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The Massachusetts Court Ruling on Homosexual Marriage

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AGBF

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November 19, 2003
Marriage by Gays Gains Big Victory in Massachusetts
By PAM BELLUCK

BOSTON, Nov. 18 — Massachusetts'' highest court ruled on Tuesday that gay couples have the right to marry under the state''s Constitution, and it gave the state legislature 180 days to make same-sex marriages possible.

The 4-to-3 decision was the first in which a state high court had ruled homosexual couples are constitutionally entitled to marry, and legal experts predicted it would have ramifications across the country.

"The question before us is whether, consistent with the Massachusetts Constitution, the commonwealth may deny the protections, benefits and obligations conferred by civil marriage to two individuals of the same sex who wish to marry," wrote Chief Justice Margaret H. Marshall of the state''s Supreme Judicial Court. "We conclude that it may not. The Massachusetts Constitution affirms the dignity and equality of all individuals. It forbids the creation of second-class citizens."

The decision, which did not explicitly tell the state legislature how to carry out the ruling, sent lawmakers and legal experts scrambling to determine what options exist short of legitimizing gay marriage. Other experts said that the court appeared determined to extend full marriage rights to gay men and lesbians.

The decision ignited a storm of reaction throughout the nation, with gay groups and some liberals heralding the ruling, and conservatives and some religious groups denouncing it.

"We''re thrilled and delighted the highest court in the state of Massachusetts confirms that our community has the right to enter into civil marriage the same as other couples," said David Tseng, the executive director of Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, who noted that three of the four justices in the majority were appointed by Republican governors. "This is a tremendous victory for fairness and for families."

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, a conservative group, said "it is inexcusable for this court to force the state legislature to `fix'' its state constitution to make it comport with the pro-homosexual agenda of four court justices."

Mr. Perkins and other conservatives said the decision underscored the need for a federal constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.

"We must amend the Constitution if we are to stop a tyrannical judiciary from redefining marriage to the point of extinction," he said.

It also seemed likely that the court ruling would catapult same-sex marriage into a major issue in the presidential campaign. Virtually every Democratic presidential candidate issued a statement on Tuesday that tried to find a middle ground on an issue that is nothing if not polarizing. Most did not express support for gay marriage or a constitutional amendment banning it, but said they supported giving gay couples the benefits heterosexual couples receive.

President Bush, who has opposed same-sex marriage but not embraced the idea of a constitutional amendment, said in a statement: "Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman. Today''s decision of the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court violates this important principle. I will work with Congressional leaders and others to do what is legally necessary to defend the sanctity of marriage."

In defending the current practice of restricting marriages to heterosexual couples, Massachusetts officials had argued that the main purpose of marriage was procreation, that heterosexual marriage was best for child-rearing, and that gay marriage would impose a financial burden on the state. But Justice Marshall dismissed those arguments, saying that the state "has failed to identify any constitutionally adequate reason for denying civil marriage to same-sex couples."

Some legal experts said they thought the ruling might allow room for Massachusetts to embrace a parallel system like the civil unions allowed by Vermont. Other experts said the 34-page ruling left little doubt that the court intended that full-fledged marriage be extended to gays and lesbians. Robert E. Travaglini, president of the State Senate, who has said he supports civil unions but not same-sex marriage, said on Tuesday that "the strength of the language and the depth of the decision" makes it clear that marriage, and not civil unions, "is the wish of the court."

Because it is based in state law, the ruling cannot be appealed to the United States Supreme Court. And it cannot be overturned by the legislature. But the legislature could try to amend the state Constitution to ban gay marriage, an option that Gov. Mitt Romney said on Tuesday that he favored. Such a process, though, would take at least three years.

Polls show that many Americans, while more tolerant of homosexual relationships, still do not support homosexual marriage. And some experts predicted that the court decision would increase support for laws banning gay marriage in states and at a national level. Already, 37 states have passed measures defining marriage as between men and women.

"This comes pretty close to an earthquake politically," said Alan Wolfe, a professor of political science at Boston College. "I think it''s exactly the right kind of material for a backlash."

The decision was a personal victory for at least 14 people: the gay and lesbian partners who were plaintiffs in the court case. The seven couples from across the state, most of whom had lived together for years and some of whom are raising children, all sought marriage licenses in 2001 from their town or city offices.

A lower-court judge dismissed the case in May 2002 before it went to trial, ruling that because same-sex couples cannot have children, the state does not give them the right to marry.

"Without a doubt this is the happiest day of our lives," said one plaintiff, Gloria Bailey, 62, of Cape Cod, as she stood, teary-eyed, at a news conference with her partner of 32 years, Linda Davies, 67. "We''ve been wanting to get married practically since the day we met. We didn''t know if it would happen in our lifetime. We''re planning a spring wedding."

