Thoughts on recent cushion purchase

[BillBigs]

I''m a longtime lurker who finally decided and purchased a stone


Here are the stats: I''d be interested in knowing what people think about this one:

Old Mine Brilliant
Cwt: 2.3
Color: G
Cl: Vs2
Polish: Ex
Sym: VG
Table: 53
Depth: 69
L/W: 1.08
GIA


Based on the pic and the stats is there anything I should be worried about? I''m currently out of the country for a few months so I''ve only seen the pics and had have the stone sent to a friend.... who gave it a thumbs up

 

[Mrs W]

I think it is absolutely beautiful! Whats not to like, its got size, color, clarity, and those chunky facets... YUM!

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 2/27/2010 5:48:33 PM
Author:BillBigs


I'm a longtime lurker who finally decided and purchased a stone


Here are the stats: I'd be interested in knowing what people think about this one:

Old Mine Brilliant
Cwt: 2.3
Color: G
Cl: Vs2
Polish: Ex
Sym: VG
Table: 53
Depth: 69
L/W: 1.08
GIA


Based on the pic and the stats is there anything I should be worried about? I'm currently out of the country for a few months so I've only seen the pics and had have the stone sent to a friend.... who gave it a thumbs up

Looks like a pretty stone I especially like the facet structure under the table where the pavillion mains are similarly sized. This stone reminds me of well cut Antique Cushions (1830-1900s) except this one was cut using modern techniques and has better symmetry and a more square girdle outline than those cut long ago. The slightly large - large culet shows a nicely pronounced Kozibe Effect (reflection of the culet onto other facets) and really highlights the high symmetry of the stone. It also has reasonable stats from the certificate, no red flags I can see, except the girdle, culet and fluorescence information were not posted.

One static photograph is not enough to tell you about the light performance of a cushion, especially one taken on top of a black background. Without an ASET image or video we won't be able to tell you about this particular aspect. It would be best to make the sale contingent on passing inspection by an appraisor, if light performance is important to you an appraisor experienced in judging the light performance of cushions would be important. David Wolf, David Atlas and Richard Sherwood would be three such appraisors I would reccomend. Notwithstanding an appraisor's opinion if you like the appearance of the stone than that is the most important factor. Make sure you view the stone in various lighting conditions (by the fireplace, at night outdoors, in bright sunlight, in incandescent lighting etc.) to form your opinion.

Which vendor did you purchase this from if you don't mind me asking?

Regards,
CCl

 

[CharmyPoo]

I love your stone. What a beauty!

 

[joelly]

I''m no expert but this stone looks good, very pretty chunks it has.

 

[Dreamer_D]

It looks lovely and would echo CCL''s suggestion of having it appraised by an expert in the area of OMBs so you can know for sure how it performs.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 2/27/2010 5:48:33 PM
Author:BillBigs


I'm a longtime lurker who finally decided and purchased a stone


Here are the stats: I'd be interested in knowing what people think about this one:

Old Mine Brilliant
Cwt: 2.3
Color: G
Cl: Vs2
Polish: Ex
Sym: VG
Table: 53
Depth: 69
L/W: 1.08
GIA


Based on the pic and the stats is there anything I should be worried about? I'm currently out of the country for a few months so I've only seen the pics and had have the stone sent to a friend.... who gave it a thumbs up

Hi Bill

The stone looks beautiful. ASET images probably won't be possible in that case as you have had the stone sent to a friend and it is no longer with the vendor, if that friend could take or ship the stone to an appraiser for you then that would tell you more about the stone if you wanted an impartial expert opinion.

appraiser tool

 

[bgray]

Its really gorgeous! the perfect cushion!

 

[BillBigs]

Thanks everyone for their thoughts and compliments. I probably should have been a little more clear in my original post, I haven''t actually purchased the stone yet but have it on hold w a deposit and plan on finishing the purchase in the next two days. I sent my friend the pic who then went to see it in person sorry for the confusion I was trying to type super quick.

