The garnet problem

[BlueWinters]

I would appreciate insight as to the average price of garnet, particularly rough garnet, in your experiences. I came a cross a beautiful, rough gemstone that I really want to buy, this red garnet:

http://blazengems.com/retail/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=1191



However, then I did a search for rough garnets, just to compare with others before I actually bought this one, and it seems they are dirt cheap in other sites, as cheap as a typical takeout meal, or even a couple of bucks. Gems that claim to be similar or even better than that $120 gemstone. Like this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/TOP-IF-FLAWLESS-5-40ct-NATURAL-UNHEATED-RED-RHODOLITE-GARNET-ROUGH-FACET-NR-/371160607410

And so I come to the conclusion that there's a quality issue somewhere, but the price difference is tremendous and constant. So here I wonder, what is the difference between this $120 rough and these other cheap ones on sites like eBay? I am still thinking of buying the $120 one of course, but first I need to be sure it is not a total rip-off. Thank you. Also, if anyone has good websites to browse more rough garnets, please include them, I'd appreciate it very much.

 

[deskjockey]

It's true that some types of garnet are plentiful and inexpensive, but I think buying rough is a really hard game and without knowing a LOT about it, personally I'd be more comfortable paying more getting rough from a reputable and honest vendor. I've never bought from Blaze but have talked to him a few times, and going by my interaction and the thoughts of others here who have purchased from him, I'd pay more for his stuff on the assumption that he's really checked it over and is offering a very good candidate for cutting. The ebay rough may well be flawless but it's really impossible to judge rough from static photographs. It looks to me like the photos may be manipulated for color, and extremely strong lighting was used, the actual rough may not be nearly such a nice color in person.

I have a couple small pieces of garnet rough that were sent to me as "presents" along with a cut garnet I'd bought - they're lovely and with strong lighting I can make them look really nice, but they are poor candidates for cutting (internal flaws, and the shape of the rough itself would mean very poor yield, and very dark).

If you're looking to use rough as-is without cutting, then you can loosen standards a little bit, as the higher priced ones seem to be higher priced based on their suitability for cutting.

 

[bobsiv]

Gem rough is very difficult to evaluate even in person, and impossible with just a picture. You pay for reputation and reliability, you need to trust the vendor and their ability to evaluate rough. The stuff on Ebay is almost always not facet quality. It's either too dark or included or both. In fact, as a cutter, I would pass on the one you posted even though Blaze has a great reputation as a vendor. I think it will be too dark in person.

You can ask for a picture showing the 'white paper test', where the rough is photographed on a sheet of white paper with a flashlight illuminating the stone from about 8-12 inches away. If the stone casts a red shadow, it might be a cutter. If it casts a dark shadow, don't bother cutting it.

 

[T L]

If the ebay stone is cheap enough, say you do get it at the bid price of $1.99, then go for it. You don't have much to lose, but like Bob said, it might not be quality rough.

 

[digdeep]

"And so I come to the conclusion that there's a quality issue somewhere, but the price difference is tremendous and constant. So here I wonder, what is the difference between this $120 rough and these other cheap ones on sites like eBay?"


The quality issue is that you are thinking there is a standard for rough...........and there isn't. People (ebay in particular) try to make $$$$. We've told you that to take rough and expect it to be Cinderella is not a good investment---appreciate rough for what it is........a pretty stone or a gamble if you want it cut. You aren't going to have people agreeing that you will get a beautiful gem from any rough you find---just too many variables. Capiche?

 

[T L]

Unless I'm very mistaken, red garnet is really inexpensive, even in cut form. I'm not sure how large a stone a 7.7 carat piece of rough will cut, but yield is only like 40% at most??? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. That piece of rough looks too red to be rhodolite which has a pinkish hue to it and is more expensive than red pyrope, but again, it's so hard to judge from rough and one photo. It may be that this piece is overpriced, but then again, I'm only pointing out the negatives, and it may cut to a beautiful stone. As for the ebay rough, it's super cheap, so it is suspect as well, and probably won't cut the best stone, but I think $1.99 and free shipping is not a huge risk to take to satisfy your curiosity, and if it's junk, you can always give it to a kid or some niece/nephew/son/daughter to play with or bring to show and tell at school.

 

[iLander]

There is a chunk of garnet in Australia (I think that's where it is) that is literally as big as a house.

It's a cheap plentiful stone.

 

[T L]

Well, if the picture is accurate, I wouldn't pay more than $5 for this gem, but they want $100.

http://blazengems.com/retail/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68&products_id=857

Yeah, I suspect they're just overpriced. Get the ebay stone for fun, and skip this other rough.

 

[bobsiv]

I think there's probably a locality premium involved here. And I take issue with the statement that garnet is cheap and plentiful. You could say the say thing about sapphire. There are different qualities of garnet, even if you're just talking about rhodolite.

 

[PrecisionGem]

When looking at garnet, you need to define what type of garnet. Red, isn't really a type, and there are many different garnets that could roughly be defined as red, and the prices can vary by a large amount.

I see red garnets from Nigeria being sold as "Malaya", and this is simply wrong. These Nigerian stones are not malaya garnet, and are sold at a pretty low price. They cut a dark, unattractive stone. A true malaya garnet, is not a cheap stone, I have paid over $50 per ct for good sized rough malaya garnet. These Nigerian stone will often sell in the same size for under $1 per ct.

