WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF decide?

[ChunkyCushionLover]

This is a question for a WF representative but I welcome others input as well.

1) In your rough planning process how do you decide which type of pavilion to cut?

2) What factors go into the decision whether to cut a WF ACA princess with either 2, 3 or 4 chevrons in its pavilion?

3)How would you describe the appearance differences between them with respect to Fire, Scintillation and Brightness?

I would be appreciative if Allison or Bob would be willing to provide some insight into their wonderful brand of princess cuts designed for light performance.

CCL

 

[septsparkle]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

I am interested in this as well, particularly since I've seen both 3 and 4 chevron ACA's on their site.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

Bump

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

This is a question for a WF representative but I welcome others input as well.

1) In your rough planning process how do you decide which type of pavilion to cut?

2) What factors go into the decision whether to cut a WF ACA princess with either 2, 3 or 4 chevrons in its pavilion?

3)How would you describe the appearance differences between them with respect to Fire, Scintillation and Brightness?

I would be appreciative if Allison or Bob would be willing to provide some insight into their wonderful brand of princess cuts designed for light performance.

CCL

Good questions seem to be those with no easy answers!

As any of the diamond merchants working in this area of the business will tell you, stocking an inventory of AGS Ideal princess cuts is quite the challenge. AGS cut quality standards are so unforgiving that many manufacturers have simply given up trying to make them. A true super-ideal like the Whiteflash ACA Princess, which must be AGS0 as well as passing additional in-house reviews and testing, limits potential candidates to the very best of the best.

The question about the selection of the rough is an important one. In fact, the scarcity of the type of rough needed to produce ideal princess cuts has been restricting supply for some time. When that situation will improve nobody can predict.

An AGS0 cut grade alone attests to a diamond’s potential for exceptional performance in brightness, scintillation and fire. There is no hard and fast requirement for ACA princess in terms of the facet arrangement (e.g. number of chevrons). We focus more on overall light performance. Different facet arrangements can give rise to different “flavors”. For instance, a 2 chevron make can sometimes show bigger, broader flashes of light return since the facets are fewer and larger, while 4 or 5 chevron can have more of a sparkle effect. Whether one favors one or the other is a matter of personal taste.
The “flavor” of a princess is also influenced by particular proportion sets within AGS0 parameters. It is the complex interplay of proportions and facet arrangement that determine the specific pattern and “flavor” of a princess.

The complexity of assessing the cut quality of princess cuts is demonstrated by the fact that GIA still does not provide overall cut grade on them. For related reasons, the set of parameters that we use to vet our Whiteflash ACA Round are narrower than those used in our review of ACA princess. Thus there is a wider range of combinations that will produce stones that we feel are superior enough to earn our top brand, and it’s been this way since we began offering ACA princess stones 4-5 years ago.

I hope that provides some insight into how truly rare and exceptional these stones are, and how there will always be an element of personal taste involved in selecting them. Good quality photographs, Ideal Scope and especially ASET images are fantastic tools for assessing different patterns and flavors. Of course, you can’t experience the full extent of their dynamic beauty until you see one in person.

Bryan Boyne, g.g.
VP Whiteflash Inc.

 

[stone-cold11]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

So what is the cut off for an AGS0 ES and an AGS0 ACA?

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

So what is the cut off for an AGS0 ES and an AGS0 ACA?

There is no particular cutoff point that can be pinpointed. Our vetting process consists of a comprehensive review of each stone including visual inspection and analysis of all the lab grading data. In addition we capture and review three types of light performance images. Our process for ACA branding involves review by a team of three Whiteflash experts including two GIA graduate gemologists. Unanimous consent is needed for a diamond to become an ACA.

AGS 0 princess cuts that, for whatever reason (s), do not earn the ACA brand will be found in our ES category.

It’s a little like jumping hurdles or climbing mountains. Just when you get to the summit (AGS0) you find there is another peak to climb (ACA). When you finally get there and plant the flag it is quite an accomplishment! It is always a joy when a stone makes ACA and disappointing when it doesn’t. But they are all superb diamonds.