Several of the couples told stories of being denied access to their partners when they were hospitalized.

Hillary Goodridge, 46, of Boston, had to say she was the sister of her partner, Julie Goodridge, 45, to see Julie when she was rushed to the neonatal intensive care unit after giving birth to their daughter, Annie.

David Wilson, 58, was not able to say he was the brother of his partner, Robert Compton, 53, because Mr. Wilson is black and Mr. Compton, who has been hospitalized five times in the last five years, is white.

"We never have to worry about going to the hospital and negotiating our way through hospital teams because now we have the opportunity to protect ourselves through marriage," said Mr. Wilson, smiling at Mr. Compton.

Being legally married in Massachusetts would entitle same-sex couples to numerous other rights and benefits, including those related to property ownership, insurance, tax consquences and child custody. The marriage would not automatically be considered valid by the federal government or other states, which would probably have to decide on their own whether to recognize a Massachusetts gay marriage.

In the ruling, Justice Marshall wrote about the benefits of marriage for children and said that not being allowed to marry "works a deep and scarring hardship" on homosexual families.

"It cannot be rational under our laws, and indeed it is not permitted, to penalize children by depriving them of state benefits because the state disapproves of their parents'' sexual orientation," she wrote.

In the dissent, Justice Robert Cordy wrote that the marriage law was intended to apply to a man and a woman, and "it furthers the legitimate state purpose of ensuring, promoting and supporting an optimal social structure for the bearing and raising of children."

As it considers how to respond to the ruling in the next 180 days, the legislature will most likely consider several options. Already, in recent months, three different efforts have begun in the legislature: a drive to amend the state Constitution to ban gay marriage, a bill to establish civil unions and a bill that would allow for same-sex marriage.

The politics of Massachusetts make the issue especially tricky. The legislature is majority Democratic, but also largely Catholic, and the Roman Catholic Church is strenuously opposed to gay marriage. On the other hand, the Democrats are rarely aligned with Governor Romney, a Republican, who indicated on Tuesday that he would support some effort to extend benefits and rights to gay couples, though he would not support marriage.

"Marriage is an institution between a man and a woman," he said. "I will support an amendment to the Massachusetts Constitution that makes that expressly clear. Of course, we must provide basic civil rights and appropriate benefits to nontraditional couples, but marriage is a special institution that should be reserved for a man and a woman."

Arthur Miller, a Harvard law professor, said he thought that given the closeness of the court decision, there might be room for the legislature "to create a relationship that might not necessarily be called marriage but allows for the recognition of property passage and joint ownership and insurance and even child custody."

But Elizabeth Bartholet, a family law expert at Harvard Law School, said the extensive discussion of marriage in the decision made it unlikely the court would allow civil unions.

If the legislature did nothing or failed to comply, Professor Bartholet said, "I would assume after 180 days the Supreme Judicial Court would say this is law and the state would have to issue marriage licenses."

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Here is an update of the situation in Massachusetts (from "The New York Times"):

February 5, 2004
Massachusetts Gives New Push to Gay Marriage in Strong Ruling
By PAM BELLUCK

BOSTON, Feb. 4 — Massachusetts' highest court removed the state's last barrier to gay marriage on Wednesday, ruling that nothing short of full-fledged marriage would comply with the court's earlier ruling in November, and that civil unions would not pass muster.

The ruling means that starting on May 17 same-sex couples can get married in Massachusetts, making it the only state to permit gay marriage. Beyond that, the finding is certain to inflame a divisive debate in state legislatures nationwide and in this year's presidential race.

"The dissimilitude between the terms `civil marriage' and `civil union' is not innocuous," four of seven justices on the state's Supreme Judicial Court found. "It is a considered choice of language that reflects a demonstrable assigning of same-sex, largely homosexual, couples to second-class status."

The ruling came in response to a request by the Massachusetts Senate asking the court whether a bill giving same-sex couples the same rights and benefits of marriage, but calling their relationships civil unions, would comply with its November decision saying that gays had a constitutional right to marry.

The court said that such a bill "would have the effect of maintaining and fostering a stigma of exclusion that the Constitution prohibits. It would deny to same-sex `spouses' only a status that is specially recognized in society and has significant social and other advantages."

"The Massachusetts Constitution," the court said, "does not permit such invidious discrimination, no matter how well intentioned."

The ruling will probably give new impetus to a push by many conservatives for a constitutional amendment that would limit marriage to unions joining a man and a woman.

