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Tourmaline Vs. Ruby florescence question

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LightBright

Ideal_Rock
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Mar 11, 2013
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Crosspost from Hangout talking about a recent $100 Etsy purchase. The vendor called it a pink tourmaline and said No Returns. See photos.

Would I be able to prove it’s not a tourmaline by flourescence alone? See photo. I guess I have no formal proof and that’s what Etsy would need?

Am I crazy for thinking this is not a tourmaline?

21315BE8-E43A-46DC-9CF2-F83713CFA3FC.jpeg
 
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This is the stone in natural indirect light in front of window. I believe it is a glass filled ruby, but no way to know.
D0A24E22-3BEB-472D-965A-15FBB696EB2B.jpeg
 
Personally, and other PSers can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only familiar with fluorescence in chrome (green) tourmaline. I don't think pinks fluoresce. But I'm not sure that's enough to sway Etsy. I would find a local G.G. (the GIA website has an alumni list by state... if you're in the US) and have them evaluate it. If they find it's synthetic or a simulant, have them write you up a report (they will likely charge you a nominal fee). That may be enough to get Etsy to act. The next step would be a lab report, which will cost you as much as, or more than, the stone. And I'm not sure Etsy could enforce that the seller compensate you for the report. They can make them refund you for the stone's purchase price/shipping, but that might be it. Good luck!
 
icy_jade said:
Tourmaline doesn’t do that right? What does it usually look like?
Click to expand...

My assumption from technical stuff I’ve seen online is that tourmaline never fluoresces hot pink unless it’s got chromium in it which would mean in natural light it would be a green stone.
 
So, THANK YOU for indulging my curiosity about this. It’s a sterling ring, actually pretty but color of stone not what I thought. I‘m guessing it’s glass filled ruby.

The ring was not expensive so I think I’ll call this a lesson learned, to always look at return policies!
 
Any reasonable jeweler would have a gem tester that could quickly check if it reads as tourmaline or ruby. If the seller has misrepresented an item, you should be entitled to a refund regardless of the return policy. If you would want a refund, start your paper trail now and let the vendor know that you suspect the stone is not a tourmaline, and see how they respond.
 
UPDATE: Etsy ruled in favor of the seller, who stated that the buyer should have asked questions before I bought a “No Returns” ring. Not sure how I would have known that this was a ruby, not a tourmaline before seeing the ring in person…

Seller was extremely condescending throughout the whole process. (Mea culpa, I literally didn’t notice that she was a No Returns store.) I’m surprised that Etsy lets sellers misrepresent gems… but it should be obvious to me that they do.

Another fun fact. Etsy doesn’t let you review a purchase if you lose a dispute. (Not able to review the purchase at least at this point.)

Etsy closed the case after I provided proof of fluorescence and a photo of a pristine glass like ruby (it was sold as a “Vint-age Pin-k Tourmaline” ring. They also closed the case when I told them I’d be happy to get the gem Presidium tested and would they want that as secondary proof this isn’t a tourmaline. Kind of a joke.
 
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That's horrible... this is why I think a report from a local G.G. would have been beneficial prior to opening the dispute. You want to have all of your "ducks in a row" right out of the gate, to show the maximum amount of evidence up front. Etsy is not comprised of gemstone and jeweler professionals. They really don't know what they're looking at, you know? They need to be convinced at the outset, because, once they rule, it's nearly impossible to have it overturned.

It is 100% unlawful to misrepresent gemstones, regardless of return policies. I understand this was not a high-value expenditure, but I'd still want to bust their balls. Are they a US seller? If so, contact the FTC at 1-877-382-4357 to file a complaint. You can also contact the JVC (Jewelers Vigilance Committee), which is an independent, non-profit organization formed to advance ethical practices in the jewelry industry. 212-997-2002 I'd also continue to hound Etsy, and you should put the seller on blast here and in online reviews, if possible. So sorry this happened to you... good luck!
 
This is listed on an Etsy jeweler vendors site (obviously not the Etsy vendor in question)

“WE DO ACCEPT RETURNS! Etsy changed their platform and forced sellers into an all-or-nothing return/no-return tab, without allowing us to enter our whole policy. As a result of this corporate change, I have had to turn off the return tab on the page. Returns ARE ACCEPTED within 7 days w/ 10% restock fee for unaltered items. Read FAQ for more details.”