Below are the other stats:
Culet: Large
Girdle: Med-Very thick
FL: None

CCL - As far as the appraisal I like the idea of doing this and believe it will bring me piece of mind. Is it common for vendors to agree to an appraisal as a contingency of the sale? Or do most consumers simply utilize the return period window to get an appraisal? Would I need to get it insured prior to sending it to an appraiser...or would I use the appraisal to get it insured (as you can tell I''m confused). Would the vendor ship it to the appraiser or would I (or in this case my friend) need to ship it to the appraiser?

Lorelei- The vendor I''m using doesn''t do ASET images....(I''ll keep the vendor nameless until I complete everything)

Please keep the suggestions coming...I should have posted my questions a week or two ago.....ugh...well better late than never

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 2/28/2010 2:46:13 PM
Author: BillBigs

CCL - As far as the appraisal I like the idea of doing this and believe it will bring me piece of mind. Is it common for vendors to agree to an appraisal as a contingency of the sale? Or do most consumers simply utilize the return period window to get an appraisal? Would I need to get it insured prior to sending it to an appraiser...or would I use the appraisal to get it insured (as you can tell I''m confused). Would the vendor ship it to the appraiser or would I (or in this case my friend) need to ship it to the appraiser?

I am not CCL but I will answer your question. It really depends on your vendor - many will require you to purchase it first before appraising. However, some vendors will let you get it appraised first as long as you cover the shipping and appraisal fees. For me, my vendors allowed this as I was concerned with a very thing girdle and I didn''t want to bother with exchange rates if the deal fell through. I chose appraisers that were known to the vendors and they were comfortble with the transaction.

This is how it played out:
1. Vendor, Appraiser, and myself agreed that the diamond will not be release by the appraiser to me until I pay for the diamond in full. The vendor will notify the appraiser when the diamond has been paid in full.
2. Vendor sends the diamond to the appraiser. Diamond was insured by Fedex during mailing and once it was received by the appraiser it was covered by the appraiser''s insurance.
3. Diamond was appraised to my satisfication.
4. I wired money to the vendor.
5. Vendor notified the appraiser.
6. Appraiser held on to the diamond until I decided who will set the diamond.
7. Appraiser sent the diamond to my setter. Diamond was covered by Fedex during shipping and the jeweler while it is in his possession.
8. To be extra safe, I am in the process of purchasing stand alone insurance before the diamond gets set.

 

[BillBigs]

CharmyPoo-

Thanks so much for the detailed breakdown it helps alot. I just have a few f/u questions. Was your primary objective for getting the appraisal for insurance purpposes or validating the cert and quality of the stone? I''m actually not even sure that those two reasons are mutually exclusive..what I''m getting at is were you worried about the independence of your appraisal since your vendor and appraier worked "together" before? Did your vendor reccommend the appraiser or did you find one?

How were you able to defer the payment to the vendor while getting the appraisal? Is this a common practice?

How is your setting search going? I saw one of your previous posts where you were looking and asking for ideas ..have you made a decision yet? Thanks for your patience in answering my detailed questions.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Date: 2/28/2010 4:25:26 PM
Author: BillBigs
CharmyPoo-

Thanks so much for the detailed breakdown it helps alot. I just have a few f/u questions. Was your primary objective for getting the appraisal for insurance purpposes or validating the cert and quality of the stone? I''m actually not even sure that those two reasons are mutually exclusive..what I''m getting at is were you worried about the independence of your appraisal since your vendor and appraier worked ''together'' before? Did your vendor reccommend the appraiser or did you find one?

How were you able to defer the payment to the vendor while getting the appraisal? Is this a common practice?

How is your setting search going? I saw one of your previous posts where you were looking and asking for ideas ..have you made a decision yet? Thanks for your patience in answering my detailed questions.

