn't just killing time with him. I also did the whole 'you know 30 is just around the corner' thing to let him know that psycho-ness was just around the corner too if he didn't get off his butt!

He's 35 - typical bachelor late bloomer...




Oh and you know what would be a great idea I think...is that since you know he is dropping the hints and/or shopping around (and you don't really know what he has up his sleeve, maybe it will be xmas and you think it's going to be March!)--why don't you get the Streamerica ring anyway for him...and keep it. Then when he busts out and proposes, you can give his ring to him and let him know you have been holding onto it until he was ready! That would be very sweet.

 

[jenibear]

I have a very different opinion on this matter. I guess there are some things I am not old fashioned about. I wish I had proposed to my boyfriend months ago. He would have said yes. We have been talking about getting married for two years (we've been together 4 1/2)
We started ring shopping - well I started ring shopping at his request - last month and are now having a ring made. He plans to propose after it's done at some later date I don't know about. Despite this we are already actively planning our wedding, which we hope to have next year (a year to this day - Sept. 25) And believe me he is totally part of the planning, going on theknot.com to check out tuxs and reception sites without me suggesting. He's already written his vows!
The long and the short of it is he's a man and as men are they want all their ducks in a row before they propose. A silly way to live life - I think - because the ducks will never be in a row - ever.
So I wish I would have proposed long ago in March so we could be officially engaged - we're all backward now. He could have always re-proposed once we had the ring.
So if my rambling makes any sense, I am saying that women should feel empowered enough to propose as long as they know its right. I wish I had.
Jenibear

 

[KittySkyfish]

Hi Beansy! I'm just right up the road from you in Largo, FL!

If your boyfriend of six years took you into a store to look at e-rings, then you have every right to talk to him about your married future together. This is your life and time investment; find out what his hold-ups are. The reason(s) why he's been hesitant to marry you *may* induce a big blow-up, and for that reason he may never admit them to your face. Anyhow, be very observant of his behaviors because his actions are as important as what he says.

Please take care, and good luck!

 

[Hushpuppy69]

Know the feeling girls. My boyfriend and I have be together a year and a half now and living together for a year. I'm 20 and he's 23-age is just a number anyways. He's stuck on not getting married until he's twenty-eight. I seriously asked him a month ago-no ring or anything and he didn't say no, but he said he needed more time. We've been through hell together and I don't need anymore time. I can't stand it. I've planned a romantic get away for us next month and I plan to ask him again. If I get some BS answer again he's gone. Any thoughts on this from anyone?

 

[Mara]

Hush...at the risk of sounding like some older person trying to give you advice (well not so much older but anyway)....I would suggest just stopping and taking a breather. Age may just be a number, but I cannot tell you how different I am now at age 29 than I was at age 20 or 23 or 25 or 27. I have alot of older friends that as they were hitting their 30's told me that they felt like completely different people from even 5 years ago. Even up until a year or two ago I thought..'how different are you really in a few years? Don't give me that bull.' Let me tell you...TONS. I'm not saying don't get married young, but just don't rush into it. You have only been with your boyfriend for a year and a half--that is hardly a lifetime, esp at your ages. Give him the time he says he needs. You do not want to rush someone into a decision. Take heart that he didn't say no, BUT that he needs more time. Sounds like he doesn't have a problem communicating what he needs, now it's up to you to decide if you can give that to him.




One thing that my fiance has said to me in the past whenever I tried to bring 'the future' up (and of course I did because I'm a typical impatient chick), 'Shouldn't we just be having fun right now?'. He said that for 2 years, and at that point I thought....NO this is not just fun anymore--when do you get serious?...but I hung in there as hard as it was, and it paid off. Sometimes people just move at a slower pace. I also caution you on waiting, because when I was younger I was in a serious relationship (from 22-25) and we were thinking of marriage...thank GOD we didn't get married. He was a great guy but just not the one for me...20/20 hindsight years later. This is where I disagree with your signature...when I was younger I may have said the same thing you did--but I realize you can live without ANYONE if you have to...if someone leaves you don't just curl up and die. And being able to live in harmony with the man you marry is very important. It's not just about passion and fire and volatility and 'I can't live without you'...that fades....and then you have to have something else to bond you both for the rest of your lives.




Anyway enough of my 'I'm almost 30' soapboxing....but I just would be more patient...and let him find his own way. You don't want to push him and at your ages...you really don't need to. If you said you'd been together 5 years and you were 29 with him still balking, then I would say to light a fire under him....but you two should still be having fun and just living it up--there's enough time for serious life crap later!

My two cents...just relax...and enjoy your time together.

 

[Arlington]

I agree with Mara. From this male's perspective, I can say that it's more than just annoying to be pestered about getting married. I've known I was going to marry my girlfriend of nearly three years now for a very long time...but it's only now that I've been able to get to the point where I was able to buy the ring I wanted and am emotionally ready to pop the ole' question.

