The W (window) - Thread

[Anne111]

I hope it is OK if I start this new thread here. I imagine two goals:

1. Discuss the general features, pros-cons, trade-offs, value influence of different window types
2. Show gems to the 'experienced others' in order to evaluate their 'Ws' (shall we use this abbreviation?) in gems we plan to buy or have bought

Does this make sense? I'd like to start with a definition I got from a trusted vendor's site:

"Window: See-through center of a shallow stone. Windows are disturbing in light colored stone because they create a "fish-eye" effect and do not reflect light in the center. The darker or more intense a color, the less a window is to be worried about. You may snatch a color bargain if you don't bother about a window. Also, there will always be a trade-off between a window and a big face: the bigger a window, the bigger the face of a gem (visible upper part) with the same carat weight to pay for."

Does this describe the main issue?

 

[chrono]

A window does not make a gem appear bigger but a large table might. The biggest drawback to a window in any gem is that the center doesn’t reflect light, so that the middle looks dead whilst only the edges sparkle.

I think what that person is saying is that a shallower stone usually has a larger face up measurement (lxw) because there’s not much material in a low crown.

2 stones of 2 ct each
Stone A: no window, high crown, super sparkly, proper measurement
Stone B: windowed, low crown, lifeless, larger LxW measurement.

I’m fine with a small window and there’s things I can do to minimize its appearance. A small window doesn’t affect the liveliness of a gem too much either.

 

[minousbijoux]

I'm linking some old threads on Windows which may be helpful:

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-am-so-mad-about-windows.167443/

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/window-shutters.172386/

There is also the good - and oft reposted here - visual/photo showing a windowed stone sitting on newsprint, where you can read the words right through the stone. I believe its in the pinned beginner thread on colored stones.

 

[Anne111]

Yes, the on-newspaper-test is very commonly recommended, but few traders make such photos and when I try myself it seems that every gem has some angle under which I could read through it, and some where I can't.
For example my avatar has no W (I'm 99.9% sure) but if you imagine it would sit on a newspaper as it is, you would probably see the letters at least in some areas.
The newspaper trick seems to work best for very obvious cases, but in brighter colors and not so clear-cut (again bad choice of words) cases every gem allows a bit of letter reading but does not necessarily have a value-diminishing W.
Finally, most gems get set with some open space behind them, or skin or metal behind, never newspapers, so I'm a bit unhappy with that test to qualify if a gem suffers from a W after setting.
Are there any better rules or test around? Especially when the gem is still with the trader?

 

[Rfisher]

Maybe a window.
You think it'd close up with the right setting?

 

[chrono]

Looking at your pic @Rfisher
Your stone isn’t windowed but has an easily seen tilt window. The reason I say that is because I can still make out the pavilion facets leading to the culet, even though it is faint.

@Anne111
True windows can be assessed on any surface but the key is whether you’ve learned to spot them. First and foremost, it is only when viewed exactly perpendicular to the table. Any windows you see when the stone is tilted, no matter how small or large the angle is, it’s a tilt window.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Maybe a window.
You think it'd close up with the right setting?

I was actually surprised that this stone was advertised as an OEC. It lacks everything I love about OEC's such as tiny tables, flowery facets and any kozibe effect.

 

[Bron357]

Most people who own jewellery with coloured gems wouldn’t even know what a “window” in a gem was.
With coloured gems I still think the two most important and obvious characteristics are colour and size.
Countless are the large (and very expensive) Aquamarine set rings that have HUGE windows ie see straight through to the finger, yet people still love them and buy them. Maybe because that’s the apparent “standard” they don’t consider it a negative aspect.
As one gets more educated and more discerning and with the emergence of gem cutters who cut for performance not carat weight, some very stunning coloured gems are available to buy.
However gems, even with considerable windows can be attractive and desirable. Old Rose cut diamonds are not cut in a way that’s close to capturing the fire and scintillation of a round brilliant cut, yet they are still wanted.
So don’t totally discount a gem with a “window” if the colour, shape and size appeal to you.