I got it appraised really just for the heck of it to be honest. I completely trusted my vendor and knew he was selling me a quality stone and knew he was honest. I was interested in hearing what the appraiser had to say and confirming that the very thin girdle areas were non-issue. I also needed a written appraisal for insurance. As a result, I went for it. There is absolutely a chance that the independent appraiser is not so independent - I also bumped into that issue in the past but I have no facts to prove it .. just a hunch.

I will add that not all appraisers are made equal. I have used several in the past and I highly recommend Richard Sherwood for cushions and antique stones. I have also heard wonderful things about Dave Atlas but I have not worked with him myself. I was looking for an appraiser who would provide detailed written analysis and Richard was the one.

I don''t think it is common practice to defer payment. I am in Canada and the vendor is in the US - I didn''t want to bother with the exchange rate several times. The vendor was very kind to accomdate me but they knew I was very serious about the purchase. I have been waiting months and months for this diamond. The payment delay was also just about a week.

I think I know how I will design my setting. I have to talk to Leon to see what he thinks but I am too busy at work right now. I will likely wait a week or so before contacting him.

 

[BillBigs]

Thanks for the information all of it is very helpful and, I appreciate it very much. Do you know how I can get into contact with Richard Sherwood or what state he is in so that I can locate him via the appraiser tool on here.

Also what do you think about crown angles greater than 40 degrees? Any concerns?

 

[CharmyPoo]

Crown angels greater than 40 are very common in older stones - I find the tall crowns very nice.

This is Richard''s site - http://www.sarasotagemlab.com. He is located in Florida.

David Atlas is in Philly if that is more convenient to you.

Please bear in mind that it cost several hundred dollars to mail a diamond.

 

[BillBigs]

Date: 2/27/2010 6:35:14 PM
Author: ChunkyCushionLover

Date: 2/27/2010 5:48:33 PM
Author:BillBigs


I''m a longtime lurker who finally decided and purchased a stone


Here are the stats: I''d be interested in knowing what people think about this one:

Old Mine Brilliant
Cwt: 2.3
Color: G
Cl: Vs2
Polish: Ex
Sym: VG
Table: 53
Depth: 69
L/W: 1.08
GIA


Based on the pic and the stats is there anything I should be worried about? I''m currently out of the country for a few months so I''ve only seen the pics and had have the stone sent to a friend.... who gave it a thumbs up

Looks like a pretty stone I especially like the facet structure under the table where the pavillion mains are similarly sized. This stone reminds me of well cut Antique Cushions (1830-1900s) except this one was cut using modern techniques and has better symmetry and a more square girdle outline than those cut long ago. The slightly large - large culet shows a nicely pronounced Kozibe Effect (reflection of the culet onto other facets) and really highlights the high symmetry of the stone. It also has reasonable stats from the certificate, no red flags I can see, except the girdle, culet and fluorescence information were not posted.

One static photograph is not enough to tell you about the light performance of a cushion, especially one taken on top of a black background. Without an ASET image or video we won''t be able to tell you about this particular aspect. It would be best to make the sale contingent on passing inspection by an appraisor, if light performance is important to you an appraisor experienced in judging the light performance of cushions would be important. David Wolf, David Atlas and Richard Sherwood would be three such appraisors I would reccomend. Notwithstanding an appraisor''s opinion if you like the appearance of the stone than that is the most important factor. Make sure you view the stone in various lighting conditions (by the fireplace, at night outdoors, in bright sunlight, in incandescent lighting etc.) to form your opinion.

Which vendor did you purchase this from if you don''t mind me asking?

Regards,
CCl

Based on feedback I received from various people including some of you on on PS I am first going to have the stone sent to an appraiser then I''m going to see the stone in person.

Now on to my questions...CCL you mentioned the Kozibe Effect in your post.... how will theculet reflection impact the fire and brilliance of the stone? Optically the Koz Effect looks nice on the photog but I am not sure how the light leakage from the culet will impact the "sparkle/rainbows" (fire + brilliance) factor of the stone. I know i''m probably over simplyfying a complex topic since the crown and pavilion angles should be taken into account when determining briliance but I''m curious.