In a statement Wednesday, President Bush condemned the Massachusetts court's latest ruling but stopped short of explicitly endorsing a constitutional amendment. "Marriage is a sacred institution between a man and a woman," he said. "If activist judges insist on redefining marriage by court order, the only alternative will be the constitutional process. We must do what is legally necessary to defend the sanctity of marriage."

Wednesday's decision caused an uproar in the Massachusetts Legislature, where lawmakers are scheduled on Wednesday to vote on an amendment to the state's Constitution banning same-sex marriage. Many lawmakers in the largely Democratic, largely Roman Catholic body had supported civil unions but not gay marriage and were hoping the court would not force them to make an all-or-nothing decision.

At least one influential legislator, State Representative Eugene O'Flaherty, the chairman of the House Judiciary committee and a backer of civil unions, said he was almost certain to vote for the amendment now.

An amendment could not take effect until November 2006, because it would need to win passage in two consecutive legislative sessions and be approved in a voter referendum.

Nationally, the decision vaults the issue to a more prominent role in the presidential election, especially since the Democratic front-runner, Senator John Kerry, who supports civil unions and opposes same-sex marriage, is from Massachusetts.

It will also undoubtedly unleash activity in legislatures and courtrooms nationwide, as activists on each side of the issue seek to use the Massachusetts ruling to influence policy elsewhere.

Already, 38 states have laws defining marriage as a heterosexual institution, and 16 states are considering constitutional amendments that would ban same-sex marriages. Congress also passed a law in 1996, the Defense of Marriage Act, prohibiting federal recognition of gay marriages and relieving states of any obligation to recognize gay marriages from states where they might be legal.

As recently as Tuesday, fueled in part by the November court decision in Massachusetts — like Wednesday's, a 4-3 ruling — the Ohio Legislature approved a strict ban on same-sex unions, barring state agencies from giving benefits to both gay and heterosexual domestic partners.

Opponents of gay marriage vowed on Wednesday to increase their efforts further and push for an amendment to the federal Constitution.

"This case will determine the future of marriage throughout America," said Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council. "If same-sex couples `marry' in Massachusetts and move to other states, the Defense of Marriage Act will be left vulnerable to the same federal courts that have banned the Pledge of Allegiance and sanctioned partial-birth abortion."

Sandy Rios, president of Concerned Women for America, said "if the court is allowed to get away with these decisions with no accountability, it is the beginning of the crumbling of our democracy."

Proponents of same-sex marriages said they were hopeful that the Massachusetts ruling might lend legitimacy to such unions in other states. "We are really facing this onslaught of religious- and political-right attacks across the country, but we are hoping that fair-minded people will reject it and will reject this culture war," said Matt Foreman, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force.

Legal experts said there would inevitably be legal challenges filed by same-sex couples who marry in Massachusetts and move to other states.

"There's going to be a fist fight in Ohio," said Arthur Miller, a Harvard law professor. "There'll be a situation, for example, in which a spouse of a couple married in Massachusetts but living in Ohio tries to inherit and make claims, and that will end up in the U.S. Supreme Court."

Same-sex couples in Massachusetts and other states began marriage plans, but several said they were proceeding cautiously. "When I see those first couples coming from City Hall, I'll say, `it's real, but it's really real,' " said Bev Kunze, 48, a telecommunications manager in Boston who plans to marry her partner of 11 years, Kathleen McCabe, 52, a city planner.

Fred Kuhr, 36, the editor of In Newsweekly, a newspaper for gay men and lesbians, plans to marry his partner, Kip Roberson, 39, director of the Sharon, Mass., public library. But he said, "There are still roadblocks in the way, and even though this is a great day in terms of this issue, I'm not jumping up and down and walking down the aisle just yet."

The prospect of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts raises practical questions: What will life be like for couples who marry here and move back to a state that outlaws same-sex marriages? Or for couples in Massachusetts who would be entitled to state marriage benefits but not federal benefits, like the right to file taxes jointly or qualify for Social Security payments?

Indeed, in a dissenting opinion on Wednesday, Justice Martha B. Sosman listed some discrepancies. For example, she noted, same-sex couples would be ineligible for federal health care or nursing home benefits, and couples living in other states would not have the right to get divorced there.

The majority opinion, however, said, "We would do a grave disservice to every Massachusetts resident, and to our constitutional duty to interpret the law, to conclude that the strong protection of individual rights guaranteed by the Massachusetts Constitution should not be available to their fullest extent in the Commonwealth because those rights may not be acknowledged elsewhere."

