Unexpected H&A possible?

[RT82]

Hi, I'm a first time poster, and only discovered this forum a few weeks ago (THANK YOU BTW for all the great info!).

I have a question. I recently put a deposit on a stone from a store a few weeks ago. They didn't have the actual stone in at the time, so I picked it together with the jeweler based on specs. I finally saw yesterday, and is now being set. She previously was all talk like "we only deal with PREMIUM stones, and only with GIA XXX etc.", which I always never trusted and took with a grain of salt. Anyhow when the stone came in and she pulled out a H&A scope, and showed me this amazing clear H&A pattern. The stone sparkled like crazy even before the H&A was used. I was plesantly surprised b/c we hadn't even discussed H&A at all. She said she never claims they are H&A until she sees the stone also and she says other vendors branding stones as H&A is totally B.S. Is that true?

Its a GIA, triple excellent as follows:

Measurements 6.22 - 6.25 x 3.87 mm
Carat Weight 0.92 carat
Color Grade G
Clarity Grade SI2
Cut Grade Excellent

Depth 62.0%
Table 56%
Crown Angle 35.5°
Crown Height 15.5%
Pavilion Angle 40.8°
Pavilion Depth 43.0%
Star Length 55%
Lower Half 80%
Girdle Medium, Faceted, 3.5%
Culet None

Is this true and is it possible I got a H&A by luck? It wasn't cheap by any means. Obviously I'm not an expert but the pattern looked pretty texbook compared the H&A pictures floating around here and elsewhere. Particularly the hearts on the bottom. Maybe I'm trying to justify how much I'm paying, but the stone did really look WAY better than the other (less expensive) stones I was looking at.

Secondary question: I'm in Toronto, have looked at lots of stones here and never came across one AGS cert'd stone. Is AGS rare up here in Canada?

 

[Just_Starting]

A lot of vendors abuse the term H&A - the stone you have seen probably resembles the pattern (I'm sure it does since you've seen it...) whether or not it qualifies as true hearts and arrows is another matter. Either way, if you're not paying extra for it to be true h&a I wouldn't worry too much about it. The stone is a 2.6 on the HCA tool https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca I wouldn't go for one with a score above 2, but if the price is good and you like the stone then that's up to you just so long as you're aware! I know nothing of AGS in Canada sorry but I do know AGS is currently mostly (if not entirely) in America. The crown angle being 35.5 is the reason the stone didn't score an HCA excellent. I'm far from an expert on h&a still very much learning about them myself - however I hope this information is of some use in the mean time before a more experienced member can provide input.

 

[RT82]

Thanks Just_Starting. I get that an H&A expert would be better to judge if the pattern is legit or not. I'm convinced so I suppose that's good enough. I guess I was wondering, if it would be considered an expert approved H&A, wouldn't someone (the cutter? I dunno) want it H&A enscripted or noted on some cert or something? Or simply b/c GIA doesn't do that, is it possiblw there are GIA XXX that have H&A patterns in the market.

Ya I calc'd that HCA too before I got to see it in person... I completely forgot about it when looking at it in person b/c it justed looked so nice. This is probably another thread completely but... now I'm surpised that ppl blow off stones based on an HCA >2, when all the other advice (e.g. on cut, colour, dimensions etc.) says don't rely on specs but go see the stone. Maybe its useful online when you have to wade through dozens of reports. HCA is just fitting the dimensions to someone's ideal. I'm not anti-HCA to be clear. In honesty I probably wouldn't have cared about the HCA unless it was some crazy high number to put doubts in my head.

 

[RT82]

One more thing. I don't think I'm paying extra for H&A branding b/c it isn't branded and the jeweler wasn't selling that feature per se. Her words, which appear to be non-standard language, were "we only carry PREMIUM stones" whatever that means, lol. It was more of a happy surprise to me after I more or less bought the stone already (not final sale of course).

BUT. It was on the higher end of prices for stones with similar specs. I was looking at a bunch of >1ct at a similar price with similar specs. They didn't look any bigger even side by side, but the 1cts didn't appear as pleasing to the eye. Maybe I'm just trying to convice myself I didn't overpay (or should have gone with 1 ct for the same price). Anyhow I'm happy and super pumped about the ring (can you tell? haha).