Our hope is that more rough will become available at prices that enable greater production. The only thing harder than assembling a good inventory of AGS 0 princess cuts is keeping them in stock. It’s a constant struggle to have the sizes, colors and clarities to meet the demand for these elite gems.

Bryan Boyne, g.g.
VP Whiteflash Inc.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

Good questions seem to be those with no easy answers!

Thank-you for replying and helping us become more educated on this forum. I appreciate that you don't post often and have chosen to kindly answer my queries. I hope you won't mind answering some follow up questions as you haven't gotten to the answers I was looking for.

As any of the diamond merchants working in this area of the business will tell you, stocking an inventory of AGS Ideal princess cuts is quite the challenge. AGS cut quality standards are so unforgiving that many manufacturers have simply given up trying to make them. A true super-ideal like the Whiteflash ACA Princess, which must be AGS0 as well as passing additional in-house reviews and testing, limits potential candidates to the very best of the best.

You are preaching to the choir on well cut versus standard princess cuts. Overcoming and justifying the price premium that must be charged as a result of lower rough yields for these type of princess cuts must be a challenge for your company with many consumers.[/color]

The question about the selection of the rough is an important one. In fact, the scarcity of the type of rough needed to produce ideal princess cuts has been restricting supply for some time. When that situation will improve nobody can predict.

What type of rough do you require? (Assuming Octahedron rough with near perfectly formed corners?)
How would the rough shape dictate how many chevrons you put on the pavilion?

An AGS0 cut grade alone attests to a diamond’s potential for exceptional performance in brightness, scintillation and fire. There is no hard and fast requirement for ACA princess in terms of the facet arrangement (e.g. number of chevrons). We focus more on overall light performance. Different facet arrangements can give rise to different “flavors”. For instance, a 2 chevron make can sometimes show bigger, broader flashes of light return since the facets are fewer and larger, while 4 or 5 chevron can have more of a sparkle effect. Whether one favors one or the other is a matter of personal taste.

Yes this has been touched on here https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/how-many-chevrons-in-a-princess-cut.148655/ which is why I started this thread.

Within AGS ideal light performance proportions and with both pavilion styles available, would larger size diamonds be more preferentially cut with a larger number of chevrons or does the shape of the rough and yield take precedence?

On average would larger size diamonds be more preferentially cut with a larger number of chevrons (due to a larger and more noticeable average VF size)?

Do you have any examples of 5 chevron princess cuts that have attainted the cut quality of an ACA princess?

The complexity of assessing the cut quality of princess cuts is demonstrated by the fact that GIA still does not provide overall cut grade on them. For related reasons, the set of parameters that we use to vet our Whiteflash ACA Round are narrower than those used in our review of ACA princess. Thus there is a wider range of combinations that will produce stones that we feel are superior enough to earn our top brand, and it’s been this way since we began offering ACA princess stones 4-5 years ago.

Fair enough, Fancy shapes aren't held to the same rigid standard as rounds, seems logical.

I hope that provides some insight into how truly rare and exceptional these stones are, and how there will always be an element of personal taste involved in selecting them. Good quality photographs, Ideal Scope and especially ASET images are fantastic tools for assessing different patterns and flavors. Of course, you can’t experience the full extent of their dynamic beauty until you see one in person.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

bump

 

[Allison D.]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

bump

CCL, I just wanted to chime in to let you know that Bryan's out this week and has a few client appointments once he returns early next week, so it may be a bit of time before he can reply to your questions.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

bump

CCL, I just wanted to chime in to let you know that Bryan's out this week and has a few client appointments once he returns early next week, so it may be a bit of time before he can reply to your questions.

Thanks Allison look forward to his response next week.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

CCL, not Allison or Bob, but this caught my eye. A few of years ago I was helping a couple of guys hunt for princesses. And I seem to recall that the ACA princesses at that time were all 3 chevron. And pretty darned consistent.

It looks like that has changed at WF, but when I look at BGD's princesses (someone on a tread had two of them up) it looks like BGDs are still consistent and also have three chevrons. Maybe the reason for the change is that three Chevrons was Brian G's preference, which he's carried over to BGD, while the WF team is exploring different types of princesses?