Please share your thoughts

 

[bgray]

Bill-you asked CCL but I will chime in as well. All other things being as they should, the culet should have no effect. I have several old mine and cushion stones as well as old european cuts --all with medium to large culets. remember (usually) modern stones have smaller and more facets--older stones have larger and fewer facets. These combinations produce different kinds of light, brilliance and so forth.

 

[BillBigs]

I think there may be an over reliance on ASET images for P''scopers...it seems that many people on here are becoming paralyzed without one! I truly believe they have their value but also think that many of the people who want a high quality old cut stone (such as an OMB or CB that has been recut to modern standards) are overly fixated on the ASET. A n ASET image is a piece of the puzzle not the ENTIRE story there are many stones out there that have their own unique sense of beauty and really good specs that may or not may perform well with an ASET.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 3/13/2010 2:21:55 AM
Author: BillBigs
I think there may be an over reliance on ASET images for P'scopers...it seems that many people on here are becoming paralyzed without one! I truly believe they have their value but also think that many of the people who want a high quality old cut stone (such as an OMB or CB that has been recut to modern standards) are overly fixated on the ASET. A n ASET image is a piece of the puzzle not the ENTIRE story there are many stones out there that have their own unique sense of beauty and really good specs that may or not may perform well with an ASET.

HI Bill,

If you are using well known PS vendors like WF, ERD or GOG they may send a stone prior to payment to a recognized appraisor who they trust. Richard Sherwood would certainly qualify as one such appraisor as would David Atlas and many of the other appraisors listed here. You have to ask each particular vendor and if they will be willing to do this, in my case all three would have done this for me.

Crown Angles of greater than 40 degrees is actually quite important for your stone. I would be worried about the cut if it didn't say that on the certificate. A Crown angle of greater than 40 degrees usually indicates a tall crown which is important for the great dispersion these stones show (flashes of color) and also helps the size of the virtual facets under the table. This is a positive characteristic not a negative one.

The kozibe effect is a personal preference, it is only visible from some angles and much more noticeable in a magnified image than in real life. The large culet is added on purpose to these stones as it adds personality to them and retains the original appearance of the old cut stones in this style. I would not be worried about it, some like it, some don't but most are not going to be bothered by only a large one. If the culet was extra large than that might cause for some concern.

If you are using well known PS vendors like WF, ERD or GOG they may send a stone prior to payment to a recognized appraisor who they trust. Richard Sherwood would certainly qualify as one such appraisor as would David Atlas and many of the other appraisors listed here. You have to ask each particular vendor and if they will be willing to do this, in my case all three would have done this for me.

If you are buying a truly antique cushion (1830 - 1900s) stone (yours is not!) and you don't care about the light return than my advice is to view as many in person and buy the one that speaks to you most. I reccomend Adam at OldWorldDiamonds.com or Erica & Grace at Jewelsbyericagrace.com for real antique stones.

If however you are buying a recently cut stone cut in a vintage style and you are coming on Pricescope for a detailed opinion, I have to question why any vendor would not provide you with an image used to measure where a diamond is collecting its light from so that you can compare your diamond with its peers. Far too often even experienced pricescope consumers purchase diamonds online and it will be the first and last time they view a particular cut. If this is the first decently cut antique style 8 main cushion you have seen you will think it is beautiful but may never know how it compares to other well cut stones.

Photographs can be very dependant on the lighting, I would only use them to determine facet structure and the size of the virtual facets. For example in your stone I can't tell if the cross in the middle of your stone will only appear dark in a photograph(more likely) or will be dark at times in real life as well. I can guess at these things based on comparing many ASETs with photographs and real world experience but that will not be definitive or as accurate as an ASET.

The ASET is the great equalizer for the consumer, it doesn't care whose eyes are viewing it or if a sale is contingent upon its results most of the other information (except what is on the certificate) you will normally receive from a vendor is subjective not objective.