Elizabeth Bartholet, a family-law professor at Harvard, said that even though other states might officially disavow gay marriages, a Massachusetts marriage certificate might informally encourage recognition of same-sex unions in areas like employment, health care and education.

"It doesn't mean everyone in that state subscribes to that," she said. "It may, for example, make a real difference in terms of all kinds of employment benefits that may be available to spouses. If you're living in Massachusetts, it's going to be hard for your Texas-based employer to deny you marital benefits."

Representative O'Flaherty said he would try to determine if the Legislature might still be able to draw up a new marriage law that could provide the court with a "rational basis why marriage should be a institution between a man and a woman."

But even the state attorney general, Thomas Reilly, whose office argued against same-sex marriage in the original case, said Wednesday's ruling made clear "same-sex couples have the constitutional right to marry under Massachusetts law."

The court seemed to offer one alternative. In a footnote, the decision found that same-sex unions would not have to be called marriages if "the Legislature were to jettison the term `marriage' altogether."

Some lawmakers suggested they would pass the amendment to give the public a say on it in a referendum. Gov. Mitt Romney agreed, saying "the people of Massachusetts should not be excluded from a decision as fundamental to our society as the definition of marriage."

Should an amendment pass, Mr. O'Flaherty said, legislators might ask the court to issue a stay until the amendment process was complete — a request legal experts thought the court would be unlikely to grant. Just the same, he and others asked, what would happen to same-sex marriages if, two and a half years from now, the state wound up making such marriages illegal?

Katie Zezima contributed reporting for this article.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | Help |
 
I'm right across the street from the State House in Boston--the streets are filled with protesters and supporters today as the legislature debates a constitutional amendment that would over-ride the court decision.

DD
 
I do have to wonder why folks would protest something that is so obviously needed.

Maybe I just don't 'get' it.

Personally I don't care the sex of people in love, I just am glad they want to marry, and spend the rest of their lives together.

win
 
Sadly for some, this issue is not about expressing love but about venting hate for those who are different from themselves.

I'll bring the camera tomorrow and post some photos from the State House if they are still out there.

DD
 
Let's do away with marriage as a legal institution.

It makes more sense than allowing the minority to decide for themselves who or what or how many make a marriage.
 
R/A, I don't know if you're being facetious, but there's something to be said for that approach. As with any cultural tradition, when you get the government involved in defining/sanctioning/regulating it, things eventually start drifting away from what you started with.




People forget that marriage wasn't always a legal institution. The difference was that in Europe, you were often dealing a de facto (or actual de jure) state religion, so having only church sanction of the marriage was about the same thing.




This was going to happen eventually--sooner or later the 1st and 14th Amendment issues in the traditional idea of marriage were going to have to be addressed.
 
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On 2/12/2004 6:26:58 PM Rank Amateur wrote:

"Let's do away with marriage as a legal institution."



R/A-

I keep wondering if there is a relationship between the increasing number of children you have and the increasing number of times you suggest that there is no need for the institution of marriage ;-).

Deb

PS-LawGem I tried to post an article on the situation in San Francisco earlier today but couldn't do it. Apparently city(?) officials married two lesbians in an act of civil disobedience. I wonder if those women will turn out to be the first same-sex couple legally married in the United States once all the dust settles.
 
No, I'm not really being facetious. When the instutition begins to stray so far from its original intent it may just be time to abolish it.

Sort of like teachers unions.
 


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On 2/12/2004 11:13:41 PM AGBF wrote:







PS-LawGem I tried to post an article on the situation in San Francisco earlier today but couldn't do it. Apparently city(?) officials married two lesbians in an act of civil disobedience. I wonder if those women will turn out to be the first same-sex couple legally married in the United States once all the dust settles.

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Absent some retroactive statute passing the legislature, they won't be. This was really just a publicity stunt. The "marriage certificates" were issued in contravention of state law--and it's the state, not the county of SF, that defines how marriage certificates may be issued--and thus probably have no legal weight.

 
I believe that this is going to be a turning point in American society: a huge cultural discussion about the nature of marriage and, thus, of family. This article from "The New York Times" describes the scene in San Francisco. The city government is, essentially, engaging in an act of civil disobedience. No one knows for sure where it will end.

February 17, 2004
Rushing to Say 'I Do' Before City Is Told 'You Can't'
By CAROLYN MARSHALL

SAN FRANCISCO, Feb. 16 — Intent on getting a coveted marriage license before court hearings on Tuesday to stop same-sex marriages, hundreds of gay and lesbian couples continued to descend on City Hall on Monday, many after camping outside overnight and braving chilling rain.