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, to answer your question, my newbie reply would be probably no. From my reading, you can have arrows and hearts with the viewer and still not have a true H&A cut diamond, meaning optimized proportions and optical symmetry. I still have a hard time looking at the arrows and especially hearts to see the slightest of non-symmetry, I think it takes years of practice. Besides, I think the 80% lgf puts it out of the running for true H&A. Makes for thinner arrows for sure, not sure what that affect is for hearts. But all that aside, you may have a fabulous, lively stone for a fair price. So, if you like it, do enjoy!

 

[RT82]

I wonder what percentage of stones being marketed as H&A (verbally or with cert/laser) would be considered legit H&A by an experienced person...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

No one should ever pay for the label H&A without images that prove that it is. Many GIA Ex cut stones will display hearts and arrows but they are not perfect enough to be branded as H&A. I trust vendors like Good Old Gold, WhiteFlash, and Infinity because they have high standards for stones they label as H&A. You likely have a stone that is well cut so dsiplays the hearts and arrows pattern, but it also is not likely a perfect example or it would have been sold at a premium and marketed as H&A. Just be glad that it appears you got a well cut stone!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Thanks Just_Starting. I get that an H&A expert would be better to judge if the pattern is legit or not. I'm convinced so I suppose that's good enough. I guess I was wondering, if it would be considered an expert approved H&A, wouldn't someone (the cutter? I dunno) want it H&A enscripted or noted on some cert or something? Or simply b/c GIA doesn't do that, is it possiblw there are GIA XXX that have H&A patterns in the market.

You can ask GIA to inscribe anything on the girdle whether it is a H&A stone or not. w/o hearts pic we are just guessing.

 

[Dancing Fire]

I wonder what percentage of stones being marketed as H&A (verbally or with cert/laser) would be considered legit H&A by an experienced person...

True H&A, not verbally?...I'd guess like 3%.

 

[RT82]

Interesting. So if it were a true H&A, more likely than not someone would have jumped on the chance to enscribe it as such?

The jeweler said they never do that, but then again they had to 'order it in' suggesting they are just picking out of a pool of stones that are potentially availabe to other ppl (not that that matters to me)

 

[Dancing Fire]

Interesting. So if it were a true H&A, more likely than not someone would have jumped on the chance to enscribe it as such?

The jeweler said they never do that, but then again they had to 'order it in' suggesting they are just picking out of a pool of stones that are potentially availabe to other ppl (not that that matters to me)

Not really, in fact 99% of the stones aren't inscribed as H&A.

 

[Roqsteady]

Gypsy normally has a blurb written on the difference between light return (ideal cut proportions) and optical symmetry (facet alignment) and why one does not imply the other, nor do you have to have both to have a great looking diamond - the priority really should be good, balanced and symmetric light return with minimal leakage that comes from ideal cut proportions - and by your eyes hopefully you've found one that performs satisfactorily to you. The 35.5 degree crown angle will probably produce more firey (colored light) light return than brilliance (white light), but that comes down to personal preference and the good thing is you've seen it for yourself and liked what you saw.

H&A simply (though not simply accomplished by any means) all the diamonds facets are aligned perfectly 180 degrees from each other - which is why it's referred to as perfect optical symmetry. In reality, most diamonds are not perfect, even ones from superideal vendors. Even within BG/WF/CBI/GoG you can see some branded H&A's that have crisper patterns than others within the same vendor. This is because, like diamond color, it's really a gradient. All H&A is a label given to describe the visual phenomenon you see, and people are comfortable with calling a diamond "Hearts & Arrows" once it reaches a certain threshold of crispness/perfection. This threshold is subjective, however, and thus here on PS we tend to trust the reputable vendors as they are consistent with their cut quality.

Here's an example of a pretty good H&A pattern:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/items/12156/hearts.jpg

While it's not an absolutely perfect image (there's some twisting of the tips slightly, and very slight clefts in some of the hearts), if the H&A you saw looked like this I think most people would consider an H&A diamond. I'd also add in my personal opinion that H&A patterns themselves come in slightly different patterns depending on the length of the lower girdle facets (LGFs). Generally the "picture perfect" pattern tends to arise from LGFs around 77-78%. The problem with GIA is that it rounds LGFs to the nearest 5%, so an 80% LGF could be a 78 or an 82). Longer LGFs produce hearts with more clefts or "cleavage", and the longer the LGFs, the more the hearts will resemble "bunny ears." How this affects light return is that the main pavillion facets (the arrows) become skinnier and throw thinner, more splintery flashes of light. Conversely, the shorter the LGF the closer the "V's" of the hearts get to the hearts, and the arrows become chubbier, throwing broader flashes of light. The type of flashes of light that one prefers can vary from person to person, so a "perfect H&A" pattern may be different for different people.

