Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy input

[wyered1]

Looking for comments/thoughts or tell me I'm being stupid. I won't be offended, diamonds are just more complicated that I ever knew.

These prices reflect me selling an old engagement ring to a wholeseller for $3500. The jeweler has refused to honor the trade-in policy unless I pay their sticker price on the diamonds... which are inflated to near Tiffany's level.

I was just about done with the jeweler and even had the below reserved at Whiteflash. After 4 months of negotiating, this is my offer (will not improve). The Whiteflash deal is great (and took no hassle), but this might be too good to pass up with the Jeweler, even though Whiteflash is much nicer to deal with.

Whiteflash deal for comparison:
http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3075977.htm
Tacori ring that I was very happy with for $2800 in Plat.
After ring, tax, and selling the old ring for $3500 my effective "out the door price" is $12,570.

Notes: SI1 was more eye-clean than a lot of VS2s I've seen. No issues with eye-clean here. H color a plus. Wish it was 1.5 carats.

Jeweler deal:
http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104069838035-PDQDFK.PDF
http://www.scottkay.com/product/m1251r510ww/
After ring, tax, and selling the old ring for $3500 my effective "out the door price" is $11,130.

Notes: Looked very nice in the store, but I trust Whiteflash ACA more. I like the ring ok, pricetag is $2710 in Plat. HCA score came out ex, ex, vg, ex. I couldn't say if the cut is better or worse visually between the two, but never got to see them together in the same lighting. This being a full 1.5 ct is a big plus. Little worried about I color, but I couldn't tell the difference between I and H at Whiteflash. VS2 gives me peace of mind over the SI1.

Looking for verification that this diamond is an ideal cut by PS standards and I'm making the wiser choice. I didn't intend on a 60/60 diamond, but this one seems to fit the bill giving me the excellent spread with angles that give excellent light performance. And the price seems too good to be true, granted the price SHOULD be even less if I was getting full value on my "trade-in policy" and their prices were similar to Whiteflash. The reason they are refusing is that I paid WAY WAY too much for the last e-ring (never used), so much so it would be iffy if they could find someone dumb enough to buy it for what I did... the folks at Whiteflash said they would list it around $4800 if they were to stock it (they wouldn't), and I paid $6700 9 years ago.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Anthony

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

those are two different style stones.

The 1.5 I color is a 60/60.

The 1.4 H color is a tolkowsky cut style.

The spread difference is pretty impressive.

The ACA is: 7.15x7.18x4.44

The 60/60 is: 7.41 - 7.43


That's a HUGE difference. AND it's less expensive. And Scott Kay's pave is fantastic. I would go for the 60/60.

The color difference isn't huge at all.

 

[wyered1]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

Talkowsky cut style... New term for me. I'll look that up. Thanks.

Those were my thoughts... I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something on the report that more experienced diamond buyers would see as a red flag that made this deal not as sweet as I am thinking. Because if I can hit the VS2 mark AND the 1.5ct mark AND save money while keeping AGS000... I think I can ignore how frustrated I am with the jewelers listed prices for now.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/tolkowsky-ideal-cut-diamond

 

[John P]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

...while keeping AGS000...

True. Although the jeweler chose the DQD format, with no ASET imprint, rather than the more thorough platinum report.
https://www.agslab.com/products-platinum-diamond-quality-document.php

That may have to do with the make-difference Gypsy mentioned, coupled with a somewhat unconventional proportions-choice.

To explain:

60-60 makes typically have larger tables, lower crowns and longer lower halves than Tolk/Ideal makes. The 60-60 look is balanced more towards brightness than dispersion, frequently with a bit more spread for the carat weight. The 60-60 hit its stride in the USA in the 70s and 80s, looking spectacular under jewelry store lights and permitting manufacturers a bit more yield with secondary stones.

With that said, the lower-half choice of 75% is somewhat unconventional for a 60-60. It was likely made to save that all-important 1.50 mark. Here's what I mean:

The wire-frame on the left is conventional for a 60-60 of these proportions, planned with long lower halves.
The wire-frame on the right has shortened lower halves, giving more surface area to the main pavilion facets (shaded).



By increasing the surface area of those bottommost main facets ever-so-slightly the result shifts from 1.49X...



To 1.50X - or 1.503 in this specific case.



This is really some masterful planning in terms of saving a value-mark. It does, however, change the "usual" contrast pattern and 60-60 appearance. It would have been nice if the Platinum report format had been chosen so we could see the actual ASET imprint; the ones I created are simulations which use the correct numbers but assume 'perfect' wire-frames. In any event, those wider mains result in a bit more obstruction then one typically sees in this make.

The biggest plus is that the overall combination was enough to meet AGSL's requirements for 0 performance. Of course there are higher and lower performing diamonds within AGS 0. If it matters to you, you can easily make comparisons to known high-performers though a range of lighting conditions, especially soft lighting in this case (even under the counter in the store, compared to another Ideal make) to see how the specific table-LH combo strikes your eyes.

With the above posted that's actually more important than any of the technical comments: Do you love it personally, and feel you're getting top quality and value.

 

[wyered1]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

Thank you so much for the information. Exactly what I was looking for. I did notice it didn't have ASET info on the report, but I don't know how important that will be to me in the long run. How hard is it to get the premium report? Have to send in the diamond?

