Spess v. orange sapphire?

[beaujolais]

How would you compare an orange sapphire to a spess? Which has a better R.I.? Price? Easier to find?

Thanks.

Oh, Chrono, I love that AJS one you helped Lauren with. You are quite the finder of great stones !

 

[chrono]

Sonoma,
The two are very close in terms of RI as seen in this chart:
http://www.robinwood.com/Catalog/Technical/Gen3DTuts/Gen3DPages/RefractionIndexList.html

Assuming that the colours are comparable, price wise, the sapphire will most likely cost more but also be easier to find. And you probably already know that the sapphire will also hold up better in the long run.

Thanks w/regards to Lauren''s spess. I''m just happy that it turned out well.

 

[beaujolais]

--- Thanks w/regards to Lauren's spess. I'm just happy that it turned out well. ---

Um, you have a gift/tallent.

Thanks for the reply.

Great chart. I just printed that for my files.

 

[morecarats]

A lot of the orange sapphires you''ll find in the market have been lattice diffused with beryllium to achieve the bright orange color. Natural orange sapphires do exist, but they are not easy to find, and will definitely be more expensive than an untreated spessartite garnet.

The refractive index of spessartite garnet (1.79 - 1.82) is very similar to sapphire (1.762 - 1.77. You''ll be able to find larger sizes in spessartite, and will find a much greater selection of stones to consider. I think spessartite is an outstanding value in today''s market, and there is an interesting range of colors to choose from (so long as you like orange or red-orange).

Though both spessartite and orange sapphire have excellent brilliance, they do have quite a different look since garnet is singly refractive.

 

[beaujolais]

Oh, I didn't realize spess is a double refractive !

How are you all liking that in your spessarites?

(Note, I'm not really fond of calling it "spess", that seems a little - I don't know - too casual, slacking . . . I'm just using it because it's quicker to type that spessarite.

.)

---

I'm not fond of red in spessarite but am more accepting of a touch of brown or yellow.

What a great stone for fall wear.

 

[morecarats]

Date: 10/13/2009 9:14:02 AM
Author: sonomacounty
Oh, I didn''t realize spess is a double refractive !

How are you all liking that in your spessarites?

(Note, I''m not really fond of calling it ''spess'', that seems a little - I don''t know - too casual, slacking . . . I''m just using it because it''s quicker to type that spessarite.

.)

---

I''m not fond of red in spessarite but am more accepting of a touch of brown or yellow.

What a great stone for fall wear.

Maybe I wasn''t clear, but all the garnets (including spessartite) are singly refractive.

 

[artemiss]

I personally like how fiery the spessartites are...and unless you are looking for an everyday ring that will wear well, it seems that you could get a lot more bang for your buck with the spess as well.

 

[chrono]

I’m definitely more in favour of spessartites as well. Extremely bright, lively and you get a lot of stone for what you pay compared to sapphires, not to mention no worries about treatment since there is currently no treatments done on garnets.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/13/2009 9:00:39 AM
Author: morecarats
A lot of the orange sapphires you'll find in the market have been lattice diffused with beryllium to achieve the bright orange color. Natural orange sapphires do exist, but they are not easy to find, and will definitely be more expensive than an untreated spessartite garnet.

The refractive index of spessartite garnet (1.79 - 1.82) is very similar to sapphire (1.762 - 1.77. You'll be able to find larger sizes in spessartite, and will find a much greater selection of stones to consider. I think spessartite is an outstanding value in today's market, and there is an interesting range of colors to choose from (so long as you like orange or red-orange).

Though both spessartite and orange sapphire have excellent brilliance, they do have quite a different look since garnet is singly refractive.

