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The Trouble With Engagement Rings

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MoonWater

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BOO!

I am not swayed either!
 
Me Either!

I''d be more than happy to buy my SO an engagement ring if he''d actually want one and actually wear it.

I don''t care what the old traditions say I like having a ring on my finger that tells everyone I''m taken (in fact I sometimes wear a fake one when I don''t want to be bothered).
 
I think it''s interesting that in the last paragraph the author admitted to accepting an engagement ring...
 
I think that it is actually a really well-written article. Not that I agree with everything (especially the "ownership" part) but it would be foolish to think that giving or receiving a diamond e-ring did have nothing to do with a tradition that was created by the diamond industry and taken over as the norm in the engagement process. To what degree the diamond industry is meeting an "honest demand" for diamond e-rings versus a "forced demand" based on tradition and societal pressures, inclduding those from ladies in waiting is up for debate I guess!
 
I think the author is being a bit simplistic about it here:

"Many women hope for a marriage in which housework, child-rearing, and breadwinning are equitably divided. The engagement ring doesn''t fit into this intellectual framework. Rather, its presence on a woman''s finger suggests that she needs to trap a man into "commitment" or be damaged if he leaves."

This assertion is based on outdated social morés, which the author cites in the preceding paragraph). Does an engagement ring today really suggest that a man has been ''trapped''? Really?

Does anyone know if an engagement is legally recognised in the States without a ring? Over here an engagement won''t be recognised by the courts without a ring. It doesn''t have to be a diamond ring, but there has to be a ring (and obviously this point is moot if engagment brings no legal benefits in the States - it does over here).
 
I don''t think that we have any legal rights here in the US-with or without a ring, Delster. What kind of legal rights do you guys get?
 
We have laws that protect marital property. For example, a family home must be in joint names, and one spouse can't sell the home without the express written consent of the other. Some (not all) of these protections are extended to engaged couples - here's an example.

ETA - the requirement to produce a ring as evidence is an old common law rule, and I believe that evolved from the case law charted in the article under discussion.
 
I understand the author''s point about the woman getting an engagement ring and how unfair that seems. I sometimes think that when I read various posts. Both parties want everything to be equal. Except he should buy the ring and chose when to give it to her. But this really only counts if you see it as unfair. If you want a ring, he wants to buy you a ring, you don''t mind being marked taken, and he doesn''t mind being "trapped" then really, why does it matter.
 
Date: 5/13/2008 5:13:42 PM
Author: KCCutie
Me Either!

I''d be more than happy to buy my SO an engagement ring if he''d actually want one and actually wear it.

I don''t care what the old traditions say I like having a ring on my finger that tells everyone I''m taken (in fact I sometimes wear a fake one when I don''t want to be bothered).
Haha me too! I would so buy him a ring but there is no way in hell he''d wear it. I''m actually surprised we found a Wband he liked. Also, I totally LOVE that a ring on my finger tells guys to LEAVE ME ALONE! That''s exactly why I wore my first anni present (a pink sapphire ring) on my finger for 4 years. Originally, it was because it was too big for my right hand but then when I realized I was getting harrassed a lot less, I left it there. I swear, I would get harrassed so often it drove me mad. I''ve noticed that not one guy has hit on me since I got the real thing. WOO HOO!! Bling bling all in your face, leave me alone! lol
 
Date: 5/14/2008 2:01:30 PM
Author: Delster
We have laws that protect marital property. For example, a family home must be in joint names, and one spouse can''t sell the home without the express written consent of the other. Some (not all) of these protections are extended to engaged couples - here''s an example.

ETA - the requirement to produce a ring as evidence is an old common law rule, and I believe that evolved from the case law charted in the article under discussion.
Ok, the more I read from you, the more I want to move to Ireland.
 
"Also, I totally LOVE that a ring on my finger tells guys to LEAVE ME ALONE!"
Good point Moonwater. I think that the idea that, without a ring, women would be as likely or more "free" to screw around quite insulting. Same for men who apparently don''t have anything else in mind than locking their fiancees away and having a good time with the (other) ladies. Give me a break.
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I agree with you Rob. how insulting. I don''t wear a ring now but that doesn''t mean I''m more likely to be cheating on my BF. I''m definitely looking forward to being left alone once I get my ring. Lol not that I think i''m so cute or anything but you get the idea.

