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Torture Alleged at Ministry Site Outside Baghdad

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AGBF

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American soldiers found that members of the Iraqi forces that we helped to put in control with our invasion were torturing prisoners underneath a building belonging to one of the ministries (the Ministry of the Interior). The new, Shiite dominated, government seems to resemble that of the Sunni dominated government of Saddam Hussein. Same torture chambers, new group of torturers. I guess this is Iraq's new democracy.


Here are a few excerpts.

"Iraq's government said Tuesday that it had ordered an urgent investigation of allegations that many of the 173 detainees American troops discovered over the weekend in the basement of an Interior Ministry building in a Baghdad suburb had been tortured by their Iraqi captors. A senior Iraqi official who visited the detainees said two appeared paralyzed and others had some of the skin peeled off their bodies by their abusers.

Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari held a hurriedly organized news conference to announce the official inquiry.

...

The discovery of what appeared to have been a secret torture center created a new aura of crisis for American officials and Iraqi politicians who hold power in the Shiite-led transitional government. For many Iraqis, the episode carried heavy overtones of the brutality associated with Saddam Hussein and his Sunni-dominated government.

...

At his news conference, Mr. Jaafari
...

said he had appointed a deputy prime minister, Rowsh Shaways, who is Kurdish, to head an inquiry, and ordered him to report within two weeks.

An Interior Ministry statement said flatly that torture had occurred and that 'instruments of torture,' which it did not describe, were found in the building.

...

In a CNN interview, he was more graphic. 'I saw signs of physical abuse by brutal beating, one or two detainees were paralyzed and some had skin peeling off various parts of their bodies,' he said.

...

Since the Jaafari government took office in May and gave the post of interior minister to Bayan Jabr, a former leader of the Badr militia, it has been dogged by allegations that Shiite religious militiamen have infiltrated the country's 110,000-member police force and acted as a spearhead of revenge against Sunnis, locking up thousands in secret detention centers, and forming police death squads that single out Sunnis.

...

Mr. Jaafari acted after meetings with the American ambassador to Iraq, Zalmay Khalilzad, and with the American military commander, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., according to accounts by American officials.

The disclosure of the direct American role in hastening Mr. Jaafari into action was a break from the usual pattern in the 17 months since Iraq regained formal sovereignty, a period in which American officials have been assiduous in exerting their influence behind the scenes."


article


Deb
 
Your going to get rotten apples in any bunch.
Throw in revenge when the tortured takes over from the torturers it isnt to be unexpected.

Given the culture it isn''t surprising, torture goes in an Saudi Arabia all the time as well as Jordon.
Should have just nuked it into a glass parting lot.
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:14:36 AM
Author: strmrdr
Your going to get rotten apples in any bunch.

If we will have torture in Iraq no matter what régime is in power, why invade it to bring the people, "democracy", killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process? People who defend the invasion of Iraq always speak of Saddam Hussein''s torture chambers as justification for what we did!

Deb
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:14:36 AM
Author: strmrdr
Given the culture it isn't surprising, torture goes in an Saudi Arabia all the time as well as Jordon.

Should have just nuked it into a glass parting lot.

Uh...and, "it" is? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Iraq? The entire Middle east? All of the Moslem world? Everyone but the US? Just curious.

PS-I thought we were there to help them!
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:27:24 AM
Author: AGBF



Date: 11/16/2005 8:14:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

Given the culture it isn''t surprising, torture goes in an Saudi Arabia all the time as well as Jordon.


Should have just nuked it into a glass parting lot.


Uh...and, ''it'' is? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Iraq? The entire Middle east? All of the Moslem world? Everyone but the US? Just curious.


PS-I thought we were there to help them!

hmmmmmmm interesting question.
Eventually it will all be destroyed it is so written.
One of these days there are going to tackle Israel and they will get turned into a parking lot.
By rolling up a couple countries we are putting that day off so yea we are helping them.
In the mean time they are burning France and I think it is way funny :}

Dont think the rest arent watching how quickly we rolled up 2 countries using about 1/30th the resources and the same tech that Israel could throw into a fight.

In the middle east everything is connected and a lot of it is for show.
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:24:38 AM
Author: AGBF



Date: 11/16/2005 8:14:36 AM

Author: strmrdr

Your going to get rotten apples in any bunch.


If we will have torture in Iraq no matter what régime is in power, why invade it to bring the people, ''democracy'', killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in the process? People who defend the invasion of Iraq always speak of Saddam Hussein''s torture chambers as justification for what we did!