Don't get caught up with calling things H&A vs non-H&A, because that term is so subjective and doesn't mean anything unless you have the same standards. Instead, compare the images to H&A images that are crisp and perfect so you know how much your diamond deviates.

 

[RT82]

Thanks Roq, thats a great explaination. I hadn't heard about that LHG rounding to the nearest 5% before...

The hearts pattern I saw looked very very close (shame I don't have a pic...) to the one you showed, to my novice eyes. The only thing I can't remember is if the heart cleavage was present or not (I didn't know that was important until I read more about it after). Also, b/c the jeweler had a bit of trouble balancing the stone face up (she wasn't really trying all that hard), I didn't get best angle to view the arrows side. But moving the H&A finder around a bit, I could see all the arrows clearly. I'm basing my impression on the hearts view primarily b/c it was clearer, and rested flat. Is either more important/valuable to see? Hearts or arrows?

I don't really care if its H&A or not. Heck its purchased now. Also, the future-Mrs. knows zilch about diamonds so I won't bother mentioning it! Am just curious for myself.

 

[Karl_K]

With improvements in cutting tools and process many RBs will display hearts and arrows of some sort these days.
It is not as uncommon as it once was but near perfect h&a(nothing is ever perfect even from the best cutters) is more rare than h&a of some sort.

Bravo to the vendor for not claiming h&a without seeing it under an h&a scope.

 

[Karl_K]

Also, b/c the jeweler had a bit of trouble balancing the stone face up (she wasn't really trying all that hard), I didn't get best angle to view the arrows side. But moving the H&A finder around a bit, I could see all the arrows clearly. I'm basing my impression on the hearts view primarily b/c it was clearer, and rested flat. Is either more important/valuable to see? Hearts or arrows?

The arrow view is what is visible once its set but the heart image tells you more about optical symmetry.

 

[TC1987]

... now I'm surpised that ppl blow off stones based on an HCA >2, when all the other advice (e.g. on cut, colour, dimensions etc.) says don't rely on specs but go see the stone. Maybe its useful online when you have to wade through dozens of reports. HCA is just fitting the dimensions to someone's ideal. ...

In the USA, the best-cut diamonds get sent to AGS for grading because their AGS 0 cut grade is more specific and less broad than GIA excellent. Thus it's not necessary to run the HCA for stones graded AGS 0. The HCA is a rough guide to screen out obvious poor performers, and it at one time had a slight bias toward shallower and spreadier stones. If you want the "best of the best," sight unseen, then probably go by the AGS 0 or the HCA 2 or under. There are other discussions on here that say that HCA from 2-3 might be okay, or that slight leakage under the table is okay, or that some wonky symmetry is okay, but then you start getting into the "has to be seen" territory. And that's what most online and long-distance buyers want to avoid.

Color and clarity are so much a personal preference that if you are thinking about a compromise there, then you have to certainly look at actual colors in person at some point, or you or the vendor must inspect clarity in person to see if it's "eyeclean enough" for you. Wink of Highperformancediamonds has said that whenever he sets up a premium diamond against a Crafted by Infinity, the buyers will pick the CbI because they can see that superb cut and light performance. But, like anything else, people's tastes and priorities vary, and maybe a premium-cut diamond looks perfectly fine whenever it's not sitting side-by-side with a "superideal." I'm a believer that there is such a thing as "good enough" and you quit at that point instead of spend more money on things that are not important to you. In my case, 100% eyeclean is not important so I have SI2 and I1 diamonds but they are still stunning and you have to hunt to find the incusion(s).

 

[RT82]

Thus it's not necessary to run the HCA for stones graded AGS 0.

So I guess you only need HCA for GIA-XXX since the criteria is broader than AGS-000. Makes sense.