Anyway, I think there was a thread a while back about getting men engagement presents-- like a nice watch. Sure it doesn''t have the same symbolic effect to the rest of the world but I see it (the ring and the watch) as a huge symbol of love b/w me and my future FI. Screw everyone else, in my opinion. I''m all for women being independent, but come on. It''s 2008. Besides who doesn''t want a sparkly ring anyway??
 
Date: 5/14/2008 4:34:03 PM
Author: rob09
''Also, I totally LOVE that a ring on my finger tells guys to LEAVE ME ALONE!''

Good point Moonwater. I think that the idea that, without a ring, women would be as likely or more ''free'' to screw around quite insulting. Same for men who apparently don''t have anything else in mind than locking their fiancees away and having a good time with the (other) ladies. Give me a break.
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I''m...not sure that''s what was meant by that comment. I have been wearing a ring that my boyfriend gave me--not an engagement ring, we''re going to shop together and buy it together--and it tends to let guys know where they stand if they interpret a ring on a woman''s finger as something that a significant other has given her. This is not the case with all guys, but most will see a ring, assume that she''s taken, and not hit on her. Some ladies get hit on more often when they don''t wear a ring because more guys assume she is available. It''s like a sign to guys for them not to bother hitting on her because she''s not interested. I think extending that to assume that women without rings feel free to screw around or that men want to ''locking their fiancees away'' by giving them a ring is seeing the worst in Moonwater''s statement.
 
Date: 5/14/2008 4:34:03 PM
Author: rob09
''Also, I totally LOVE that a ring on my finger tells guys to LEAVE ME ALONE!''
Good point Moonwater. I think that the idea that, without a ring, women would be as likely or more ''free'' to screw around quite insulting. Same for men who apparently don''t have anything else in mind than locking their fiancees away and having a good time with the (other) ladies. Give me a break.
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Yeah that was a pretty bad thing to think. Shame! What''s the point in getting married in the first place when you look at it like that.
 
Date: 5/14/2008 5:09:12 PM
Author: gwendolyn


Date: 5/14/2008 4:34:03 PM
Author: rob09
'Also, I totally LOVE that a ring on my finger tells guys to LEAVE ME ALONE!'

Good point Moonwater. I think that the idea that, without a ring, women would be as likely or more 'free' to screw around quite insulting. Same for men who apparently don't have anything else in mind than locking their fiancees away and having a good time with the (other) ladies. Give me a break.
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I'm...not sure that's what was meant by that comment. I have been wearing a ring that my boyfriend gave me--not an engagement ring, we're going to shop together and buy it together--and it tends to let guys know where they stand if they interpret a ring on a woman's finger as something that a significant other has given her. This is not the case with all guys, but most will see a ring, assume that she's taken, and not hit on her. Some ladies get hit on more often when they don't wear a ring because more guys assume she is available. It's like a sign to guys for them not to bother hitting on her because she's not interested. I think extending that to assume that women without rings feel free to screw around or that men want to 'locking their fiancees away' by giving them a ring is seeing the worst in Moonwater's statement.
Thanks for the defense Gwen but I'm pretty sure the author of the article implied that's what the ring/lack of ring meant.

See the quoted portion below:

"For those who aren't bothered by the finer points of gender equity, an engagement ring clearly makes a claim about the status of a woman's sexual currency. It's a big, shiny NO TRESPASSING sign, stating that the woman wearing it has been bought and paid for, while her beau is out there sign-free and all too easily trespassable, until the wedding."
 
Date: 5/14/2008 2:50:52 PM
Author: MoonWater

Date: 5/14/2008 2:01:30 PM
Author: Delster
We have laws that protect marital property. For example, a family home must be in joint names, and one spouse can''t sell the home without the express written consent of the other. Some (not all) of these protections are extended to engaged couples - here''s an example.

ETA - the requirement to produce a ring as evidence is an old common law rule, and I believe that evolved from the case law charted in the article under discussion.
Ok, the more I read from you, the more I want to move to Ireland.
Come on over! The sun is shining over here today and really there''s nowhere else like Ireland on a sunny day! I love it here!
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I don''t get the whole ''the ring will make guys leave me alone'' thing. I literally never have that problem. Maybe this is a cultural thing. Irish guys are very shy and extremely polite. I have literally never had an Irish guy walk up to me in a bar and start chatting to me, or send over a drink, or ask for my phone number. It just doesn''t happen here. And I''m not sure the engagement ring would work anyways, as most of them have no idea what finger it goes on, and would simply never check.
 
