Vent... contracts and my florist.

[Gypsy]

So I agree to book the florist, Michelle.

She asks me for the deposit.

I say, where''s the contract.

She says, you''ll get it AFTER I get the non-refundable deposit.

*SNORT* No, contract first, then deposit. Oh, and Michelle, send it to me in a WORD document. (Word documents are revisable)

She sends it to me in a PDF (non-revisable) with a cute note about how Adobe Acrobat works and where I can download it if I''m not familiar with it, and that I should sign it and return it to her with the deposit.

I check the settings on the PDF. Hmm... full security isn''t enabled. I can copy the text into MS Word. Lovely. I send her a note reminding her that I''m a contracts attorney, that I consider contracts "wishlists" and that I don''t feel hers is equitable. And to expect a revised contact from me shortly that is equitable to both parties.

I copy it into MS Word. Contract is TERRIBLY written, but I ignore that. Take out all the BS about incurring strange fees, having my credit card on file for them, non refundable deposits even if SHE cancels because she can''t perform her obligations... and other provisons clearly written by someone on crack who thinks that their client''s are drunk, blind or stupid.

Contract left a bad taste in my mouth. I redlined the HECK out of it. Sent it back.

If she doesn''t play ball, I''m moving on to a different florist. Do you know HOW MANY florists there are in the bay area? LMAO.

I''m willing to give her the benifit of the doubt as the thing was SO badly written it was obvious it had been cut and paste together from different sources. But if she thinks I''m agreeing to any of that BS she''s cracked. Seriously. I wanted to re-write the thing for her it was so bad. If she''s nice about all of the changes, I may offer to. For a reduction in floral price.

Don''t mess with me when it comes to contracts. It only ticks me off. And don''t send me PDFs. I have multi million/billion dollar companies who try that with me on a daily basis and it doesn''t work. It''s not gonna work from a florist working out of a dinky warehouse in South San Fran.

 

[Harleigh]

LmAo, Gypsy! I am over here slapping my knees over your description of your ordeal!

If I didn''t know how much you liked this gal, I would suggest you run...far and fast, but maybe she really just has no clue.

I hope she wisens up and meets what you need to get her to work for you, but I''m sorry you''re having to deal with it, nonetheless.

Hang in there...can''t wait to hear what her reply is!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 2/22/2008 1:52:34 AM
Author: Harleigh
LmAo, Gypsy! I am over here slapping my knees over your description of your ordeal!

If I didn''t know how much you liked this gal, I would suggest you run...far and fast, but maybe she really just has no clue.

I hope she wisens up and meets what you need to get her to work for you, but I''m sorry you''re having to deal with it, nonetheless.

Hang in there...can''t wait to hear what her reply is!

It''s not a big deal, in the scheme of things. It may be for her with a contract like that running around. Or it may not. A lot of people don''t bother to read contracts, or don''t understand them fully when they do. You needed a roadmap and tequila to figure this one out, so maybe she just confuses her client''s into submission.

It''s just a pet peeve of mine. And the PDF thing is REALLY a HUGE ENORMOUS PET PEEVE of mine. And of course, she couldn''t have known that. Glad to provide laughs.

If I have to find a different florist I will. There are about 5 on my list of ones whose work I''ve liked that I never even contacted. As I''m pretty much done with my vendor hunt, backtracking on this one isn''t a big deal. But the contract IS a big enough deal to me that it''s a show stopper. She doesn''t move, I will.

 

[bee*]

I can''t believe that she wanted the money first without a contract! Hopefully she''ll get back to you and accept the changes that you made.

 

[Maisie]

Good for you Gypsy!!

I can just imagine her face when she reads the new and improved contract!

I don''t like any of the florists near me. They act like they are doing you a huge favour taking on your wedding. I did most of my own floral arrangements when we got married.

 

[mimzy]

ick! i hope that she complies with the changes you made. i would have been terrified to sign a contract like that!

 

[Courtneylub]

I love how she sent you a "cute little note" about how to download Adobe and use PDF. LOL

 

[staceybelle]

Ha! I love it.

I''m a second year law student, so I feel your pain about wedding vendors and crappy contracts.

Another thing that irks me -- when vendors try to tell you that reading their contract is unnecessary because "it''s just the standard contract." I''m like, um, no. I was a terrible contracts student, but I know enough to realize that there is no "standard contract." And then I sit there and read the whole thing while they watch me. Awkward, yes, but I''m sure more so for them than for me. As you say, if they don''t like it, I can take my business elsewhere. I''m not signing an adhesion contract just because it''s my wedding and I have stars in my eyes.

My photographer is a judge during the day and a wedding photographer on the weekends, and his contract was the best by far. Succinct and lacking the legalese that other vendors put in just so they would sound important. And he didn''t mind that I read the whole thing.