 

[Bron357]

I was actually surprised that this stone was advertised as an OEC. It lacks everything I love about OEC's such as tiny tables, flowery facets and any kozibe effect.

Um, that no OEC, not even close me thinks.

 

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Um, that no OEC, not even close me thinks.

It is as if a rose cut diamond and an OEC got together one night and this was the result.

 

[Rfisher]

Yeah-
I was just thinking that when I saw it on LT
Labeled OMC or OEC aside, I've never seen something look like this before that wasn't cut like a rose/double rose or those portrait ones.
I'm sure there's someone out there for this stone.
I was being sarcastic a bit about the setting remark.

I was actually surprised that this stone was advertised as an OEC. It lacks everything I love about OEC's such as tiny tables, flowery facets and any kozibe effect.

 

[Anne111]

All true, looking around, even amongst sophisticated jewelery-wearers more than 50% of all gems have W, even 75%, sometimes badly so and ugly, but people also love their ugly dogs too, right?.

Yet, when you scroll through evaluation here on PS, most often (after color) is bad cut = W

Exception would be found only in white diamonds. I know they are not really part here, but it seems that the long mass-production of white diamonds has developped cuts without Ws. Since white diamonds are financial black-hole in general, one finds no solace there. Fine CS without W remain a rarity.

Does anybody have examples of gems where the W is neutral or even plays into the beauty of the piece? Can a W be used to a gems advatange?

 

[chrono]

I’ve seen a few modern designs that puts another gem or decoration underneath the stone so as to be easily seen through the W.

 

[chatoyancy]

It is as if a rose cut diamond and an OEC got together one night and this was the result.

Lol!!

 

[Anne111]

Forgive my no-know. I tried to google but can't get answers.
What is OEC, OMC?

 

[737liz]

@Anne111
OEC= old european cut diamond
OMC= old mine cut diamond

I was at GEMGeneve this past weekend ( trying to replace Baselworld for gems and jewellery) and bought a silver grey spinel with a small W. It is an elongated cushion, mixed cut, with an almost scissor step cut pavillion . Because it is going to be set east/west in palladium, I had no problem with the W, since the grey metal will be directly under the grey spinel. It was an easy compromise seeing as the other two greys were at 5k loose and 15k set . For the right price or color, a window isn't all that detrimental to me, as I can't afford top color, cut and size. Sometimes I compromise.

 

[voce]

Forgive my no-know. I tried to google but can't get answers.
What is OEC, OMC?

I didn't know myself until recently. Here's a couple of articles talking about the OEC and OMC and showing the OEC.

https://www.worthy.com/blog/diamond-spotlight/gem-portrait-old-european-cut-diamonds-2/

http://www.torraca.net/2016/09/05/oec/

P. Torraca said that round brilliant cuts are like light reflecting off a rippling brook and OECs are like light reflecting off a gently flowing stream. Having seen his OECs, I would say I may actually prefer it to round brilliant.

 

[Anne111]

thanks all.

737, do you mean 5000 euro for a grey spinel? I thought those were cheap gems?

 

[737liz]

"@Anne111 USD 5000, yep! Below is what I settled for- tiny 6.7x5.4mm, great (absence of) color, liveable window and a price in the hundreds not thousands. I taped it to a platinum band and the window disappeared so I'm hoping I've gotten away with it. The rest of the stone is lively.

 

[Anne111]

You say grey spinels are as or more expensive than great blue sapphires, or even diamonds? Am I missing something?

 

[737liz]

You say grey spinels are as or more expensive than great blue sapphires, or even diamonds? Am I missing something?

No, I'm saying the fair was overpriced. It was aimed at people in the trade to make connections etc. I'm guessing you're supposed to haggle like you're in a souk... but if you have any 5 carat cornflower blues or better yet, diamonds to sell for 5k, consider them sold to me! That would be quite the bargain!