I've seen an appraisal completed by Rich Sherwood on a vintage style cushion and I would say it was very thorough much more so than the two appraisors I used for my cushion.

Good-Luck,
CCL

 

[Dreamer_D]

Date: 3/13/2010 2:21:55 AM
Author: BillBigs
I think there may be an over reliance on ASET images for P''scopers...it seems that many people on here are becoming paralyzed without one! I truly believe they have their value but also think that many of the people who want a high quality old cut stone (such as an OMB or CB that has been recut to modern standards) are overly fixated on the ASET. A n ASET image is a piece of the puzzle not the ENTIRE story there are many stones out there that have their own unique sense of beauty and really good specs that may or not may perform well with an ASET.

We ask for it because it is one of the only ways that we can help consumers to assess their diamonds remotely. If we were all sitting around a tea party we wouldn''t ask, we could just look at it

But we cannot, so we ask for imaging tech to help us help you.

 

[BillBigs]

Date: 3/13/2010 11:33:13 AM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 3/13/2010 2:21:55 AM
Author: BillBigs
I think there may be an over reliance on ASET images for P''scopers...it seems that many people on here are becoming paralyzed without one! I truly believe they have their value but also think that many of the people who want a high quality old cut stone (such as an OMB or CB that has been recut to modern standards) are overly fixated on the ASET. A n ASET image is a piece of the puzzle not the ENTIRE story there are many stones out there that have their own unique sense of beauty and really good specs that may or not may perform well with an ASET.

We ask for it because it is one of the only ways that we can help consumers to assess their diamonds remotely. If we were all sitting around a tea party we wouldn''t ask, we could just look at it

But we cannot, so we ask for imaging tech to help us help you.

Dreamer your post made me laugh! I agree with what both you and CCL wrote regarding the objective analysis an ASET images provides.

My comments were not really directed at those who provide the advice but more so to individuals who are paralyzed without the ASET images. There are many people who after doing a lot of research on here and in other venues have fallen in love with the look and "feel" of thier stone after personally investigating it with their own eyes. So even after an exhaustive search of calling in numerous stones, and narrowing the search to the "one" and getting it professionally appraised some people still can''t move forward because they are either unsatisfied with the ASET or cant easily obtain one.

I laugh at it because I''m becoming this type of person as well. I now feel like I know enough to be dangerous; only problem is I''m driving myself crazy. I now feel like the Math Professor (Lambeau) in the movie Good Will Hunting who had piece of mind and feelings of competence until he met WIll Hunting...remember the memorable line ....."Sometimes I wish I had never met you. Because then I could go to sleep at night not knowing there was someone like you out there" - THATS HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE ASET and other things I learned on Pscope; Ignorance is truly bliss


IMO thats whats happening to a lot of people on here; Some are so close to getting that piece of mind ....their eyes, their heart and in some cases their fiance even loves the stone until they get results of the ASET and as many of you mentioned the ASET just does it thing....it doesnt care and doesnt have any hidden agendas....

There''s lots of sarcasm in this post for those of you who are fans of it......thanks for reading

 

[Dreamer_D]

Bill Yup, ignorance is bliss. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. All those old cliches are cliches for a reason! I personally think that if you have done the due dilligence by looking around at many different options, seeking the opinions of a trusted vendor and a trusted appraiser, then you have enough information to go on without the additional tools. But it is a lot of money and people don''t want to regret the decision, ya know? But a point does come where you have to just take that leap. No stone is perfect, but you can find a stone that makes you happy!

But listen, I am not one to talk. I am always thinking of ways to improve my diamond.