The question that raises for me is... when WF sold the ACA's with 3 chevrons were those from a house cutting to their standards for them? And if so, is WF now having the cutting houses experiement with the facet patterning of the princesses? Or are they just purchasing cut stones offered to dealers and branding them ACA, regardless of the facetting as long as some other factors are being met?

I'm interested to see what Brian has to say when we returns. Great thread CCL.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

I’m back from vacation and getting caught up. I would post a picture of the redfish I caught out of my kayak, but that would probably be inappropriate for this channel

CCL- I think your assumptions are sound in that bigger stones tend to support greater number of chevrons, giving the cutter some additional options in terms of “flavor” and perhaps weight retention. The calculus involves a host of considerations and literally every rough stone is unique and complex. Some of the many mind-numbing factors a cutter must analyze in planning involve market forces. For instance, most stones are destined for the GIA market as there is much greater volume of demand and it is much easier to make a nice looking stone with a sellable GIA paper than it is to make a superb AGS 0. The cutter also must consider his own particular inventory levels and the downstream demand of particular clients. He might make one decision planning a rough stone today, and go a different direction tomorrow depending on his current view of his market.

The AGS cut grading system is performance based, and our vetting process for ACA expands upon it by looking at other factors that might negatively impact the performance or value of the diamond. We believe that using as our baseline the ultimate cut grade from the most demanding and respected laboratory in the world in terms of cut quality analysis, and placing our own additional requirements on these stones in order to award the ACA brand, we can assure our customers the finest performance technically possible.

With regard to exact facet arrangement of a princess (e.g. # of chevrons), we feel that some diversity is appropriate as individual customers may have preferences for one pattern over another. (note: 5 chevron arrangements are not currently cut graded by AGS and therefore there are no examples in ACA). The hallmark of the Whiteflash ACA is the consistent assurance of overall cut craftsmanship and light performance at the extremes of what is currently possible. The strength of the ACA brand and it’s popularity among knowledgeable diamond shoppers is the fact that there is no compromise in the most important “C” from which all of what is so special about diamonds derives- brilliance, fire and scintillation.

Bryan Boyne, g.g.
VP- Whiteflash Inc.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

I’m back from vacation and getting caught up. I would post a picture of the redfish I caught out of my kayak, but that would probably be inappropriate for this channel

CCL- I think your assumptions are sound in that bigger stones tend to support greater number of chevrons, giving the cutter some additional options in terms of “flavor” and perhaps weight retention. The calculus involves a host of considerations and literally every rough stone is unique and complex. Some of the many mind-numbing factors a cutter must analyze in planning involve market forces. For instance, most stones are destined for the GIA market as there is much greater volume of demand and it is much easier to make a nice looking stone with a sellable GIA paper than it is to make a superb AGS 0. The cutter also must consider his own particular inventory levels and the downstream demand of particular clients. He might make one decision planning a rough stone today, and go a different direction tomorrow depending on his current view of his market.

The AGS cut grading system is performance based, and our vetting process for ACA expands upon it by looking at other factors that might negatively impact the performance or value of the diamond. We believe that using as our baseline the ultimate cut grade from the most demanding and respected laboratory in the world in terms of cut quality analysis, and placing our own additional requirements on these stones in order to award the ACA brand, we can assure our customers the finest performance technically possible.

With regard to exact facet arrangement of a princess (e.g. # of chevrons), we feel that some diversity is appropriate as individual customers may have preferences for one pattern over another. (note: 5 chevron arrangements are not currently cut graded by AGS and therefore there are no examples in ACA). The hallmark of the Whiteflash ACA is the consistent assurance of overall cut craftsmanship and light performance at the extremes of what is currently possible. The strength of the ACA brand and it’s popularity among knowledgeable diamond shoppers is the fact that there is no compromise in the most important “C” from which all of what is so special about diamonds derives- brilliance, fire and scintillation.

Bryan Boyne, g.g.
VP- Whiteflash Inc.