This is just one example, and there are so many different types of garnets, its a job just to identify them, and keep track of the current pricing of rough. When looking at the prices of rough stones, size is also very important. I'll buy garnet under 1 gram at one price, and the same material 1 to 2 grams at a price often twice that, over 2 grams will have another jump in price.

Even within the same type of stone such as a Rhodolite, the prices of rough will vary significantly based on the color, and also clarity. Often rhodolite have fine silk in them, and this will lower the price, very glassy pieces will sell for 2 to 3 times the price per ct as somewhat silky pieces. Then there are Umbalite garnets which are a lighter type of Rhodolite. The past 5 years these have been much more scarce, and have subsequently commanded much higher prices than rhodolite.

Moving up the price scale you have Spessartite and of course tsavorite among others.

 

[BlueWinters]

Thank you all for the advice! I wasn't really planning on cutting this one, just looking for an interesting rough garnet to collect.

 

[BlueWinters]

When looking at garnet, you need to define what type of garnet. Red, isn't really a type, and there are many different garnets that could roughly be defined as red, and the prices can vary by a large amount.

I see red garnets from Nigeria being sold as "Malaya", and this is simply wrong. These Nigerian stones are not malaya garnet, and are sold at a pretty low price. They cut a dark, unattractive stone. A true malaya garnet, is not a cheap stone, I have paid over $50 per ct for good sized rough malaya garnet. These Nigerian stone will often sell in the same size for under $1 per ct.

This is just one example, and there are so many different types of garnets, its a job just to identify them, and keep track of the current pricing of rough. When looking at the prices of rough stones, size is also very important. I'll buy garnet under 1 gram at one price, and the same material 1 to 2 grams at a price often twice that, over 2 grams will have another jump in price.

Even within the same type of stone such as a Rhodolite, the prices of rough will vary significantly based on the color, and also clarity. Often rhodolite have fine silk in them, and this will lower the price, very glassy pieces will sell for 2 to 3 times the price per ct as somewhat silky pieces. Then there are Umbalite garnets which are a lighter type of Rhodolite. The past 5 years these have been much more scarce, and have subsequently commanded much higher prices than rhodolite.

Moving up the price scale you have Spessartite and of course tsavorite among others.

This particular one is from Montana, USA. I wonder if that has anything to do with the price, maybe a rarity among other Montana garnets?

 

[BlueWinters]

Gem rough is very difficult to evaluate even in person, and impossible with just a picture. You pay for reputation and reliability, you need to trust the vendor and their ability to evaluate rough. The stuff on Ebay is almost always not facet quality. It's either too dark or included or both. In fact, as a cutter, I would pass on the one you posted even though Blaze has a great reputation as a vendor. I think it will be too dark in person.

You can ask for a picture showing the 'white paper test', where the rough is photographed on a sheet of white paper with a flashlight illuminating the stone from about 8-12 inches away. If the stone casts a red shadow, it might be a cutter. If it casts a dark shadow, don't bother cutting it.

Here are some other pictures of it:

 

[GregS]

Color aside, I wouldn't expect a high yield from that stone just based on the dimensions. It looks to be too shallow for a large stone, you couldn't get a pavilion deep enough for a stone with decent spread.

 

[T L]

I think there's probably a locality premium involved here. And I take issue with the statement that garnet is cheap and plentiful. You could say the say thing about sapphire. There are different qualities of garnet, even if you're just talking about rhodolite.

I think regular pyrope garnet is pretty cheap and plentiful, and upon doing more research on that website, that's what the Montana garnet is, just pyrope. I don't think origin should play a part into it, as it's not the most attractive if we're going by the photos, and even the cut stones don't look super appealing from a red garnet perspective.

I do concur with Gene and others though, that some rhodolites, and other types of garnet species, can be very costly. For example, fine Umbalite is not cheap, and that's a type of rhodolite known for it's rich purple red hues.

 

[deskjockey]

With the additional pictures, I'm pretty meh on that piece.

Maybe try here:

http://www.westerngem.com/Rhodolite-Garnets.html

I'd be pretty hesitant to go with ebay, though at the prices they have it's not like you lose much.

 

[BlueWinters]

I think there's probably a locality premium involved here. And I take issue with the statement that garnet is cheap and plentiful. You could say the say thing about sapphire. There are different qualities of garnet, even if you're just talking about rhodolite.

I think regular pyrope garnet is pretty cheap and plentiful, and upon doing more research on that website, that's what the Montana garnet is, just pyrope. I don't think origin should play a part into it, as it's not the most attractive if we're going by the photos, and even the cut stones don't look super appealing from a red garnet perspective.

I do concur with Gene and others though, that some rhodolites, and other types of garnet species, can be very costly. For example, fine Umbalite is not cheap, and that's a type of rhodolite known for it's rich purple red hues.

With the additional pictures, I'm pretty meh on that piece.

Maybe try here:

http://www.westerngem.com/Rhodolite-Garnets.html

I'd be pretty hesitant to go with ebay, though at the prices they have it's not like you lose much.

Fair point, you are right, my best bet is probably something from eBay to satisfy my curiosity for now. Then perhaps I'll look into buying one from respected sellers if there is indeed a quality issue. As I said, I don't plan to have this made into a gem. Thank you all

 

[SparkliesLuver]

Another place worth checking, if/when you're interested, for what it's worth.

http://www.africangemstones.co.za/plate2.htm

http://www.africangemstones.co.za/plate15.htm

 

[chrono]

If you are getting rough just for the sake of something interesting, then get what you like and don't pay a lot for it. Those that you showed are very dark and if faceted, would end up very small due to the weird/uneven shape.