The assessor-recorder, Mabel S. Teng, said her office, responsible for issuing the $83 licenses, performed 825 weddings on Monday, bringing the number of same-sex marriages to about 2,425 since the city opened the gates to gay couples on Thursday.

The clerk's staff, the sheriff's department and volunteers from other offices worked through the three-day holiday weekend without pay, Ms. Teng said. "It's purely out of love and commitment to equal rights."

At least 200 city workers, with additional help from the public, kept the doors to City Hall open over the weekend. Still, officials acknowledged that some couples might not obtain a license before the courts stepped in.

"We got in line yesterday and waited but didn't get anything and were sent home," said Persephone Gonzalez, a 29-year-old teacher who left Long Beach, Calif., at 8 a.m. on Sunday and arrived here at 1 p.m., only to face long lines. "It was disappointing, but we returned at 3:30 this morning. We're running on everyone else's adrenaline."

The joyous frenzy to marry started after Mayor Gavin C. Newsom told city and county officials to begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples under a directive that opponents say defies state law. The mayor's early Valentine's Day gesture was immediately challenged by two groups. Court hearings on the challenges, brought by the Alliance Defense Fund and the Campaign for California Families, are scheduled for Tuesday.

Robert Tyler, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, said Monday in a telephone interview that the city was making "a mockery to democracy" by violating state law.

The vast majority of the newlyweds are from San Francisco and the Bay Area, but 150 traveled from around Los Angeles, San Diego and other California cities. Ms. Teng said at least 50 couples who married this weekend were out-of-state residents, including people from Texas, Colorado, South Carolina and Pennsylvania. Four couples flew in from overseas: from New Zealand, Switzerland, the Netherlands and Thailand.

Doug Benson, 50, and Duane Gajewski, 40, flew overnight from their home in Robbinsdale, Minn.

Draped in clear shower curtains bought at the last minute at a 24-hour drugstore to protect them from the rain, the couple got in line at 4 a.m. on Monday. By late morning they had yet to reach the front steps of the civic center. The delay did not discourage them.

"My parents married here in City Hall in World War II, so this is very special for me," said a tearful Mr. Benson. "We're full citizens and we pay taxes. We didn't ask to be gay, but that's what happened. We just want the same rights as everybody else."

Mr. Benson said he felt compelled to fly here to participate in what advocates are calling a historic event reminiscent of the struggle once faced by interracial couples. He echoed the sentiments of many couples who argued that gays or lesbians in a committed relationship should be afforded the same rights as heterosexual couples.

"We're already a family," Mr. Benson said. "So regardless of what the legal system decides, this shows our support and demand for privileges and benefits you get from being married."

The city typically marries 30 couples a day. Roughly 485 same-sex couples were married on Saturday, and 469 on Sunday.

City and county officials acknowledge that the state's family law forbids same-sex marriage, but they argue that the state's Constitution protects equal rights and takes precedence. Legal experts said the new licenses held only symbolic value because California law defines marriage as being between a man and a woman. City officials advised the couples to seek legal advice about their status.

Some experts say California may be headed for a state Supreme Court battle similar to the one in Massachusetts, where the state's highest court in November affirmed the right of gays to marry.

As Tuesday's hearings seeking to block the marriages neared, Ms. Teng said her office would continue to issue marriage licenses "until I hear from the city attorney."

Among the local residents seeking licenses were Richard Bernard, a 47-year-old technologist, and David Dupre, a 44-year-old pharmacist, who have been together for 22 years. Huddled under umbrellas and standing arm in arm, they said they showed up at 9 a.m. on Sunday but were eventually told to go home. They returned Monday at 6:45 a.m.

"I am getting married because it's right," Mr. Bernard said. "This is one of the last outstanding prejudices and it's wrong. It's very important to stand up against George Bush and the right wing."

Despite the long wait, the mood in the line was jubilant. Well-wishers driving by honked horns and flashed peace signs. Newlyweds emerged from City Hall to wild cheers. Couples snapped photos, primped and prepared vows. One woman who was married Sunday returned Monday with coffee and doughnuts for the waiting-weary.

"Most people don't see this side of the community," Mr. Bernard said. "These are the couples who own homes, pay taxes. We are part of the backbone of society — the quiet majority."

Waiting in line on Monday, Nancy Faria, 42 and Linda Weidner, 47, Massachusetts residents who have been a couple for five years, said legal battles in their state and subsequent protests against gays and lesbians prompted them to fly to San Francisco. They viewed the trip as an act of civil disobedience and worth the effort, even if they return home without a license.