 

[Octavia]

I can definitely appreciate your position, too, Gypsy -- I''m a first-year law student and I''m already stressing about my (as yet nonexistant) vendor contracts. It was my best subject last semester, but right now I feel like I know enough to be very wary and not enough to really know what the hell I should be doing to protect myself...hopefully by the time we''re actually signing contracts for this thing, I''ll have this semester plus one more under my belt and will be a little more comfortable (and/or will have professors willing to lend a hand

). I definitely have a different perspective now than I did a year ago!

Good for you for being firm -- I hope it all works our to your satisfaction.

 

[LegacyGirl]

This is one of the best things that come from law school! So many people get screwed/don''t understand their contract or WORSE don''t read their contracts... good for you Gypsy!

And a contracts attorney... man I hated contracts. But bankruptcy... now that''s my thing

 

[Gypsy]

Bankruptcy gives me a headache LOL.

I''d rather redline all day than deal with that. Yeah, for any of us with the legal training (any many without who are used to dealing with contracts or are aware that they need to read them through) the vendor contracts are a PITA.

I contracted 4 other florists for qoutes today. Now I''m just motivated to get the best deal from them that I can. Michelle was already over budget... so I might as well shop around now, and if I get a better contract set up out of it, the better.

 

[enbcfsobe]

I feel your pain on this -- I dealt with this with my venue and it was monumentally annoying. They were willing to change, they just couldn''t understand why I thought it wasn''t good enough for them to just verbally assure me that they wouldn''t charge me for every amp of electricity they used because they "never actually charge for that" and that they didn''t really mean it when they said I was liable for any damage to the facility caused by 3d party vendors. suuuure. I started having nightmares about the parole evidence rule. The venue was a big deal for us or I wouldn''t have bothered with the hassle. Luckily, all my other vendors have been extremely simple with their agreements -- just the basics (who will show up, when and how much it will cost). I think that is the safest way to do things, and anything else important to the parties can be added. I just don''t think a DJ or florist needs boilerplate for every possible contingency, and usually it seems to just be there to hide all the extra fees, cost increases and anything else they don''t want you to notice. It is much harder to do that in a simple agreement.
I hear you on PDFs. I definitely use PDFs when I send things I don''t want to be altered, especially when I draft things for clients. But it is annoying when I get stuff in a PDF from opposing counsel. It is pretty much a message that whatever is being sent is considered non-negotiable. Appropriate sometimes, but not from your florist!!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:24:18 PM
Author: enbcfsobe
I feel your pain on this -- I dealt with this with my venue and it was monumentally annoying. They were willing to change, they just couldn''t understand why I thought it wasn''t good enough for them to just verbally assure me that they wouldn''t charge me for every amp of electricity they used because they ''never actually charge for that'' and that they didn''t really mean it when they said I was liable for any damage to the facility caused by 3d party vendors. suuuure. I started having nightmares about the parole evidence rule. The venue was a big deal for us or I wouldn''t have bothered with the hassle. Luckily, all my other vendors have been extremely simple with their agreements -- just the basics (who will show up, when and how much it will cost). I think that is the safest way to do things, and anything else important to the parties can be added. I just don''t think a DJ or florist needs boilerplate for every possible contingency, and usually it seems to just be there to hide all the extra fees, cost increases and anything else they don''t want you to notice. It is much harder to do that in a simple agreement.
I hear you on PDFs. I definitely use PDFs when I send things I don''t want to be altered, especially when I draft things for clients. But it is annoying when I get stuff in a PDF from opposing counsel. It is pretty much a message that whatever is being sent is considered non-negotiable. Appropriate sometimes, but not from your florist!!

I use PDFs more internally than externally. When I send things to our engineers (who can just do amazing nd irreversible things to a word document) I send PDF. But most of the time I''m drafting and customizing a contract, or starting negotiations with a Supplier or vendor and I KNOW I have unreasonable terms in there (I put them there so that they feel happy when I let them take them out...lol) so I send over Word files. ANd I tell opposing cousel or whoever I''m dealing with on the other side in the rare instances where I agree to use THEIR contracts instead of my own, that unless its a few certain LIMITED types of contracts it BETTER be in Word or they aren''t getting bumpkis.

But then I''m supply side, so I''m the customer, and I have leverage. If I was in sales, I''d probably have to put up with more PDFs from our customers. We only have 20 customers and they are all big fortune 5 type companies with SERIOUSLY DEADLY LEVERAGE. So basically it''s bend over and take what they give you. I''m so GLAD I''m don''t deal with those contracts, I can''t tell you!

