unheated ruby 10+ carats...need to know estimate rate

[ruchiramani]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and would like to know how much i would get for an unheated and untreated natural ruby which is a little over 10 carats. I've been told its a burmese ruby but i'm not sure about its origins. It was given to me by my grandmother and its atleast 75 years old, maybe even older than that.

Its a marquise cut and slighly pink and has an excellent clarity.

I'm unable to find someone here in india to test it properly so i wont be able to tell you the exact specifications.
I showed it to a jewelry here and he was only able to test that it is a real ruby which is unheated. He also told me that i should get it tested and certified from a reliable source and that it was a very rare ruby.

Please help me figure out an approximate value of this ruby.

Thank you!!!

 

[chrono]

You should definitely get it checked out to find out:
1. Nature made or synthetic?
2. Treatment - untreated, heat only, how much flux healing, lead glass filling, diffusion?
3. Exact colour breakdown - how much pink / orange, saturation level and tone.

I would not accept a jewellery store person's testing that it is untreated because I am doubtful that he/she has the necessary skill and equipment to know that for sure. In actuality, I would also want to make sure it is a nature-made ruby and not a synthetic, which has been around for many years and will test exactly the same as a nature-made ruby unless you have the right tools and skill to tell them apart. The fact that it is 10 carats with excellent clarity and colouration means either you have a heck of a ruby or most likely to have a synthetic ruby.

 

[ruchiramani]

thanks for the quick reply.
If it is indeed a natural ruby, than can you give me an approx rate per carat so that i would get as i plan to sell it soon. i have no idea about rubies or any other stone for that matter.

 

[chrono]

Treatment matters so much that it could be worth a few hundred to a few hundreds of thousands, therefore it is imperative to know it the stone is real, natural and the treatment (the level of treatment and type). The colour also matters and could set the price anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand dollars so you will not get anyone here to give you any sort of estimate without knowing anything about the ruby's colour, treatment or whether it is real, natural or a synthetic. No buyer is going to show interest either until you can prove it as well.

 

[T L]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and would like to know how much i would get for an unheated and untreated natural ruby which is a little over 10 carats. I've been told its a burmese ruby but i'm not sure about its origins. It was given to me by my grandmother and its atleast 75 years old, maybe even older than that.

Its a marquise cut and slighly pink and has an excellent clarity.

I'm unable to find someone here in india to test it properly so i wont be able to tell you the exact specifications.
I showed it to a jewelry here and he was only able to test that it is a real ruby which is unheated. He also told me that i should get it tested and certified from a reliable source and that it was a very rare ruby.

Please help me figure out an approximate value of this ruby.

Thank you!!!

A natural untreated ruby of Burmese origins, with excellent clarity and pinkish red sounds highly suspect as a synthetic. The reason I say that is because rubies rarely ever get larger than 5 carats, let alone 10. Even Elizabeth Taylor, who could afford the best of the best, had smaller single rubies, her largest was around 8 carats. Rubies are rarely clean as well, and the larger the carat weight, usually they're more included. A ten carat clean ruby is really suspect. They were making synthetic rubies 75 years ago, so it's possible it could be synthetic.

If it were real, it could be worth millions, so I am highly suspect about it.

I would send it to a highly reputable gem lab for rubies, and get it tested for origin, clarity, enhancement, color.

AGL, GRS, SSEF, GIA, are some labs that come to mind.

 

[partgypsy]

What the original jeweler told you was correct. You need to have it graded and tested for treatments (i.e. send to AGL) to determine if it is natural, and if so what treatments if any. Why not just do that? It is definitely worth your time to do so, there is no way for us to tell you anything more than that. But of course we would love if you would post additional details after doing so! And we always like looking at pictures.

 

[ruchiramani]

Hello,

I'm new to this forum and would like to know how much i would get for an unheated and untreated natural ruby which is a little over 10 carats. I've been told its a burmese ruby but i'm not sure about its origins. It was given to me by my grandmother and its atleast 75 years old, maybe even older than that.

Its a marquise cut and slighly pink and has an excellent clarity.

I'm unable to find someone here in india to test it properly so i wont be able to tell you the exact specifications.
I showed it to a jewelry here and he was only able to test that it is a real ruby which is unheated. He also told me that i should get it tested and certified from a reliable source and that it was a very rare ruby.

Please help me figure out an approximate value of this ruby.

Thank you!!!