Inside City Hall, staff members had set up an assembly line to process the licenses, in part by revamping computer programs intended to deal with property assessments. Couples wend from lines for marriage applications, to lines for officials to proofread the documents to lines to shuffle people through civil ceremonies. Angela Gross, a 28-year-old event planner from San Francisco, felt compelled to volunteer. She was in charge of copying the licenses before the newlyweds left.

"We are the last people they see," Ms. Gross said. "We get to hand them the license and say congratulations before we send them on their way to spend the rest of their lives together."

Ms. Gross said she was amazed by the patience and care shown by the staff in the clerk's office. "It's managed chaos," she said. "I'm tired, we are all tired. But it's important to be here, to be part of it."

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On 2/13/2004 1:55:55 PM LawGem wrote:

"Absent some retroactive statute passing the legislature, they won't be. This was really just a publicity stunt."


I disagree that one can call this "just a publicity stunt". Whether or not one agrees with the idea of homosexual marriage, this move was an act of defiance, of civil disobedience. It was more like heaving tea into Boston Harbor than like going over Niagra Falls in a barrel. It was meant to force change.
 
Regarding the action in San Francisco, it also helps demonstrate how many gays and lesbians are desirous of marriage and long-term commitment. It's important to dispel the idea that the GLBT community is not commitment and family oriented.

No pictures from Boston--the convention has been put off for a month.

DD
 
aaauuugh LawGem de facto and de jure!!! Can't escape law school.....

But more on topic: sooo glad SF is doing something to kick start the process, even if it's not wholly legitimate! My prediction is that in 50 (hopefully much less) or so years, gay marriage will be akin to what interracial marriage is today -- i.e., people will be sooo embarassed that it was ever illegal because it was such an obvious BS affront to civil rights.
 
More about Gay rights...in ZOOS!!!
naughty.gif





http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/arts/07GAY.html?pagewanted=1&ei=1&en=285fd0fa41b7c3bc&ex=1077705187
 


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On 2/17/2004 12:09:51 PM weemodin wrote:





aaauuugh LawGem de facto and de jure!!! Can't escape law school.....

----------------
Weemodin, you'll know you're really a lawyer when you start talking like that and don't even realize you're doing it.
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On 2/17/2004 10:28:13 AM AGBF wrote:







I disagree that one can call this 'just a publicity stunt'. Whether or not one agrees with the idea of homosexual marriage, this move was an act of defiance, of civil disobedience. It was more like heaving tea into Boston Harbor than like going over Niagra Falls in a barrel. It was meant to force change.

----------------

I think there are some publicity elements to it. It's not really much different from what went on a few months ago with the spat over the Ten Commandments monument in the Alabama Supreme Court building. In both cases, you had public officials deciding for themselves which laws they were going to follow, and in both cases they were outside of their authority. Just as the federal courts have the last word on the Consitution, the California Legislature and the California Supreme Court have the last word on the definition of marriage in California.



I have no problems with civil disobedience ...but let's not lose sight of the fact that these "licenses" they're issuing are a legal nullity. The courts are sure to confirm that within a few days.

 
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On 2/17/2004 3:45:21 PM LawGem wrote:







"I think there are some publicity elements to it. It's not really much different from what went on a few months ago with the spat over the Ten Commandments monument in the Alabama Supreme Court building. In both cases, you had public officials deciding for themselves which laws they were going to follow, and in both cases they were outside of their authority."





If it is of comfort to you, LawGem, I also see that judge's actions over his Ten Commandments monument as an act of civil disobedience ;-).
 
Personally, I'm glad SF is doing something. As someone said before me, in 50 years the whole thing will be a moot point, rather like the laws forbidding African-American/white marriage or American Indian/white marriage.

Laws like this are sick and unjust, it's about time everyone's eyes were opened!

win
 
It is not sick and unjust. (By the way, just so I know, when is it acceptable to label something sick and unjust? If I designated the idea of same sex marriage as "sick" you would rightfully jump down my throat.)

There is nothing wrong with society drawing the marriage line at one man and one woman. The line needs to be drawn SOMEWHERE. Why not let brother and sister marry? Or brother and brother? (No messy biological worries about shrunken gene pool there.) Father daughter? Or two men and one woman? Anywhere you draw the line you put people on the other side of it.

To me, one man one woman seems like the most obvious place to draw it. Once you blur that line you might as well do away with marriage as a legal entity.
 
Oh, I've stayed out of this one, but RA's question has goaded me into jumping in.

We've been sitting here, blissfully reading daily front-page accounts of City Hall marriages. One thing that especially touched me yesterday was this quote from the paper.

"'It doesn't matter what the courts do -- I was married for a day in San Francisco,' said Maylene Kuahiwinui, 26, who hugged her partner of nine years, Charity, also 26, before pointing their van back toward Seattle on Monday."