Ditto

If you can find a true mandarin orange spessartite, it's really a beautiful thing to behold. Pictures just don't do it justice, and I rather have that then a sapphire, which in terms of price for a very very rare natural untreated orange stone is very very pricey. We're talking several thousand a carat here vs maybe $500/ct for a top orange mandarin garnet of say 3 carats. Also sapphire is so dense (the thing I HATE the most about sapphires) is that a one carat stone will look like a half carat in almost any other gem species. Not a lot of bang for your buck. The next best orange stone, imho, is mandarin/fanta orange spessartite garnet. Fire opals are a nice orange stone as well, but can be very sleepy, low RI (less sparkle), and they're not very durable.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/13/2009 10:43:38 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover


If you can find a true mandarin orange spessartite, it''s really a beautiful thing to behold. Pictures just don''t do it justice, and I rather have that then a sapphire, which in terms of price for a very very rare natural untreated orange stone is very very pricey. We''re talking several thousand a carat here vs maybe $500/ct for a top orange mandarin garnet of say 3 carats. Also sapphire is so dense (the thing I HATE the most about sapphires) is that a one carat stone will look like a half carat in almost any other gem species. Not a lot of bang for your buck.

TL,
just on the density of sapphire thing - I see you say this quite alot.
Admittedly, I have not compared sapphires to lots of other species - but in my travels, at least when compared to diamonds, you are only speaking a difference of 1 to 2mm in the same style cut and ct weight - not the extreme differences of half ct extra "loss" that you speak of.

In the above description, are you speaking strictly on a sapphire vs garnet basis?

 

[T L]

Date: 10/13/2009 11:36:20 AM
Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/13/2009 10:43:38 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover


If you can find a true mandarin orange spessartite, it's really a beautiful thing to behold. Pictures just don't do it justice, and I rather have that then a sapphire, which in terms of price for a very very rare natural untreated orange stone is very very pricey. We're talking several thousand a carat here vs maybe $500/ct for a top orange mandarin garnet of say 3 carats. Also sapphire is so dense (the thing I HATE the most about sapphires) is that a one carat stone will look like a half carat in almost any other gem species. Not a lot of bang for your buck.

TL,
just on the density of sapphire thing - I see you say this quite alot.
Admittedly, I have not compared sapphires to lots of other species - but in my travels, at least when compared to diamonds, you are only speaking a difference of 1 to 2mm in the same style cut and ct weight - not the extreme differences of half ct extra 'loss' that you speak of.

In the above description, are you speaking strictly on a sapphire vs garnet basis?

Diamonds and spinels are very dense as well (not as dense as sapphires), but most other species of gems, like garnets, tourmaline, I see quite a significant difference. I think beryls are a good buy because they are so non-dense. I should have been more specific AJJ. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 10/13/2009 11:39:01 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/13/2009 11:36:20 AM

Author: arjunajane

Date: 10/13/2009 10:43:38 AM

Author: tourmaline_lover



If you can find a true mandarin orange spessartite, it''s really a beautiful thing to behold. Pictures just don''t do it justice, and I rather have that then a sapphire, which in terms of price for a very very rare natural untreated orange stone is very very pricey. We''re talking several thousand a carat here vs maybe $500/ct for a top orange mandarin garnet of say 3 carats. Also sapphire is so dense (the thing I HATE the most about sapphires) is that a one carat stone will look like a half carat in almost any other gem species. Not a lot of bang for your buck.

TL,

just on the density of sapphire thing - I see you say this quite alot.

Admittedly, I have not compared sapphires to lots of other species - but in my travels, at least when compared to diamonds, you are only speaking a difference of 1 to 2mm in the same style cut and ct weight - not the extreme differences of half ct extra ''loss'' that you speak of.


In the above description, are you speaking strictly on a sapphire vs garnet basis?

Diamonds and spinels are very dense as well (not as dense as sapphires), but most other species of gems, like garnets, tourmaline, I see quite a significant difference. I think beryls are a good buy because they are so non-dense. I should have been more specific AJJ. Thanks for pointing that out.

That''s okay, thanks for clarifying

 

[ma re]

Everything has been pretty much said, so I can only repeat that untreated orange sapphire is very rare and equally expensive. Single refractivity will make spessartite have a "sharper sparkle" (more distinctive brilliance), although both will be very lively and scintillating due to high R.I.''s (assuming they''ve been decently cut). They''re also exactly the same density (sorry TL

). Also, I may be wrong, but I''m under the impression that shades of orange found in spessartites are brighter than those found in sapphires. Not that there''s anything wrong with either, but colors of sapphires will be somewhat subdued and gentle (like those seen in nice sunsets), while top colors of spess are not for the faint-hearted (more like lava, almost like a neon sign

).