To address the last question and most important one: I don't know, that's why I'm here. I feel right now that the deal is so good I want them to charge me in full immediately so they can't change their mind. I came here for confidence in that feeling. Do you see other diamonds with larger "obstruction" as you've shown that have above par light performance in the AGS0 cut quality? I visually had no complaints at all when looking at it. It was as pretty as any diamond I've seen but I'm no expert nor trained to know what to look for. As I've lost trust in the jeweler I didn't want to rely on their word alone. So I came here. I feel that for the price I'm getting I can't find a comparable one online or anywhere so I think it is a good value and it meets the specs I was looking for. I figured going with AGS000, VS2, and no less than I color would make it at least likely I will get a valuable and nice stone. That I can be proud of the rest of my life rather than have regrets of not shopping hard enough. And my goal was 1.5 carats so I didn't have to say a carat and a half to my girlfriend and in the back of my head know it was a little shy of the mark.

Without further information known, and the detailed information you've shown... Can you conclude it is highly likely that this diamond is a quality stone at this price point. I'm essentially being charged $11,800 for it. The cheaper 1.5, VS2, I of the two I viewed at WF was not completely eye clean, and the one at $14k was very nice, but obviously more expensive and I don't know that there was any visual difference to me as I didn't see the two together. But I would think these diamonds would be valued very close to each other and I'm getting nearly $3000 cheaper here. And that money gets it inside my budget.

I am interested in seeing this under low light as you suggest. Maybe it doesn't perform well then. I'll give it a shot when I can. The jeweler is however not local to me so I may end up going with it without seeing it again, and have it set.

 

[John P]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

Thank you so much for the information. Exactly what I was looking for. I did notice it didn't have ASET info on the report, but I don't know how important that will be to me in the long run. How hard is it to get the premium report? Have to send in the diamond?

AGSL has all of the information. A "Platinum DLP" report could be requested, which would have both crown and pavilion imprints. What's more, I imagine they'd only charge for a duplicate report, rather than full grading (since they already graded it).

To address the last question and most important one: I don't know, that's why I'm here. I feel right now that the deal is so good I want them to charge me in full immediately so they can't change their mind.

I may not be following the story correctly, but when you said this... <<granted the price SHOULD be even less if I was getting full value on my "trade-in policy" and their prices were similar to Whiteflash. The reason they are refusing is that I paid WAY WAY too much for the last e-ring (never used), so much so it would be iffy if they could find someone dumb enough to buy it for what I did... the folks at Whiteflash said they would list it around $4800 if they were to stock it (they wouldn't), and I paid $6700 9 years ago.>>

Does that refer to the same people you're looking at buying-from again?

For me, that's a question of principal and of extending a relationship that sounds like it's already put you over a barrel? Different strokes, so it may not be a concern for you. Or I may be misunderstanding the situation?

Do you see other diamonds with larger "obstruction" as you've shown that have above par light performance in the AGS0 cut quality? I visually had no complaints at all when looking at it. It was as pretty as any diamond I've seen but I'm no expert nor trained to know what to look for.

I'm a major proponent of top cut-quality, regardless of make. The 60-60 has great appeal when optimized for its character. I've seen plenty that I love, but for me that aesthetic is part-and-parcel of the way the larger table and long lower halves work together. From the numbers, this one is an odd duck that's not optimized for the usual brightness. I want to be clear: That is not necessarily bad, as the wider main facets will create larger flashes in bright conditions. My concerns would be about low-light conditions, relative to my own expectations which I fully-admit are pretty nuclear. But it's possible in explaining the deal. Your jeweler may be acquiring it for a great price.

I feel that for the price I'm getting I can't find a comparable one online or anywhere so I think it is a good value and it meets the specs I was looking for. I figured going with AGS000, VS2, and no less than I color would make it at least likely I will get a valuable and nice stone. That I can be proud of the rest of my life rather than have regrets of not shopping hard enough. And my goal was 1.5 carats so I didn't have to say a carat and a half to my girlfriend and in the back of my head know it was a little shy of the mark.

That's a matter of 'mind-clean.' If carat-weight is most important it's a totally understandable point of consideration. For what it's worth, either candidate you're considering will look bigger than the vast majority of 1.50cts out there - due to edge to edge light performance.

Without further information known, and the detailed information you've shown... Can you conclude it is highly likely that this diamond is a quality stone at this price point.

It has a strong pedigree and they're offering it at fair value relative to others in its class. A quick search here revealed 1.5X I VS2 AGS0 RBs offered above and below that price. Those final prices will depend on precise parameters, degree of gemological assessment/vetting, suite of information provided and the seller's benefits-package.

...As I've lost trust in the jeweler I didn't want to rely on their word alone. So I came here...

I'm glad you're here. Welcome!

Meanwhile, the first part of that comment distracted me when I read it. That is truly unfortunate, and I hope your experience here will restore some of your trust in the trade-at-large.

 

[wyered1]

Re: Think I found it, looking for experienced, trustworthy i

Wow. You've helped a tremendous amount. I feel "mind - clean" at this point. I'm going to go with it. I'll probably try to get the premium report.

The point on principle is where I was a week ago. I was putting preference on buying from whiteflash. I don't fault the jeweler for getting as much as possible out of the diamond 9 years ago, I'd do the same with my business. I fault my younger dumber self in that matter. I do feel anger about them giving me two prices for trade and without trade which often net zero for the trade. I also understand it makes little sense for them to give me bottom dollar on this diamond AND give me what I paid 9 years ago in trade as that would be putting them at a loss. But I do expect them to at least give me the resell, wholeseller price on the diamond which I think this deal accomplishes. In the past months every offer they have made has given me almost nothing on the trade when you factor in how much they inflated the price over a fair price. I'd still buy from Whiteflash if they were to offer me the same deal because is a no hassle establishment. Quick and easy and reliable. I can't say any of that about the jeweler.

I'm not happy it took THIS long to get an acceptable deal out of them, but I need to keep that out of the mind if I feel I'm getting the best deal from them on this important ring. It's kind of a forgiven but not forgotten deal.

Again. Thank you PS guys/gals very much for all your help. It's refreshing.