I still can't read that without tearing up.

My first thought when these marriages were announced was that it was an incomparable political ploy by Gavin Newsom. In SF, supporting gay marriage is such a safe move that he was able to rally the gay community on his side without having to worry about any political fall-out. When the courts hand down their ruling, he'll still be able to say he tried. Also, this early in his political career, he can afford to do something crazy and still shrug it off later if he runs for national office.

In spite of all of that, though, I can't help be moved by it all. Gay marriage is hardly comparable to marriage between siblings or whatnot; it's about giving people who have no *choice* but to fall in love with someone of the same sex the right to be legally united.
 
Exactly Hest...what's wrong with one person and one person.

Obviously brother/sister though ok in pre-Christian Hawaii, and ancient Egypt (Kemet), can be problematic, the same with any close relatives marrying.

I truly believe the whole idea of the problem w/same sex marriages is rooted in the Judaeo/Christian/Islamic outlook, not in what's real.

win
 
Every society believes that its ways are the right and natural ones. That belief, ethnocentrism, is universal.

The function of marriage was, at first, simply to decide how land would be passed down once people ceased to be hunter-gatherers and settled down to farm (having blocks of land).

People became attached to this convention after doing it for a while and the idea of it being something else seemed inconceivable.

I do not see how a custom can be right or wrong. It is what it is: just a custom.

One can argue that some custom is an result of something we perceive as negative-for example that a woman having to cover herself entirely in Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia is the result of her being seen as second class. But arguing the customs are "wrong" is just ethnocentric.

For the record, I don't like the custom of women having to throw themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres in India. It's not my cup of tea.
 
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On 2/18/2004 6:07:17 PM winyan wrote:

Exactly Hest...what's wrong with one person and one person.


Obviously brother/sister though ok in pre-Christian Hawaii, and ancient Egypt (Kemet), can be problematic, the same with any close relatives marrying.


I truly believe the whole idea of the problem w/same sex marriages is rooted in the Judaeo/Christian/Islamic outlook, not in what's real.


win----------------


Nothing may be wrong with one person and one person. But that doesn't make one man / one woman "unjust". "Unjust" is a term that expresses a value judgement and on whose value judgement are we all to agree?
 
HOW ABOUT THEM COYBOYS!!!!!!!!! I don't care one way or another about somebody's sexual prefrence. That is their business. However if they have decided to make a commitment, be it marriage or whatever, they should be entitled to the same protections under the law that Iam entitled to. Nuf said.
 
----------------
On 2/18/2004 6:26:25 PM Basset Hound wrote:

HOW ABOUT THEM COYBOYS!!!!!!!!! I don't care one way or another about somebody's sexual prefrence. That is their business. However if they have decided to make a commitment, be it marriage or whatever, they should be entitled to the same protections under the law that Iam entitled to. Nuf said.----------------


I agree.
 
To clarify, I wasn't saying one man and one woman was 'unjust'; just the narrowminded view it *has* to be one man and one woman, seems unjust to me. One man and one woman has been the status quo for many years. I think it's more than time for the status quo to change.

win
 
----------------
On 2/18/2004 7:47:53 PM winyan wrote:

One man and one woman has been the status quo for many years. I think it's more than time for the status quo to change.

win----------------


For the reasons Hest cited, I agree. :-)

Deb
 
The Latest From California (from "The New York Times"):

February 19, 2004
San Francisco Mayor Exults in Move on Gay Marriage
By DEAN E. MURPHY

SAN FRANCISCO, Feb. 18 — Mayor Gavin Newsom, the man behind San Francisco's week-old policy allowing same-sex marriages, sported a wide grin on Wednesday.

Opponents of the policy had fared poorly in the courts, and the line of gay and lesbian couples waiting for marriage licenses at City Hall remained long and boisterous.

Beneath the smile, the mayor, 42 days into his job, was feeling the weight of his decision to place the city and his young career at the center of a heated national debate.

In Washington, President Bush told reporters that he was "troubled by what I've seen" in San Francisco. Some of Mr. Newsom's supporters were worried that he had veered off course. Even some same-sex couples in line for marriage licenses questioned Mr. Newsom's motives.

For Mr. Newsom, a millionaire businessman who was branded the conservative candidate in mayoral election last fall — an opponent's campaign posters tried to link Mr. Newsom with President Bush and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger — this was a road no one had imagined.

"Most politicians don't get away with doing the right thing at a time when society is not necessarily unanimously ready for that," Mr. Newsom, a Democrat, said in an interview.