Mr. Boyne,

Thank-you for the responses so far. I have suggested a WF ACA princess to several consumers in the past but I would like to learn some of the finer details.

The following questions have largely remained unaswered.

What type of rough do you require? (Assuming Octahedron rough with near perfectly formed corners?)
How would the rough shape dictate how many chevrons you put on the pavilion?

A specific example with commentary and images would be most helpful here.

Gypsy also asked questions regarding if WF selects from general inventory of a cutting house, or requests stones to be exclusively cut with WF ACA princess standards in mind.

Please focus on these questions specifically, this thread was not started so you could promote the WF ACA or make general comments highlighting the virtues of AGS ideal princess cuts over the standard higher yield princess.

There are several other AGS ideal princess cut vendors on pricescope (like GOG, or Infinity Dealers) who could make the same general comments about their branded princess cuts as you have, some have gone into much more educational detail than offered here.

https://www.pricescope.com/journal/cutting_ags0princess_experience_lab
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/ags_new_cutgrading_princesses_first_experience
http://www.vimeo.com/10464275

I was hoping for a lot more detailed technical answers and that Whiteflash would step up to this higher educational level for my own and other pricescopers benefit.

If you cannot elevate the level of technical detail in your responses than this is more of a promotional thread for WF ACA Princess alone and is pretty disappointing.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Bump For Whiteflash

Bump

 

[Karl_K]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

ccl

WF is not and never has been a cutting house, they contract the cutting to an Antwerp siteholder.
You questions about what types of rough are needed is best addressed in a generic thread so others can answer.
This thread being specific to WF they can't answer.

The main question about how a princess cut becomes an ACA was answered.
They evaluate AGS0 princess cuts to find those suitable to the brand.

Someone from WF can correct me if im wrong but I believe that the ACA rounds are still using the cut to spec then evaluate procedure which is why you see fewer variations.

 

[Allison D.]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

Thanks, Karl, for so eloquently saying that which I was struggling to say.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

ccl

WF is not and never has been a cutting house, they contract the cutting to an Antwerp siteholder.
You questions about what types of rough are needed is best addressed in a generic thread so others can answer.
This thread being specific to WF they can't answer.

Good suggestion, if WF can't or won't answer those questions I'll follow up with another thread and make it more general.

The main question about how a princess cut becomes an ACA was answered.

Its a question I didn't ask, nor is the criteria clear (maybe for commercial reasons). The general answer given to SC's question about what additional criteria above the AGS 0 princess crtieria differentiate an ES from an ACA is thorough enough. Three experts have to agree from looking at the diamond and three different images(IS, ASET, Photograph?) that the diamond fits the standards for each category.

They evaluate AGS0 princess cuts to find those suitable to the brand.
Well then that is a good answer, but one that should have been made by WF themself!

Someone from WF can correct me if im wrong but I believe that the ACA rounds are still using the cut to spec then evaluate procedure which is why you see fewer variations.

Your clear and concise answers are much appreciated. Thank-you.

 

[Karl_K]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

Allison sometimes you just have to be blunt.

ccl: careful reading of what is posted above will show he did say so just not in so many words.
As far as specific brand criteria that is proprietary information. Some people are willing to share more than others but I don't know of anyone who will spell it out in great detail.
One of the things I enjoyed doing as a consumer was figuring that out based on the end product.
Drove a few vendors nuts for a while doing so. lol

 

[Allison D.]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

Allison sometimes you just have to be blunt.

ccl: careful reading of what is posted above will show he did say so just not in so many words.
As far as specific brand criteria that is proprietary information. Some people are willing to share more than others but I don't know of anyone who will spell it out in great detail.
One of the things I enjoyed doing as a consumer was figuring that out based on the end product.
Drove a few vendors nuts for a while doing so. lol

Alas, Karl, I've lost the art of being blunt in this arena, it seems, largely because the flavor has changed and God forbid you might offend someone's sensibilities these days or be perceived as 'insulting' that which they know. I end up with 'post paralysis' more times than I can tell you these days.