While my girlfriend hasn't been demanding, one might say she's been a little impatient (I guess like you, Mara). I've had a blast searching and buying a diamond and setting...but when she starts to ask about when we are going to get married it almost makes me want to hold off even longer before I give it to her. Why? Because even though I know I want to get married, and I know she wants to get married, I don't ever want there to be a question in either of our minds regarding why I proposed. In other words, I want her to ALWAYS know I proposed to her because I wanted to, not because she asked me one too many times!

She thinks I'm off watching football or something all the time. Little does she know I've been reading Pricescope since last year!

Give him some time! If you are happy together, then why is it so important you get married RIGHT THIS SECOND? If you aren't happy together, then DON"T GET MARRIED AT ALL!

Just my 2 cents. I'm now covering my face and waiting for the flames to come.

 

[mike04456]

No flames from this direction. I agree 100% with everything you and Mara said.




Men who feel pressured into getting married either split (beforehand) or get divorced (afterward).

 

[mike04456]

Whoops--meant to edit that last one instead of posting a blank form.

Anyway: I can understand where hushpuppy's boyfriend is coming from, not wanting to get married until some fixed date in the future. When I first met my wife, I didn't want to get married at all and didn't really see it happening until I was in my 30s. But gradually I came around, though it took a few years. I met her at 22, we got married at 25. Marriage isn't something to be rushed into, no matter what age you are. Some men do need a kick in the butt to realize they need to move forward in life--which is why the old ultimatum often works--but it has to happen at a point where he honestly does need to move forward. I don't really see it in this case. Eighteen months really isn't that long; as Mara said 5 years at 29 would be a different story.

 

[canadiangrrl]

What you're describing are relationships between people who have different agendas. If one party wants to get married, and the other doesn't, then you have a vastly different set of expectations vis-a-vis your relationship. Expectations aren't always static and often change & evolve over time, but in many cases, the person who wants more ends up with the short end of the stick. Or, as Lawgem says, they end up married to someone who's not sure they really want to be there. Not a recipe for long-term happiness.

I was married at the age of 21. I was truly in love, and I never thought I'd end up getting divorced. But - as Mara so rightly pointed out - I'm not the same person I was back then. Your early/mid-twenties are a time for huge growth, with all its incumbent changes. I realize that opinions will differ on this, but I would seldom advise anyone in this day and age to get married in their early twenties. That's a holdover from an era when life expectancy was only 45-55 years...

The older I grow, the simpler things get (for the most part.)

If it's not there - don't force it. If it's there and it's going to take some time - don't force it. And the one true thing I've learned about relationships is this...they're tough enough to make work when both parties want to be there - and they're damn near impossible to navigate when one party doesn't.

Just some food for thought. In the immortal words of Robert Zimmerman..."but I was so much older then/I'm younger than that now"

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/1/2003 9:07:47 PM LawGem wrote:

Whoops--meant to edit that last one instead of posting a blank form.

Anyway: I can understand where hushpuppy's boyfriend is coming from, not wanting to get married until some fixed date in the future. When I first met my wife, I didn't want to get married at all and didn't really see it happening until I was in my 30s. But gradually I came around, though it took a few years. I met her at 22, we got married at 25. Marriage isn't something to be rushed into, no matter what age you are. Some men do need a kick in the butt to realize they need to move forward in life--which is why the old ultimatum often works--but it has to happen at a point where he honestly does need to move forward. I don't really see it in this case. Eighteen months really isn't that long; as Mara said 5 years at 29 would be a different story.

----------------

Funny, while I agree with everything you wrote, I have a different take. I'm a very monogomous person by heart. I knew I wanted to get married eventually to the right person. When my now hubby & I were starting to become serious, he proclaimed that he wasn't going to get married until he was 30 (22 at the time). From that proclaimation, I *knew* he was in love. I told him that I wasn't the girl for him because I'm not going to invest prime years of my life in a relationship w/ no permanent commitment. I never bugged him; but, I was serious. He proposed 6 months later.

As for being different at 30 - OH YEAH!!!! Your parents all of a sudden become *very* smart. You all of a sudden realize that there are others in the world. Stuff you thought was *so* important become irrelavent.

That said, I would marry the same man in my 20's (which I did), in my 30's & in my 40's. I would imagine in every decade to come. There's something about growing old together. Like a diamond, there are many facets to life. Taking the cutting of these facets together is pretty fun. In a successful marriage, you grow and your respective spouse appreciates & encourages this growth. So, at the end of the day, I don't think the age when one becomes marrried has anything to do with the "success". Funny, all my life long friends were married within 1.5 years of each other. We were all 23-25 years old. *ALL* of us are still married.