 

[LaurenThePartier]

I''m curious - does anyone on PS have an untreated orange sapphire? I can''t recall ever seeing one . . .

 

[Gailey]

Date: 10/13/2009 12:56:28 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier
I''m curious - does anyone on PS have an untreated orange sapphire? I can''t recall ever seeing one . . .

Never mind the un-treated ones, I''d even be happy to see a few more treated ones for sale. I only ever see orange ones in those hideous rainbow sapphire pieces. Where are the loose ones?

 

[LaurenThePartier]

Date: 10/13/2009 1:06:39 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 10/13/2009 12:56:28 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier
I''m curious - does anyone on PS have an untreated orange sapphire? I can''t recall ever seeing one . . .

Never mind the un-treated ones, I''d even be happy to see a few more treated ones for sale. I only ever see orange ones in those hideous rainbow sapphire pieces. Where are the loose ones?

That, too. Do they sell those rainbow pieces in super-huge ct. weights? Like each stone is 2 ct. +?

 

[T L]

Date: 10/13/2009 1:09:07 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier

Date: 10/13/2009 1:06:39 PM
Author: Gailey

Date: 10/13/2009 12:56:28 PM
Author: LaurenThePartier
I''m curious - does anyone on PS have an untreated orange sapphire? I can''t recall ever seeing one . . .

Never mind the un-treated ones, I''d even be happy to see a few more treated ones for sale. I only ever see orange ones in those hideous rainbow sapphire pieces. Where are the loose ones?

That, too. Do they sell those rainbow pieces in super-huge ct. weights? Like each stone is 2 ct. +?

I''m 99% sure that those small orange ones are probably be-treated. Pure orange sapphires in untreated color are very rare, like padparadchas.

 

[beaujolais]

--- Maybe I wasn''t clear, but all the garnets (including spessartite) are singly refractive. ---

Oh, sorry. I had misinterpreted. It was early and I was in a rush.

Thanks all.

I didn''t realize the orange sapphires were, pretty much treated.

You know, discussing things here is such a great way to learn. It stays with me so much more than just reading it in a book would. Thanks lots. You are all the best !

 

[Harriet]

I saw a 15ct square cushion sapphire the same colour as my spessartite. No BE treatment.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 10/13/2009 8:07:51 PM
Author: Harriet
I saw a 15ct square cushion sapphire the same colour as my spessartite. No BE treatment.

Where?

 

[ma re]

^ In a museum?

 

[Harriet]

McTeigue and McClelland''s.

 

[Barrett]

I agree with morecarats on all points..hardness is a slight issue but for the money and originality spess is the way to go..come on everyone has a sapphire..not many have spess in comparison

 

[coati]

Date: 10/13/2009 10:43:38 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/13/2009 9:00:39 AM

Author: morecarats

A lot of the orange sapphires you'll find in the market have been lattice diffused with beryllium to achieve the bright orange color. Natural orange sapphires do exist, but they are not easy to find, and will definitely be more expensive than an untreated spessartite garnet.



The refractive index of spessartite garnet (1.79 - 1.82) is very similar to sapphire (1.762 - 1.77. You'll be able to find larger sizes in spessartite, and will find a much greater selection of stones to consider. I think spessartite is an outstanding value in today's market, and there is an interesting range of colors to choose from (so long as you like orange or red-orange).


Though both spessartite and orange sapphire have excellent brilliance, they do have quite a different look since garnet is singly refractive.

Ditto


If you can find a true mandarin orange spessartite, it's really a beautiful thing to behold. Pictures just don't do it justice, and I rather have that then a sapphire, which in terms of price for a very very rare natural untreated orange stone is very very pricey. We're talking several thousand a carat here vs maybe $500/ct for a top orange mandarin garnet of say 3 carats. Also sapphire is so dense (the thing I HATE the most about sapphires) is that a one carat stone will look like a half carat in almost any other gem species.
Not a lot of bang for your buck. The next best orange stone, imho, is mandarin/fanta orange spessartite garnet. Fire opals are a nice orange stone as well, but can be very sleepy, low RI (less sparkle), and they're not very durable.