(This isn't specific to CCL or anyone on this thread at all; it's a general feeling I get now whenever I contemplating posting something.)

In days of old, I'd have suggested 'hey, reread what Bryan wrote; he did answer those questions." I'd have written "we're happy to provide some details, but hopefully you understand that just as KFC isn't going to divulge their particular blend of spices (whether to satisfy the curious or even to help those who just want to make better chicken), some things are proprietary."

But as I'm in the midst of typing something along those lines, it occurs to me that it may be construed as "Allison's implying I don't know how to read" or "they're hiding something." And then I delete.

CCL, I know you're a bottom-line kinda person, but concise isn't some folks' strong suit. Bryan was genuinely trying to help convey that there are just so many variables in the fancy space, it's not a cut/dried, black/white thing. I'm sorry you interpreted that as a lack of willingness to be forthcoming.

 

[ChunkyCushionLover]

Re: WF ACA Princess 2,3,4 Chevron Pavilion: How does WF deci

Allison sometimes you just have to be blunt.

ccl: careful reading of what is posted above will show he did say so just not in so many words.
As far as specific brand criteria that is proprietary information. Some people are willing to share more than others but I don't know of anyone who will spell it out in great detail.
One of the things I enjoyed doing as a consumer was figuring that out based on the end product.
Drove a few vendors nuts for a while doing so. lol

Alas, Karl, I've lost the art of being blunt in this arena, it seems, largely because the flavor has changed and God forbid you might offend someone's sensibilities these days or be perceived as 'insulting' that which they know. I end up with 'post paralysis' more times than I can tell you these days.

(This isn't specific to CCL or anyone on this thread at all; it's a general feeling I get now whenever I contemplating posting something.)

In days of old, I'd have suggested 'hey, reread what Bryan wrote; he did answer those questions." I'd have written "we're happy to provide some details, but hopefully you understand that just as KFC isn't going to divulge their particular blend of spices (whether to satisfy the curious or even to help those who just want to make better chicken), some things are proprietary."

But as I'm in the midst of typing something along those lines, it occurs to me that it may be construed as "Allison's implying I don't know how to read" or "they're hiding something." And then I delete.

CCL, I know you're a bottom-line kinda person, but concise isn't some folks' strong suit. Bryan was genuinely trying to help convey that there are just so many variables in the fancy space, it's not a cut/dried, black/white thing. I'm sorry you interpreted that as a lack of willingness to be forthcoming.

Bryan's response(s) are a far cry from "I dont' know what the cutters do or how they decide, we just pick and choose from their inventory and apply our own selection criteria(secret) for our brand on top of AGS 0"

It is also easy enough to describe technical points in minute pinpoint detail in a general enough way so as to not give away "Trade secrets" yourself and WF has been given more than sufficient time, and declined to do so.

Sorry but their is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension nor Gypsy's, if you are in doubt please quote the lines in Bryan's lengthy paragraphs that directly answer our questions. BGD only offers the 3 Chevron type princess cut which leads me to the assumption that each of WF's suppliers likely focusses on limited number of pavilion configurations for both yield and time efficiency.

(This is a raw assumption I cannot validate as WF once again has declined to answer)

Just so you know your entire post was anything but helpful. You personally didn't attempt to answer any of my questions in this thread which you have known about for over a month. Most likely because you don't know and didn't take the time to find out, instead your participation here is to give your opinion on forum PC and wave at other trademembers. Congratulations on that you are very good at it.

On top of that unlike the other AGS 0 princess cut vendors(GOG, HPD) , WF does not provide .gem, or .srn files in their aca and es listings to allow consumers to answer these type of technical questions better for themselves.

I did a comparison video of Princess cuts (three AGS 0 ones) using Diamcalc found Here and could not include any of the 2,3,4 chevron varieties of WF ACA (I wanted to) because those files were not readily available.

I have reccomended WF for both cushions and Princess cuts on several occasions, WF is in my cushion guide, but really based on this thread and personal experience last year with two WF reps I have sufficient pause to reconsider further reccomendations. Your company's commitment to education is limited in comparison to other PS vendors at present.