A natural untreated ruby of Burmese origins, with excellent clarity and pinkish red sounds highly suspect as a synthetic. The reason I say that is because rubies rarely ever get larger than 5 carats, let alone 10. Even Elizabeth Taylor, who could afford the best of the best, had smaller single rubies, her largest was around 8 carats. Rubies are rarely clean as well, and the larger the carat weight, usually they're more included. A ten carat clean ruby is really suspect. They were making synthetic rubies 75 years ago, so it's possible it could be synthetic.

If it were real, it could be worth millions, so I am highly suspect about it.

I would send it to a highly reputable gem lab for rubies, and get it tested for origin, clarity, enhancement, color.

AGL, GRS, SSEF, GIA, are some labs that come to mind.

Hey,

I'm trying to find a reliable place here in india for testing. In the mean time i have attached the picture of the ring.
I'm sure that it is a natural ruby as my grandmother remembers it being very expensive in those times as well.
I have one certificate which i got a while back. ill t attach its picture as well.
Please give me your option as one of the testing here costs a lot.

The measurements roughly as 35mm*10mm*. As you can see it is studded so its a bit difficult to measure accurately.

 

[GoldfishPie]

I'm not sure I would trust the stats from Indian Super Mall...

 

[chrono]

I would definitely get an updated lab report for your ruby. It doesn't list anything useful at all.

1. Synthetic ruby has the same RI as a natural ruby and have been around since the 1800s, thus it is easy to assume a synthetic stone is a natural stone if RI testing is all that was conducted.
2. At one point in time, synthetic ruby was expensive and in demand!
3. No mention of treatment, type of treatment nor the level of treatment. Note that natural does NOT mean untreated.

There is a GIA branch in India and that is probably the easiest for you.
http://www.giaindia.in/gia/index.aspx
GIA India Laboratory Pvt. Ltd.
10th Flr, Trade Centre,
Bandra Kurla Complex,
Bandra (East), Mumbai - 400 051
Tel No. +91 22 4085 1500

 

[T L]

I'm sure that it is a natural ruby as my grandmother remembers it being very expensive in those times as well.
I have one certificate which i got a while back. ill t attach its picture as well.
Please give me your option as one of the testing here costs a lot.

The measurements roughly as 35mm*10mm*. As you can see it is studded so its a bit difficult to measure accurately.

The setting looks rather strange, not something I would see an expensive natural ruby put in, but more of a synthetic, especially with all those flat tipped prongs.

Just because your grandmother said it was expensive, doesn't mean its natural.

Chrono gave an excellent lab in India, so if you can get there, I would recommend it.

 

[chrono]

TL,
I've noticed that coloured stones in Asia are often-time set very differently, especially in older settings or lower quality settings. The prongs are the fold-over style, probably to compensate for uneven girdles and softer MOH stones. Just my observation since I have a few such settings in 22kt gold. I would concur with you on modern or Western made setting but in this particular case, I think it is debatable.

ETA
Forgot to add a "native" setting picture which is my heirloom pair of earrings.

 

[T L]

Thanks for pointing that out Chrono.

 

[colorchange]

Looks very suspicious, too good to be true, and I can’t remember ever seeing a large clean ruby with such a shape. No fluorescence is typically un-natural as well, especially for an old gem, and even more one purported to be Burmese.

If you want to save on the cost of GIA, IGI is a reasonably good lab, that will make a small card for $15.
They have got labs in New Delhi and Kolkata.

If this gem turns out to be genuine, I can easilly give you a price range for it (I mean how much I'd pay for it).

 

[ruchiramani]

I dont live in those cities so i could go there and get it tested but im not sure that i the whole trip would be worth it, that is why i'm trying to figure out a way to determine whether it is real or not. If you could tell me any methods to test it at home so that i can decide if making the trip to get this tested would be worth it.

 

[eastjavaman]

Very cool, you can estimate the price by clicking on Elizabeth Taylor's ruby link that is smaller than your ruby. We might have a new masterpiece here.

http://thejewelerblog.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/elizabeth-taylors-perfect-ruby-is-an-auction-record-breaker-was-a-christmas-gift-from-richard-burton-in-1968/

I suppose Pricescope is more famous than GIA India

 

[kenny]

While not conclusive proof, here is some info that greatly increases the probability it is synthetic.

No gem cutter wastes rough material, especially expensive material.
The final gem, or gems, cut from the rough will have a shape that uses as much of the rough as possible.
The following suggests your ruby is synthetic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verneuil_process ...

quote
"Verneuil process
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Verneuil process, also called flame fusion, was the first commercially successful method of manufacturing synthetic gemstones, developed in 1902 by the French chemist Auguste Verneuil. It is primarily used to produce the ruby and sapphire varieties of corundum, as well as the diamond simulants rutile and strontium titanate. The principle of the process involves melting a finely powdered substance using an oxyhydrogen flame, and crystallising the melted droplets into a boule. The process is considered to be the founding step of modern industrial crystal growth technology, and remains in wide use to this day."
end quote

Please go to the link above to read the whole article.

