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cheetahman

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
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I''ve only been around for a week or so, so I''m still a little new. However, I feel that I''ve picked up a lot.

What do people think about a stone that''s:

1.70 carats
VS2 clarity - I color
Ideal cut - rated by the vendor, probably as compared their very good and lower cuts. More on this later
Measurements - 7.58-7.54-4.71
Depth - 62.3
Table - 55
Crown - 14
Pavilion - 44
Gridle - THIN

It''s priced around $8000. Cut advisor gives it a 2.3.

I was looking to stay under $8500, so this fits. I was also looking for I, SI1 or better (got the better, which I wasn''t expecting), but above 1.70, so I''m kind of sacrificing by going with EGL and not getting something like an AGS0.

Pictures or seeing them in person wouldn''t help me. My eyes are terrible and I need glasses, but haven''t gotten them yet. My girlfriend with her contacts in has very good vision (as one might expect). She''s also the least picky person in the world when it comes to this. I want this to be a surprise as well.

Thanks for any guidance you can provide.
 
Another vendor just got back to me a recommendation a little bit off than I was looking for, but it''s one of those, maybe too good to be true things. Let me know if you can see anything wrong with this or if it should be priced higher.

1.63 carats (below what I was looking for)
SI1 clarity - I color
Measurements - 7.66 x 7.63 x 4.61 (even bigger despite the lower weight?)
Depth - 60.3
Table - 57
Crown - 14
Pavilion - 43
Girdle - THIN

Priced around $6300. Cut advisor gives it 0.8!

I consider both vendors to be equally reputable, so don''t factor that into the recommendation. I''m unsure how it can be a bigger size and less weight, but I guess the cut can explain it. I guess it could have more inclusions, but I''m okay with SI1 as 95% of the what I was looking for in my price range was that. Which do you think is theh better value without seeing it? I''m probably leaning towards this one with the better cut and the money savings.
 
Date: 10/24/2005 1:26:41 PM
Author: cheetahman
Another vendor just got back to me a recommendation a little bit off than I was looking for, but it''s one of those, maybe too good to be true things. Let me know if you can see anything wrong with this or if it should be priced higher.

1.63 carats (below what I was looking for)
SI1 clarity - I color
Measurements - 7.66 x 7.63 x 4.61 (even bigger despite the lower weight?)
Depth - 60.3
Table - 57
Crown - 14
Pavilion - 43
Girdle - THIN

Priced around $6300. Cut advisor gives it 0.8!

I consider both vendors to be equally reputable, so don''t factor that into the recommendation. I''m unsure how it can be a bigger size and less weight, but I guess the cut can explain it. I guess it could have more inclusions, but I''m okay with SI1 as 95% of the what I was looking for in my price range was that. Which do you think is theh better value without seeing it? I''m probably leaning towards this one with the better cut and the money savings.
Click to expand...
the depth. 60.3 vs 62.3
 
Date: 10/24/2005 1:01:07 PM
Author:cheetahman
I''ve only been around for a week or so, so I''m still a little new. However, I feel that I''ve picked up a lot.

What do people think about a stone that''s:

1.70 carats
VS2 clarity - I color
Ideal cut - rated by the vendor, probably as compared their very good and lower cuts. More on this later
Measurements - 7.58-7.54-4.71
Depth - 62.3
Table - 55
Crown - 14
Pavilion - 44
Gridle - THIN

It''s priced around $8000. Cut advisor gives it a 2.3.
Click to expand...
Perhaps check the measurements on #1. This diamond should only weigh around 1.60 carats.
If you can provide crown and pavilion angles for both it will allow more input.
 
The crown and pavilion are provided with both.

Dancing Fire, should I be concerned about that depth? Wouldn''t it be something that''s not really going to be due to the setting? If that''s the case, should I be looking for a more shallow diamond that''s well-cut to get the most for my money?

I''m thinking of eliminating #1 based on the cut advisor score. I got some more information about a couple of other diamonds that are 0.9 and 1.2 respectively with the cut advisor. Both of those seem to be just very good on the spread, but excellent elsewhere. I''ll try to post those later tonight.