I'm not the same person I was in my 20's (thank God). But, my core values & basic personality hasn't changed. Neither has my husband's of 20 years.

OH, and by the way, all the quirks become more exagerated with age. Make sure you can live with those quirks.

IMHO, with my life experience, I would not wait for any man. If he's not ready to commit at 25, he's not going to commit at 30. Provided you have been dating 2+ years and you want to get married.

 

[Hest88]

Hushpuppy69, I'm afraid I have to agree with the majority. You've only been with him a year and a half. There is no hurry. You also don't want to look back and think you've forced him to marry against his will, as opposed to him coming to you because he loves you more than anyone else on earth.

 

[aljdewey]

I strongly agree with the majority.....don't, don't, don't propose.




Some people are very successful getting married younger (F&I and others), but I do agree with the majority that age does tend to change one's perspective on things. The person I am to live with today is much more laid back about the little things than the person I was when I was 20/25/30. Age brings much clarity about what really matters, and no matter how mature one is at 20/22/25, there is no substitute for time/experience.




I completely disagree with the notion that "if he's not ready at 25, he won't be ready at 30." Not everyone who is gun-shy of marriage at 25 is commitment-phobic......granted, some are, but some are not. It's not about a number, it's a state of mind......there's a huge difference between not being ready to marry YET and not being ready to marry AT ALL, and I think that most people who married young don't appreciate that the same way because their choices are already made.




Simply put......kudos to those who were "ready" early, but not everyone is on the same schedule, and some people take longer to arrive at that point. It's all about individual journey. Before a person is ready (especially men), the perception of marriage is: crushing responsibility, end of independence, restriction of freedom, being tied down by wife/kids. Once a person is ready, their perception of marriage is: stability, support, partnership, desire for children, desire to build a life/family.




I wasn't ready to buy a house in my late 20s for the same reason....crushing responsibility, an end to my whimsical travel, and the commitment of a house meant a change in my lifestyle. Now that I'm ready, the lifestyle change is a positive thing, and I see that commitment differently.




Beansy, in my opinion, it's certainly appropriate to ask if he still sees this moving toward a permanent commitment and what he feels his timeline is, and to let him know how you're feeling about the time invested so far.




Hushpuppy, it's certainly appropriate to ask where he sees this going, and whether or not he sees this leading to something permanent. As F&I points out, there's no point investing time with someone who isn't moving in the same direction you are.




BUT.....everyone comes to being "ready" on their own time, and just because you are ready doesn't mean he is. You can't control that....you can only look at what you can live with for a timeline, and make your choices from there. Are you willing to stick around in hopes that he'll be ready at some future point, or do you need NOW something more permanent than he can offer? All you can is be honest with how you're feeling about it, listen to how he's feeling about it, and then decide what will make you most happy.




Hushpuppy....you wrote: "he didn't say no, but he said he needed more time. We've been through hell together and I don't need anymore time. I can't stand it. ....I plan to ask him again. If I get some BS answer again he's gone."




My reply: If that's how you see it, then perhaps you're not right for each other. I don't think being honest in saying I need more time is a BS answer, and if you think it is, then perhaps this isn't the right fit. He's supposed to be ready because *you* don't need anymore time? Unfortunately, that's seldom how it works. Read the responses above...in the overwhelming majority of instances, one person is ready before the other is in a relationship. If you "can't live without" someone, then you should be able to give them a bit of slack, and if you can't, perhaps it's not meant to be.




Just my humble opinions.

 

[magna2]

This pertains to both Beansy and Hushpuppy69...

There are men who just do not want to be tied down in a relationship. Only you can tell whether your boyfriend is one of those men.

Somewhere along I have heard about some study that stated that the longer a relationship progresses the less chance of the couple marrying. I believe it stated that typically a man will know whether he'll marry the woman that he is with within 1 to 2 years of the relationship. If after two years and no proposal forthcoming, each year that passes the chances of it happening diminishes.

But if your boyfriend seem hesitant about marriage, you also need to ask why you want to marry that person and are so anxious that it causes you to question the relationship that you have now. Is the desire to marry the result of your strong believe in the institution of "marriage" or some other underlying reason??

If your boyfriend is truely into marrying you they will come around and propose. Until then there is no sense giving the guy an ultimatum because chances are that he'll not appreciate it and cause friction or worse he'll just pack up and leave. However this does not mean that you should not be able to discuss your relationship openly and get a feel for the land.

 

[Mara]

With my late bloomer boyfriend (now fiance), I really had to tread carefully. He didn't get to age 34 and not be married for no reason at all. He had some committment issues, we all have our issues, some of which we don't want to communicate with others. I definitely was not ready to get married when I was young, nor was my fiance, quite obivously...we each needed our own time and space with others to ready us for each other.

I look at the guys I dated as practice as were his ex girlfriends. Each one added something to who I am and who he is today--ready to be with each other.