A boule is a single-crystal ingot produced by synthetic means.
Look at the shape of the synthetic rough crystals when I google "boule ruby".



Now look at the shape of the natural rough crystals when I google "mined ruby rough".



IMO, your ruby's extremely long shape matching that of the synthetics made in your grandmother's day is very strong evidence you have a synthetic ruby.

But, since there is a tiny chance it's natural and therefore worth a fortune (and it being natural is stuck in your mind) I think you should just find a way to pay for a reputable lab to see it.
If you don't this will bug you till your dying day.

Perhaps you could sell something, borrow from a friend or relative, or take out a loan from a bank to pay for the lab fee.
It is no criticism of your grandmother to say it's possible it was given to her and the giver didn't tell her it was synthetic, or the giver didn't know it was synthetic, or the seller did not tell the buyer it was synthetic, or the seller didn't even know it was synthetic.
Also 100 years of time passing and generations of passing down the story, and the natural desire for it to be a natural real ruby can distort what your grandmother felt she knew.

You should go on google and search for synthetic vs. natural ruby.
Twenty minutes ago I didn't know any of what I just posted.
Google is amazing.
Just type in your question or thoughts and see what comes up.

This link is a good start: http://www.geo.utexas.edu/courses/347k/redesign/Gem_Notes/Corundum/corundum_triple_frame.htm

 

[GoldfishPie]

I think this is definitely lab created. Looking at that Elizabeth Taylor ring then back to your ring, you can see the differences in the clarity. Not to mention the shape! That was some good internet sleuthing on Kenny's part.

It's still a cool ring though! Keep it in the family and appreciate it for what it's worth: an interesting and beautiful lab created antique ring.

 

[VapidLapid]

I notice on the report it lists the weight as 6.82 gm (approx 10.00 carat).
A gem of 6.82 grams would be 34.1 carats.
There is an email contact on that report. I would start with emailing them to ask what tests were performed to determine it is natural and to clear up the weight discrepancy.

 

[chrono]

VL,
I'm guessing the stone was never unset, hence even the measurement was not taken, so the weight in grams is most likely to include the setting weight. The description says gross weight, which alludes to the entire ring, not the stone alone (net weight).

 

[VapidLapid]

Oh. Nevermind.

 

[lvzhiqiao]

I think the "GRS"or "Gubelin" certificate is best with the gems.

 

[kenny]

I think the "GRS"or "Gubelin" certificate is best with the gems.

Perhaps you are in Europe.

We don't see many of those reports in America ... neither place being more important, of course.

 

[Upgradable]

<-- I have a GRS on my ruby, but it is only 2 carats.

 

[T L]

GRS is a popular lab for rubies, but I wouldn't say its the 'best.' There are many labs, which have been mentioned above, that do just as fine a job on determining the aspects of a ruby, and if it's natural or synthetic.

 

[colorchange]

GRS is a popular lab for Asian dealers because it’s convenient (they have got labs in Bangkok, HK & Sri Lanka) and their reports look very good to the final buyer’s eye (a GIT report looks awful for instance, they should hire a designer).
I stopped using it a while ago, but since I heard they threaten with lawsuits anyone who says anything about them (even down to saying they are primarily based in one country or another), I can’t really say why here.

Most european traders of very fine gems rely on SSEF in my experience.

 

[chrono]

CC,
I've often heard from those in the trade that SSEF holds more weight than GRS in most of the European region. To add to your post, I've also heard that some well known gemmologists threatened with a lawsuit from GRS for supposedly discussing the merits and demerits of going with a GRS report. Perhaps a cease and desist "order" is a more accurate term?

 

[colorchange]

SSEF has a consistent record of being a top, extremely reliable lab, GIA is now often considered to be leading in term of research and Gubelin is extremely famous, and does hold a massive clout.
For instance, when it comes to very important gems, Gubelin & SSEF are trusted to give independent opinions on the "importance" of gems.

Right now, important gems typically sell with SSEF & Gubelin, it feels to me like GIA is making its way, and we'll see GIA & SSEF or GIA & Gubelin more often in the future.

To me, all three hold more weight.

I am not going to discuss GRS as these guys are against an open discussion, and unique in that respect.