It sounds like something has changed at Etsy at some point that sounds really opaque to the viewpoint of the buyer?

Taking away the need for laboratory proof of it being a ruby vs what the seller considers as a tourmaline - let’s say it was just the color/look of the stone in vendors pictures that was the issue.

If it was as simple as if @LightBright would have first asked a question to the vendor regarding the look of the stone out of sunlight/bright light or more pictures - would Etsy have handled it differently?
Or am I misunderstanding that since it was a no returns sale and no questions were asked - that’s the main guideline right there?
 
Rfisher said:
This is listed on an Etsy jeweler vendors site (obviously not the Etsy vendor in question)

“WE DO ACCEPT RETURNS! Etsy changed their platform and forced sellers into an all-or-nothing return/no-return tab, without allowing us to enter our whole policy. As a result of this corporate change, I have had to turn off the return tab on the page. Returns ARE ACCEPTED within 7 days w/ 10% restock fee for unaltered items. Read FAQ for more details.”

It sounds like something has changed at Etsy at some point that sounds really opaque to the viewpoint of the buyer?

Taking away the need for laboratory proof of it being a ruby vs what the seller considers as a tourmaline - let’s say it was just the color/look of the stone in vendors pictures that was the issue.

If it was as simple as if @LightBright would have first asked a question to the vendor regarding the look of the stone out of sunlight/bright light or more pictures - would Etsy have handled it differently?
Or am I misunderstanding that since it was a no returns sale and no questions were asked - that’s the main guideline right there?
Click to expand...

Yeah, so ebay did the same thing. We used to have the option for a 7-day return period, which I thought was reasonable for private sellers. Now it's up to 30-days (14-days for certain items). I just can't run the risk of a buyer wearing a valuable ring for 30 days before deciding to return it. So I choose "no returns" and then mention a 7-day policy in the listing. It's definitely not ideal.

I think, in this case, since there was no return policy, OP would never have been able to return the piece simply due to not liking it. If something is misrepresented outright or damaged, however, Etsy should force the return/refund. But they need clear and convincing proof of the issue. I just don't think that was present in this case, unfortunately. A local G.G.'s report would have gone a long way, IMO.
 
Whilst I would not have thought this was a tourmaline either, FYI, tourmalines can have red flourescence.

Also, in this case, I don't think the value of the item would be much different. But a ruby would be more hard wearing I guess.

Sorry to hear of your experience though.
 
I’m coming back to report that I opened up a dispute with my credit card company against Etsy. The credit card agent spoke to me personally and I explained that the Etsy dispute case had been abruptly closed without me being able to prove what I had, versus what the seller claimed. That’s all I said to the agent. Two weeks later, the credit card company contacted me to say that the dispute had been resolved in my favor and they refunded my money.

Background: I can’t stress enough how both the seller and the Etsy agent tag teamed in a big insulting mess against me as an innocent buyer. The Etsy agent stated to both seller and me:
“we fully appreciate the information PROVIDED BY THE SELLER to resolve this matter. The Vintage pink tourmaline cabochon sterling silver ring matches with listing description, we are not able to mediate this dispute using the case system. For this reason, we must close this case.” Etsy also deleted several of my proof and offer to prove posts and a couple snarky remarks posts from the seller, from the record of our dispute.

I won’t reveal the seller as I actually feel sorry for them and I don’t like to publicly shame people. I think the seller might have thought it was me that was trying to rip her off! I can’t imagine being so desperate that I’d condescend to a buyer, and I actually believe the seller knew what they had but was suspicious of my intentions.

All I do want to say is thank you for the informative discussion about Etsy and their return policies! Thanks for sharing information and words of wisdom about why or why not I might have a case. The drama of getting a colored stone supposedly vintage piece that was misrepresented has now made me SUPER skittish about using Etsy.

I hope my experience can help others avoid these messes. Please don’t buy things from sellers who explicitly state No Returns. It was something I never considered and frankly didn’t realize an Etsy seller would misrepresent a No Returns item, then Etsy would side with them! On a positive note, in the past I’ve gotten some beloved colored stone pieces on Etsy from some very nice sellers... thanks everyone!
 
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