Date: 5/15/2008 12:12:45 PM
Author: Delster
I don''t get the whole ''the ring will make guys leave me alone'' thing. I literally never have that problem. Maybe this is a cultural thing. Irish guys are very shy and extremely polite. I have literally never had an Irish guy walk up to me in a bar and start chatting to me, or send over a drink, or ask for my phone number. It just doesn''t happen here. And I''m not sure the engagement ring would work anyways, as most of them have no idea what finger it goes on, and would simply never check.
Just out of curiousity, how do guys in Ireland meet women if they''re always too shy to walk over and chat, or ask for phone numbers? Do they only meet through other friends introductions? Wow, that makes dating kinda hard
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Well I think we just don't have the same kind of dating scene you have in the States. Most people would meet their SO through friends, in school, at university, or maybe at work. In those scenarios, things usually simmer over a few days/weeks/months (or years in my case!
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) and eventually either (a) they hook up on a night out (most common with younger people) or (b) the guy asks the girl on a 'date' (rarer, and more of a 'grown up' way of going about things). BF and I got together after he offered to cook me dinner and made a point of informing me it was 'a date'. It was the first 'date' I'd ever been on! We don't even use the language of 'dating' or 'dates'.

Maybe it would help if I explain that Irish people seriously only socialise in groups in pubs or nightclubs. The pub is the social scene in Ireland, and people literally don't socialise anywhere else. Even if you never drink, you still socialise in the pub for the music and the chat and the company of your friends (the 'craic'). Guys don't 'ask girls out' usually. What most often happens is you'll get a group of guys approaching a group of girls, some of them hit it off and might end up in pairs all night, and so a relationship might start... If a guy meets a girl he likes, he'll either wait until the next opportunity of bumping into her, or he might get her phone number and then they'll orchestrate it so that the groups meet up again. In my experience a man will only make a move all on his own out on a dancefloor, after a few drinks
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Irish guys are very slow to chat a girl up. They are polite to the extreme and at the first hint of a brush-off they'll be gone. It is extremely rare to be hassled with male attention. The only exception would be in rowdy student nightclubs where everyone is a bit drunk, and even then one icy look is nearly always enough to send them scampering off with their tail between their legs.

I don't know anyone who met someone through Internet dating but from listening to my students Bebo flirting is rampant
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I sound like David Attenborough - an account of the mating rituals of the lesser spotted romantic Irish male!
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ETA - I don't mean to paint a utopian picture of an innocent Ireland where no girl ever receives unwanted attention and all men are like Mr D'Arcy. We do have our problems with date rape and sexual assaults. But for the most part, Irish men are very gentle and if they do make a move they build up to it slowly so you can deflect it before it happens, and if they do get that far they are very easily brushed off
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Well FI is part Irish, does that count? Seriously, I really want to visit. I only had three dates in my entire life and two were horrible (same guy, I was trying to be nice when I did the second date. the other date was with FI but we had hung out with mutual friends beforehand). I would much prefer to get to know a person through a group of friends and socializing at a pub. Seriously, that sounds heavenly to me!

Incidentally that's how FI and I met. A group of shared friends. We knew each other for years (or rather he knew me, I never fully paid attention to him). Eventually we had a one on one conversation and I decided he was a great guy. Still didn't occur to me to date him or anything. That happened a few months later.

I have a friend from Europe that pointed out I have a lot of European habits. I never even realized but I swear, the more I learn, the more I've noticed that I should probably move! lol

ETA: Guys can be very aggressive here. Very rude (and that's me choosing to use a nice word because I'm on PS). Seriously, it can go as far as touching. Funny I can actually remember one time me and FI (then BF) were at a bar sitting down. He got up to get us a drink and not even five seconds after he left a guy approached me. WTF?
 
Date: 5/14/2008 2:48:38 PM
Author: MoonWater
Date: 5/13/2008 5:13:42 PM

Author: KCCutie

Me Either!


I''d be more than happy to buy my SO an engagement ring if he''d actually want one and actually wear it.


I don''t care what the old traditions say I like having a ring on my finger that tells everyone I''m taken (in fact I sometimes wear a fake one when I don''t want to be bothered).