Deb

We should have done it right the first time.
When you dig down to the core we went in because we left the job undone the first time.

The reason we left it undone?
Because what is happening today would have happened then and Bush1 didnt have the guts for it.

There was not 2 gulf wars it was one and an intermission then it was resumed.
That is the way history will look at it.
 
Date: 11/16/2005 9:36:51 AM
Author: strmrdr

We should have done it right the first time.

When you dig down to the core we went in because we left the job undone the first time.


The reason we left it undone?

Because what is happening today would have happened then and Bush1 didnt have the guts for it.


There was not 2 gulf wars it was one and an intermission then it was resumed.

That is the way history will look at it.

Often your reasoning is impeccable, even if your values are...different from mine. In this case I question your reasoning.

I agree that history may very well regard the Gulf Wars as part of one war (kind of like the Thirty Years War that was in four parts!).

I have a big problem with your saying we should have done this (I assume by that you mean removing Saddam Hussein from power) during the first Gulf War. Your position has always been that we do not interfere in the wars of other nations although, if we are attacked, we knock that nation off the globe.

It seems to me that we should never even have been in Kuwait according to your (isolationist) reasoning. If we were, why should we enter Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein? That would be against all the ideals you traditionally espouse. It would be a huge sacrifice of your tax dollars and American lives to meddle in the internal affairs of a country that did not attack the United States.


Deb
 
The first part of the gulf war was to rescue a friendly country I support/supported it.
They messed with our friends and they get messed with back in spades.
The second part im less supportive of but in a lot of ways after letting the people in Iraq down we owed it too them.

A while back on TV they showed a wharehouse full of dead bodies.
Why were they killed?
because when bush1 asked them to rebel they did.
Then we didnt protect them and withdrew.
That is the shame of the first part of the war and why
we should have finished it.

Why no outrage when it happened they were only Kurds the most hated and oppressed group in the middle east.
Look into there history some time if you want to read a sad story.
I also suspect that there help in Afghanistan had a lot to do with us going into Iraq the second time.

Those torture places mentioned above, If you want to know who are the most common victoms it would be the Kurds.
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:24:38 AM
Author: AGBF




Date: 11/16/2005 8:14:36 AM
Author: strmrdr
Your going to get rotten apples in any bunch.

If we will have torture in Iraq no matter what régime is in power, why invade it to bring the people, 'democracy',

Good question... perhaps there is some hope now for such practice to be gradually outcast. Maybe not. I had a chance to talk with experts who have worked in Irak, but this never came up - as if indeed there is no change to talk about.

IMO, blaming it on 'local culture' seems like an easy way out. From local experience, political torture works as costless broadcasting of arbitrary political power. No democratic election campaign ever delivered nearly as strong a message as the quiet presence of political prisons.
7.gif
Of this kind, even one 'rotten apple' may just be enough to start an epidemic, God forbid.

There's never a shortage of 'field workers' for it and that is truly embarrassing for hairless primates in general. On the outside, 'they' look pretty normal.

Oh well...
 
Date: 11/16/2005 4:05:36 PM
Author: strmrdr
The first part of the gulf war was to rescue a friendly country I support/supported it.

That has never been your stated position here! You have always said that only if the US were attacked would you support war. If you are now saying the United States should support its friends militarily, you add many wars to the list of those you would support. The chasm between supporting "war if attacked" and "war when one''s friends are atacked" is enormous.

Deb
 
Its more complicated than that :}
Yes we should withdraw from pretty much all of the 296 places we are at.
Yes if attacked we should blast em to dust then burn the dust.

If 2 countries want to duke it out then its none of our business but if a friendly country is unjustly attacked by a bully then we should help out.

Like a school yard, protect the weak from the bullies but let the rest fight if they want too.

Some countries friendly or not just deserve it too so its a case by case basis.
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:29:36 PM
Author: strmrdr
If 2 countries want to duke it out then its none of our business but if a friendly country is unjustly attacked by a bully then we should help out.

OK...so in which of the wars in which the United States has participated since its inception did we go to war for a reason other than to defend our interests because one of our "friends" was under atack? I doubt there are many you can find.

Deb
 
almost all the police actions Clinton got us involved in.
Somalia for one.
yugoslavia for 2

many many more....

All none of our business.
 
Date: 11/17/2005 7:36:20 AM
Author: strmrdr
almost all the police actions Clinton got us involved in.