But the cushion you are considering seems to have a lot of potential. I am eager to hear what your appraiser tells you.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Date: 3/13/2010 10:02:37 PM
Author: BillBigs

Date: 3/13/2010 11:33:13 AM
Author: dreamer_d

Date: 3/13/2010 2:21:55 AM
Author: BillBigs
I think there may be an over reliance on ASET images for P''scopers...it seems that many people on here are becoming paralyzed without one! I truly believe they have their value but also think that many of the people who want a high quality old cut stone (such as an OMB or CB that has been recut to modern standards) are overly fixated on the ASET. A n ASET image is a piece of the puzzle not the ENTIRE story there are many stones out there that have their own unique sense of beauty and really good specs that may or not may perform well with an ASET.

We ask for it because it is one of the only ways that we can help consumers to assess their diamonds remotely. If we were all sitting around a tea party we wouldn''t ask, we could just look at it

But we cannot, so we ask for imaging tech to help us help you.

Dreamer your post made me laugh! I agree with what both you and CCL wrote regarding the objective analysis an ASET images provides.

My comments were not really directed at those who provide the advice but more so to individuals who are paralyzed without the ASET images. There are many people who after doing a lot of research on here and in other venues have fallen in love with the look and ''feel'' of thier stone after personally investigating it with their own eyes. So even after an exhaustive search of calling in numerous stones, and narrowing the search to the ''one'' and getting it professionally appraised some people still can''t move forward because they are either unsatisfied with the ASET or cant easily obtain one.

I laugh at it because I''m becoming this type of person as well. I now feel like I know enough to be dangerous; only problem is I''m driving myself crazy. I now feel like the Math Professor (Lambeau) in the movie Good Will Hunting who had piece of mind and feelings of competence until he met WIll Hunting...remember the memorable line .....''Sometimes I wish I had never met you. Because then I could go to sleep at night not knowing there was someone like you out there'' - THATS HOW I FEEL ABOUT THE ASET and other things I learned on Pscope; Ignorance is truly bliss


IMO thats whats happening to a lot of people on here; Some are so close to getting that piece of mind ....their eyes, their heart and in some cases their fiance even loves the stone until they get results of the ASET and as many of you mentioned the ASET just does it thing....it doesnt care and doesnt have any hidden agendas....

There''s lots of sarcasm in this post for those of you who are fans of it......thanks for reading

Bill,

Will there be stones with better light performance in this style? For sure all GOG August Vintage Cushions were designed for light performances all will be superior under this criteria.
Will you pay more for an AVC than this one if all other things were the same (carat weight, color, clarity etc.)? Yes you will. Probably 10 - 20% more.
Is it important to you that some obsessed diamond nut in a forum of obsessed diamond nuts advises you that this stone is merely above average and not the best they have seen or ithat is available? Your choice.

This forum is about consumer education, I want novice consumers to realize that vendors that don''t provide ASET do so because they want to sell you what they have. They don''t want you to compare, they don''t want you to see flaws in what they are selling you. If they do point these things out than you will become more selective about cut and may seek out vendors with higher standards or make them work harder to make the sale.

I really did my homework on my wife''s purchase, posted on Pricescope, even compared two diamonds from two PS vendors at an appraisors office and even met Mark from ERD in person who hand delivered our finished ring in Vermont, a 5 hour drive each way from where he lives in New York. Despite all of this the ASET image I got AFTER the diamond was purchased shocked me. As the months have gone by I have realized I was misled slightly by jewelry store lights and the lights in the appraisor''s office, the true representation of the diamond''s light performance was the ASET, not the comments by Mark or the superb performance my wife saw from the diamond under bright lights and white walls in the appraisor''s office. If I could do everything over again I might have bought something different for my wife. Luckily for me my wife is blissfully unaware of what is out there and loves her diamond because it is so much better than the other 50 or so diamonds she saw that were from local vendors.

You are very lucky to have the information at your finger tips on pricescope, in the past you would not have had as many options nor was it made as clear as it is now the differences in light performance within the same type of cushion cut. I wish I was in your position when I made my choice I would have been much more informed

 

[CharmyPoo]

CCL - While I agree with everything you said, I sometimes wish I didn''t know any better I am sure my fiance feels the same way.