Haha me too! I would so buy him a ring but there is no way in hell he''d wear it. I''m actually surprised we found a Wband he liked. Also, I totally LOVE that a ring on my finger tells guys to LEAVE ME ALONE! That''s exactly why I wore my first anni present (a pink sapphire ring) on my finger for 4 years. Originally, it was because it was too big for my right hand but then when I realized I was getting harrassed a lot less, I left it there. I swear, I would get harrassed so often it drove me mad. I''ve noticed that not one guy has hit on me since I got the real thing. WOO HOO!! Bling bling all in your face, leave me alone! lol

HaHa! I''m looking into buying my SO a ring right now....not b/c I want him marked as taken, but b/c he likes accessories. I swear the man wears more jewelry than I do when we go out.
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No really it''s adorable...it''s just him and I love that about him. Anyways he''s Swedish and in Sweden apparently the man and woman both wear engagement rings. So I thought it would be appropriate and fun. Of course I don''t expect him to wear it on his left hand and not all the time (unless he really wants to). I started a thread over in colored stones today to start looking into it.

I think if it''s tradition or if the guy wants to wear an engagement ring it is a really sweet gesture. My best friend''s ex-husband wore an e-ring when they were engaged b/c he wanted to. Obviously he''s not the majority but it''s not unheard of.
 
My guy doesn't wear much jewelry (actually, no jewelry except a watch, although he says he'll have no problem with a wedding ring), but he's super excited about getting a really high-end watch as an engagement gift. I think I've posted about it before, but when he first found out I wanted to buy him a watch as an engagement gift, his reaction was "That's awesome! Then if I get hit on, I can be like, 'back off, lady--didn't you see the watch?'"
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A friend of mine who''s an ardent feminist has an interesting take on a related issue: she says, "As long as I''m making 70 cents on a man''s dollar, he can damn well pick up the tab on dates." I ... have mixed feelings about this, because I think it can contribute to a "having-it-both-ways" take on gender relations (equality AND all the privileges of traditional femininity), but, despite those mixed feelings, I still have an engagement ring that I love. Then again, so did my sweetie ... like KCCutie, I''m with a Swede, so we observed both traditions: I wore a traditional engagement ring, and we both wore matching engagement bands. I think there can be some awkwardness surrounding the ring: it *is* a demonstration of the man''s wealth as it''s typically enacted, it is somewhat one-way, it is a constructed tradition. But, we have to pick our battles ... and with this one, I honestly don''t think the answer is the eradication of all chivalry. I think the answer is the introduction of parity ... with women holding doors for men TOO, and buying dinner for men TOO, and, yes, providing engagement rings TOO. It''ll be interesting to see how matters stand in 20 years or so ....
 
Date: 5/15/2008 6:57:38 PM
Author: ladypirate
My guy doesn't wear much jewelry (actually, no jewelry except a watch, although he says he'll have no problem with a wedding ring), but he's super excited about getting a really high-end watch as an engagement gift. I think I've posted about it before, but when he first found out I wanted to buy him a watch as an engagement gift, his reaction was 'That's awesome! Then if I get hit on, I can be like, 'back off, lady--didn't you see the watch?'
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LOL you are too funny. I think you mentioned this watch before. I wish my FI wanted a watch, I would be happy to buy him one.

I would love to see what represents an engagement ring for a Swedish man. Is it just a plain band? How do you distinguish it from a traditional wedding band?

I love PS, I get to learn so much about different cultures.
 
Date: 5/16/2008 5:54:27 PM
Author: Circe
A friend of mine who''s an ardent feminist has an interesting take on a related issue: she says, ''As long as I''m making 70 cents on a man''s dollar, he can damn well pick up the tab on dates.'' I ... have mixed feelings about this, because I think it can contribute to a ''having-it-both-ways'' take on gender relations (equality AND all the privileges of traditional femininity), but, despite those mixed feelings, I still have an engagement ring that I love. Then again, so did my sweetie ... like KCCutie, I''m with a Swede, so we observed both traditions: I wore a traditional engagement ring, and we both wore matching engagement bands. I think there can be some awkwardness surrounding the ring: it *is* a demonstration of the man''s wealth as it''s typically enacted, it is somewhat one-way, it is a constructed tradition. But, we have to pick our battles ... and with this one, I honestly don''t think the answer is the eradication of all chivalry. I think the answer is the introduction of parity ... with women holding doors for men TOO, and buying dinner for men TOO, and, yes, providing engagement rings TOO. It''ll be interesting to see how matters stand in 20 years or so ....
Ha! It''s so funny you brought this topic up. I have a friend I''ve been discussing this with recently. She''s from Lithuania and is rather shocked at the lack of chivalry in the States which seems to be a result of equality for women. She doesn''t understand why equal rights for women translates into men not being able to hold a door or pay for dinner occasionally. I agree, it should go both ways but equality shouldn''t mean men can simply be rude. Geez.
 
The only correct response to this article is "So? And your point would be?".
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