Spessartite garnet generally has a higher specific gravity than corundum. About 4.15 (give or take .05) The sg of corundum is approx 4.00 (give or take .10) They are close enough in density. Sapphire is priced higher in general, though.

As far as RI is concerned--the higher RI of spessartite definitely distinguishes it from corundum. I know this is all relative minutiae, but the differences are discernible.

In any case, Sonoma, I'd choose the spess, (and I have

) because I like the crisp brilliance. I don't mind a little yellow in mine either--brightens it a bit.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/14/2009 12:00:31 PM
Author: coatimundi

Date: 10/13/2009 10:43:38 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 10/13/2009 9:00:39 AM

Author: morecarats

A lot of the orange sapphires you''ll find in the market have been lattice diffused with beryllium to achieve the bright orange color. Natural orange sapphires do exist, but they are not easy to find, and will definitely be more expensive than an untreated spessartite garnet.



The refractive index of spessartite garnet (1.79 - 1.82) is very similar to sapphire (1.762 - 1.77. You''ll be able to find larger sizes in spessartite, and will find a much greater selection of stones to consider. I think spessartite is an outstanding value in today''s market, and there is an interesting range of colors to choose from (so long as you like orange or red-orange).


Though both spessartite and orange sapphire have excellent brilliance, they do have quite a different look since garnet is singly refractive.

Ditto


If you can find a true mandarin orange spessartite, it''s really a beautiful thing to behold. Pictures just don''t do it justice, and I rather have that then a sapphire, which in terms of price for a very very rare natural untreated orange stone is very very pricey. We''re talking several thousand a carat here vs maybe $500/ct for a top orange mandarin garnet of say 3 carats. Also sapphire is so dense (the thing I HATE the most about sapphires) is that a one carat stone will look like a half carat in almost any other gem species.
Not a lot of bang for your buck. The next best orange stone, imho, is mandarin/fanta orange spessartite garnet. Fire opals are a nice orange stone as well, but can be very sleepy, low RI (less sparkle), and they''re not very durable.

Spessartite garnet generally has a higher specific gravity than corundum. About 4.15 (give or take .05) The sg of corundum is approx 4.00 (give or take .10) They are close enough in density. Sapphire is priced higher in general, though.

As far as RI is concerned--the higher RI of spessartite definitely distinguishes it from corundum. I know this is all relative minutiae, but the differences are discernible.

In any case, Sonoma, I''d choose the spess, (and I have

) because I like the crisp brilliance. I don''t mind a little yellow in mine either--brightens it a bit.

Really??? Wow, I''m shocked. I had always assumed it was lighter. Dopey me!

 

[chrono]

The high SG won’t stop you from getting anymore garnets though, I’m sure.

 

[T L]

Date: 10/14/2009 12:21:26 PM
Author: Chrono
The high SG won’t stop you from getting anymore garnets though, I’m sure.

I think the pricepoint and the quality of color you can get with a garnet vs other species of gems is why. For example, your cushion tsavorite reminds me of a top quality emerald, and most people not familiar with gemstones, would probably think it is. It would probably be at least 20K if it were an emerald.

 

[beaujolais]

Ah, Coati, there you are. Thanks so much ! How have you been, Hon? We''ve missed you lots.

I had figured there would be significant differences but wanted to learn more. As always, the many posters-of-great-knowledge came through.

Thanks all, so much.

 

[Stone Hunter]

Date: 10/14/2009 1:30:41 PM
Author: sonomacounty
Ah, Coati, there you are. Thanks so much ! How have you been, Hon? We''ve missed you lots.

I had figured there would be significant differences but wanted to learn more. As always, the many posters-of-great-knowledge came through.

Thanks all, so much.

So what''s the verdict? Will you start searching for a Spess or a Sapphire?

 

[beaujolais]

Oh, spessarite. Thanks for asking.

(However, this has to go over to my *medium* list. On the *short* list (meaning more pressing) is to get a few stones set.)

I had known they both had a high RI but didn''t know much else. Now I have more info. Thanks much Dear Friends.