I also think that alot of relationships are all about timing. It sounds scary to those who are romantics..and think that people are meant to be....but I think that if the 'right person' comes along and the other person is not ready....and they can't manage to connect...then that's the wrong person for the wrong time. Maybe the right person for 5 years later or 5 years before, but not for that time. That same person comes along 5 years later, and things click, they stay together. Weird to think of it that way, but I think it definitely pans out that way. It really depends on the two people, how they click, their levels of 'readiness'.




When working with my guy, I let him know that I was not trying to get him to commit to me on the spot. I just wanted to know that YES he could see me as the one. I wanted to know that I hadn't been ruled out. I wanted to let him know that I was not just killing time with him. Anything beyond wasn't necessary for me to know yet. He definitely had that whole 'I want to be at X in life before I commit.' I think I finally got through to him over time to let him know that just because he wasn't exactly where he wanted to be in life yet when he got married did not have to be a detriment to his goals--we could make that journey together. Slow and steady wins the race!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/2/2003 3:17:04 PM aljdewey wrote:



I strongly agree with the majority.....don't, don't, don't propose.


I completely disagree with the notion that 'if he's not ready at 25, he won't be ready at 30.' Not everyone who is gun-shy of marriage at 25 is commitment-phobic......granted, some are, but some are not.
Just my humble opinions.
----------------

Actually Al, it's a statistic. One I lived through over and over again with some girlfriends & boy*friends (boys who are friends).

 

[Mara]

There is a statistic that says that guys who aren't ready to marry at 25 won't be ready at 30? I totally don't agree with that. As I have seen my friends age and mature...I see many who were not ready a few years ago who are getting ready now. Part of it is just maturity and willingness to take on the responsibility of marriage. Some people are just late bloomers..you have to account for that. Some people are REALLY late bloomers like my sweetie.

I think that it really has more to do with who these people are with at 25 and how insync they are together. If they have not found the right person for them at that time....they won't be ready. If they still havent found the right person for the right time at age 30...again they won't be ready. F&I found hers early, some others do too. But I think the majority of people are waiting longer....our photographer was just telling us how the % of couples in their 30's getting married now (and using their services) is very high, not as many young couples...and that couples are also booking out farther in advance, 2 years as opposed to 6mo/1year as it was a few years back.




Interesting how the trends change!

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/1/2003 8:28:01 PM Arlington wrote:

From this male's perspective, I can say that it's more than just annoying to be pestered about getting married.

----------------

Why did this crack me up? What is it with you males? Why are men more commitment challenged? I suppose if I knew the answer to those questions, I'd have my own TV Show on relationships & the male psychque.

Why do women usually want to get married first? Why do women hint & sometimes pester? My only thought is that perhaps because it is out of our control. Why should it be? Maybe we are more inclined to nesting.

At the end of the day, Hushpuppy, 20 is very young. Both hubby & I had been through one serious relationship before. We were both out of college. I was in the work force. We were both confirmed "batchelor & bachelorette" prior to meeting each other. Both of us came with quite a bit of life experiences through family circumstances.

 

[aljdewey]

On 10/2/2003 4:05:50 PM fire&ice wrote:





Actually Al, it's a statistic. One I lived through over and over again with some girlfriends & boy*friends (boys who are friends).

----------------


Typically, statistics bear percentages....i.e., "89% of the time, a person unwilling to commit at 25 is unwilling to commit at 30 or ever." I didn't see any percentages quoted, and I'm fairly certain that it's not true 100% of the time, which was my point.




Notion, statistic.....call it whatever you will, F&I. That doesn't make it true in every instance. Not *every* person who won't commit at 25 is unwilling to commit ever.




I acknowledge that it happens in some instances (which accounts for your "over and over" again experiences)......it is indeed true that SOME people who aren't ready at 25 will not be ready at 30, 35, 40, ever.




It is patently *not* the case in every instance.....some people are just not ready earlier in life and are ready later. And I have plenty of real-world experience (self and multitude of friends) to back that up as well.

 

[canadiangrrl]

As hard as this may be to swallow...there's a difference between "I don't want to get married" and "I don't want to marry you." I think that guys sometimes use the former when they really mean the latter. I think what F&I is trying to say (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that someone who doesn't want to marry you at 25 likely won't want to marry you at 30.

My question is this - why would you want to marry someone who doesn't want to marry you?

 

[fire&ice]

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On 10/2/2003 3:55:50 PM Mara wrote:

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Mara, that is the truth. Pure & simple. Timing was absolutely right for me & hubby. If you read up, you will see the situation was ripe for us to end up together.

Also, regarding the statistic - I read down & Magna worded it much better. The statistic is that past a certain point of being together the chances of a marriage proposal diminishes. And usually, if one happens it has been a fish or cut bait situation.