 

[CJ2008]

You know what I find interesting? Vendors always tell you it''s the standard contract, it''s what everyone uses, blah blah blah. The thing is, they are sweet as pie before you sign it...but once you do, and you have a problem, they''re nowhere to be found, or worse, they''ll actually point you to what the contract says. And who do you have to blame at that point? Only yourself. I''m not a lawyer, but I''m extremely detailed, and I always look through contracts with a fine tooth comb.

 

[VRBeauty]

Hmmm... why not offer to set up some standard contract templates for her (after your wedding, of course) in exchange for her floral fees...

 

[enbcfsobe]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:35:04 PM
Author: Gypsy

Date: 2/22/2008 2:24:18 PM
Author: enbcfsobe
I feel your pain on this -- I dealt with this with my venue and it was monumentally annoying. They were willing to change, they just couldn''t understand why I thought it wasn''t good enough for them to just verbally assure me that they wouldn''t charge me for every amp of electricity they used because they ''never actually charge for that'' and that they didn''t really mean it when they said I was liable for any damage to the facility caused by 3d party vendors. suuuure. I started having nightmares about the parole evidence rule. The venue was a big deal for us or I wouldn''t have bothered with the hassle. Luckily, all my other vendors have been extremely simple with their agreements -- just the basics (who will show up, when and how much it will cost). I think that is the safest way to do things, and anything else important to the parties can be added. I just don''t think a DJ or florist needs boilerplate for every possible contingency, and usually it seems to just be there to hide all the extra fees, cost increases and anything else they don''t want you to notice. It is much harder to do that in a simple agreement.
I hear you on PDFs. I definitely use PDFs when I send things I don''t want to be altered, especially when I draft things for clients. But it is annoying when I get stuff in a PDF from opposing counsel. It is pretty much a message that whatever is being sent is considered non-negotiable. Appropriate sometimes, but not from your florist!!

I use PDFs more internally than externally. When I send things to our engineers (who can just do amazing nd irreversible things to a word document) I send PDF. But most of the time I''m drafting and customizing a contract, or starting negotiations with a Supplier or vendor and I KNOW I have unreasonable terms in there (I put them there so that they feel happy when I let them take them out...lol) so I send over Word files. ANd I tell opposing cousel or whoever I''m dealing with on the other side in the rare instances where I agree to use THEIR contracts instead of my own, that unless its a few certain LIMITED types of contracts it BETTER be in Word or they aren''t getting bumpkis.

But then I''m supply side, so I''m the customer, and I have leverage. If I was in sales, I''d probably have to put up with more PDFs from our customers. We only have 20 customers and they are all big fortune 5 type companies with SERIOUSLY DEADLY LEVERAGE. So basically it''s bend over and take what they give you. I''m so GLAD I''m don''t deal with those contracts, I can''t tell you!

We''ve had issues with clients changing documents that we drafted for them. Things like, oh, severance agreements, employee handbooks, and other things that have to contain "magic words" to avoid a lawsuit. It''s not an issue of negotiation with clients -- its a question of some of them thinking they know better despite all the $ they pay us and then blaming us later. If it''s hard to change the document, usually they won''t bother or they''ll ask us to do it and then we can explain why that''s bad/impractical/illegal. Oh, the joys.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 2/22/2008 4:33:46 PM
Author: enbcfsobe

We''ve had issues with clients changing documents that we drafted for them. Things like, oh, severance agreements, employee handbooks, and other things that have to contain ''magic words'' to avoid a lawsuit. It''s not an issue of negotiation with clients -- its a question of some of them thinking they know better despite all the $ they pay us and then blaming us later. If it''s hard to change the document, usually they won''t bother or they''ll ask us to do it and then we can explain why that''s bad/impractical/illegal. Oh, the joys.

Ahh. Gotcha. Morons. *shakes head*

 

[Kaleigh]

Date: 2/22/2008 2:56:53 PM
Author: MINIMS
Hmmm... why not offer to set up some standard contract templates for her (after your wedding, of course) in exchange for her floral fees...

That''s what I was thinking!!!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 2/22/2008 6:28:50 PM
Author: Kaleigh

Date: 2/22/2008 2:56:53 PM
Author: MINIMS
Hmmm... why not offer to set up some standard contract templates for her (after your wedding, of course) in exchange for her floral fees...

That's what I was thinking!!!

If I go with her, I may offer to do that (I actually mentioned that possibility in my initial post, just before the little devil guy).

We'll see what she says about the contract though. And if I revise it, it will be AFTER I sign my contract. My contracts have teeth, not the ridiculous clauses in hers, but ones that will actually protect her much better than what she's got in there now.

But I'm gonna delay her now for the weekend even if she's okay with the changes, since I've asked for the additional qoutes already. Might as well get those in right?