The new policy was such uncharted territory that Mr. Newsom had not even told his wife, the television commentator Kimberly Guilfoyle Newsom, until he had set it in motion.

In addition to deflecting the outrage of people like the Rev. Lou P. Sheldon of the Traditional Values Coalition, Mr. Newsom said, he faces surprisingly icy reactions from some in his own Irish Catholic family.

"I did it because I thought it was right," he said, "and those are the easiest decisions, and the toughest political decisions. Easiest decisions because you just know it is the right thing — but the politics of it.

"My God, how do I explain this to family member X? How do I explain this to the person who married my wife and I in one of the most traditional Catholic weddings two years ago?"

In the interview in his office in City Hall, Mr. Newsom, 36, stood by the decision to recognize same-sex marriages, describing his motives as pure and principled and grounded in guarantees of equality in the state's Constitution. But he also promised to "step down" on the policy if the courts ruled against it, saying his main objective, to put a "human face" on the gay marriage debate nationwide, had been achieved.

"I just say to the president," Mr. Newsom said, " `Come out and meet with the three-plus thousand couples that have committed themselves to one another, committed to a long-term loving relationship with equal status, the same status that he and his wife are afforded. And recognize the spirit and the pride that comes with that.' "

As for conservative critics, Mr. Newsom said he wore their enmity as "a code of distinction."

"That is an honor that I am happy to accept," he said. "I mean that sincerely. I have been befuddled by conservatives who talk about taking away rights, yet they claim to be conservatives. The hypocrisy to me is extraordinarily grand."

Though Mr. Newsom long ago said he favored same-sex marriage, the topic was not a major issue in the mayoral election or in his terms as a county supervisor. Before Mr. Newsom became mayor, his career was mostly distinguished by his efforts to crack down on the homeless problem, a position that endeared him to the business community and helped secure his victory in a tight nonpartisan runoff election.

Mr. Newsom still says homelessness is a major passion, saying a day does not go by when he does not devote some time to it.

He has also spent many of his first days in office shaking up city government in other ways. He appointed the first fire chief who is a woman and dragged several department heads to a run-down housing project and demanded explanations for its disrepair. And he recently agreed to a budget request to buy automated sidewalk cleaners only after insisting on testing one himself.

But less than two weeks after his inauguration on Jan. 8, Mr. Newsom found himself sidetracked by what quickly became the defining issue of his career so far. It began with an invitation from Representative Nancy Pelosi, a longtime family friend who represents the San Francisco region, to attend President Bush's State of the Union address.

It was there, sitting in Washington, that Mr. Newsom heard Mr. Bush speak against same-sex marriages.

"I was there and I just was scratching my head, saying this was not the world that I grew up aspiring to live in, that he was talking about," Mr. Newsom said. "I just found some of the words quite divisive."

When Mr. Newsom returned to San Francisco, he said, he read the court decisions that authorized gay marriage in Massachusetts, as well as the United States Supreme Court ruling last year on sodomy. As he mulled those precedents and Mr. Bush's comments, he said, he became convinced that he had a moral obligation to open the doors to same-sex marriages.

Unlike many other big-city mayors, Mr. Newsom had the ability to do so because San Francisco is both a city and a county, and in California, marriage licenses are a county responsibility.

"He is president of the United States, and I am just a guy who does stop signs and tries to revitalize parks," Mr. Newsom said. "I know my role. But I also know that I've got an obligation that I took seriously to defend the Constitution. There is simply no provision that allows me to discriminate."

Mr. Newsom acknowledged that it was a difficult path from that realization to the first same-sex wedding ceremony at 11:06 a.m. last Thursday. He said some of his top advisers had strongly recommended against the new policy because of the political fallout.

With business acumen, money, good looks and friends in the right places, Mr. Newsom has been promoted by many Democrats as a rising star. Some people suggested he wait and let the courts tackle the issue.

But Mr. Newsom said he had no patience for a long court battle.

"It was an easy argument, I imagine, between 1948 and 1967, when we all waited around for the courts of this country to recognize interracial marriages," Mr. Newsom said. "There are certain principles in life that transcend patience, and one of them to me is the obligation not to discriminate against people."

It was not long, he said, before his entire staff was on board. Soon the excitement unleashed downstairs swept the second-floor mayor's office, so much so that on Friday Mr. Newsom broke his rule of "not making this about me" and officiated at two same-sex weddings that involved people who worked for him.

"I think it is going to be a very rocky road," Mr. Newsom said. "I think at the end of the day people will say he didn't need to do that. And, boy, look what he sacrificed to do that. Look what he could have done. Look at what, some will say, he should have done. I know that."

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