Somalia for one.

yugoslavia for 2


many many more....


All none of our business.


Well, I may not agree with you on what is and what isn't "our business". If all men are my brothers, the killing of any man, the genocide against any group, should affect me personally. But even buying YOUR definition of a "friend", most of our wars would still have been fought had your criteria been the deciding criteria for whether or not to go to war!

Deb
 
Date: 11/17/2005 10:12:40 AM
Author: AGBF



Date: 11/17/2005 7:36:20 AM

Author: strmrdr

almost all the police actions Clinton got us involved in.


Somalia for one.


yugoslavia for 2



many many more....



All none of our business.



Well, I may not agree with you on what is and what isn''t ''our business''. If all men are my brothers, the killing of any man, the genocide against any group, should affect me personally. But even buying YOUR definition of a ''friend'', most of our wars would still have been fought had your criteria been the deciding criteria for whether or not to go to war!


Deb

yea a lot of em would have... so?
Iv said we should have got involved in ww1 and ww2 sooner in the past.
Korea and Vietnam in my mind are questionable if we actualy had the will to try and win either one then my feelings might be different.
stupid politions should not be allowed to run a war......
 

Update on Torture in "Democratic" Iraq​




This is the continuing saga about the torture by the current Iraqi régime. And although Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds, it is not the Kurds who are the victims who were discovered on Sunday.

"American soldiers with the Third Infantry Division discovered the prisoners on Sunday night when they raided the two-level building, a former bomb shelter and major operations center for the Interior Ministry. The soldiers returned on Monday evening to transfer the prisoners to another detention center.

A journalist for Voice of America who witnessed that transfer said in an interview today that at least one-third of the prisoners, all young men, had bruises or lacerations on their faces or bodies, and that they appeared to be 'extremely emaciated, starved for some time.'

The soldiers counted 166 Sunni Arabs and three Shiite Arabs after asking each prisoner to identify his sect, the reporter, Alisha Ryu, said. The soldiers also found instruments of torture hidden behind ceiling panels in rooms on the first floor. One such device was a metal rod with a ball on the end, similar to a medieval mace.

The discovery of the prisoners has prompted a furious outcry from Sunni Arab leaders, who have long accused the Shiite-led government of abducting and torturing or killing Sunnis."

article
 
Date: 11/16/2005 8:29:36 PM
Author: strmrdr
Its more complicated than that :}
Yes we should withdraw from pretty much all of the 296 places we are at.
Yes if attacked we should blast em to dust then burn the dust.

If 2 countries want to duke it out then its none of our business but if a friendly country is unjustly attacked by a bully then we should help out.

Like a school yard, protect the weak from the bullies but let the rest fight if they want too.

Some countries friendly or not just deserve it too so its a case by case basis.

i might add that re the kurds: we the US did nothing at the time because saddam was our ''friend''. in fact, this ''friend'' checked with us to see what our reaction would be should he decide to invade kuwait and was told it wasn''t a problem in our ''relationship''. however, after our ''friend'' invaded kuwait we changed our mind, decided to change our ''relationship'' with this ''friend'', and proceded to initiate desert storm.
interesting how the use of ''friend'' changes everything for everyone. and its even more interesting how we change our ''friends''. so which ''friend'' are we going to back next and which ''friend'' are we going to betray?

then we have the problem of defining an ''unjust'' attack, what is a ''bully''...........

but back to torture: it would seem rather hypocritical to get upset about torture in iraq done by iraqis to iraqis when our own administration wants to make it legal for us to do it to them also.

peace, movie zombie
 
"The Independent" says this of the latest admission by the Bush administration about the US using white phosphorous as a weapon and the news about the new US-backed Iraqi government's torture chambers.

"President Bush is betraying the founding values of his nation

The bitter taste is left of an administration whose response is to deny first and concede later - only when found out


Outlawed weapons and lies about them. Hidden prisons and torture chambers. Human beings in cages. Captives who 'disappear'. This was Saddam Hussein's Iraq, was it not, and the justification for war? Two and a half years after the invasion, to the eternal shame of the occupiers, it is increasingly the new Iraq as well."

article
 
and another article with a little more graphic detail: http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20051118/our_monsters_in_iraq.php

its no longer merely alleged. its acknowledged!

peace, movie zombie

ps and how about that chalibi?! meeting with powers that be last week and the FBI still hasn''t been able to meet with him in their ongoing investigation!
 
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