I had been using carat weight as my guideline on size, but I think it''s smarter to use measurements. I''m not sure I''d notice the difference between 7.55mm and 7.75mm overall, and if there''s a significant price difference then I might as well pocket some cash.

So is there really anything that seems out of place with the 2nd one?
 
Date: 10/24/2005 3:23:49 PM
Author: cheetahman
The crown and pavilion are provided with both.

So is there really anything that seems out of place with the 2nd one?
Click to expand...
Note, the author of the HCA, while including allowance for percents, recommends getting angles even though you have percents to double check.

Also, recall your own comment:

"so I''m kind of sacrificing by going with EGL and not getting something like an AGS0."

the sacrifice is in consideration of both the cause for EGL being selected (recent discussion here points to the variability from one EGL to another), and the unknown quality of the result, since the grading that''s noted is frequently suspect.

Given these things, good values are there to be found, and the second one particularly may represent that.
 
Date: 10/24/2005 3:23:49 PM
Author: cheetahman

The crown and pavilion are provided with both.
Click to expand...
Cheetahman,

You've provided crown and pavilion height percentages. I am speaking of crown and pavilion angles. They will tell much more about the performance of the diamond.

As Ira mentioned, the HCA score will be much more accurate if you can use crown and pavilion angles.

Did you check the mm measurements on the first diamond? If it is being advertised as 1.7 with those measurements something is off.
 
Ahhh, I had missed where in the cut advisor page it says that angles and percentages should be used. I figured that generally you can get one or the other from the vendor and that it was a straight forward translation from one to the other. I'm probably not likely to get that data as the vendor that I'm looking for doesn't have the diamond. I've seen the EGL certification and I get the "opinion" that's it's great. I'm fairly sure they aren't going to dig up the angle values unless they are somewhere on the EGL cert that I'm not seeing.

I realize that by not coming with full data, there's going to be an uncertainty. I'm trying to figure out as to how much this stone can vary given the available information. How often are the numbers and angles of an EGL off? I would think that color and clarity can be subjective to within reason, but the numbers that I'm plugging into the cut advisor are not subjective.

I guess it boils down to, what are the odds that the second stone that comes back with a .8 cut advisor score (given the information I have), is truly a below average cut stone? Is it like 5% or 50%? Would you say that I have a 90% at having a excellent cut? 95%? 40%? If it's in the 90% range (heck even 80%), I'm probably just being neurotic.

Are there any questions you would ask if you were purchasing an EGL certified stone?

Should I be worried about the lower depth (as it says on the HCA page), or is 60-ish fine? Should I be worried about a thin girdle (which doesn't seem to factor into HCA)

I didn't check out the 1.7 carat diamond, but I might post a link to it later tonight. I pretty much eliminated it when I found two more stones with much better HCA scores, which I'll also try to post tonight.
 
Speaking of mispriced stones, when I was looking for comparable 1.6something I SI1 EGL stones, I found this 1.63 I SI1 EGL stone for $2137.87/carat, or $3484.73. Get that one, get that one!

Not including the obviously mispriced stone, the range here on PS is about $7500 to $9500, so yes, your price seems low. So maybe you should snatch up that stone before somebody else does. Or maybe you should make sure the suspicious odor isn''t coming from a rat. I can''t say that it''s too good to be true, but I would recommend making sure that you have a return period so that if an appraiser says it doesn''t match the report, you can return it.

If you do decide to consider H&A stones, here are two that came up through PS (the prices shown reflect the PS discount):

1.61 J SI1 for $7799

1.64 I SI2 for $8164

Remember that these stones were graded by the GIA, which may very well have given those EGL stones lower grades of J or SI2, so the color and clarity quality may be comparable.
 
As of right now I would vote for the second stone better HCA score and larger face up for less money.
Phoenix Girl I find it intreasting that you posted the 1.61 J/SI stone you did from GOG. I had my eye on it this summer and went to visit their store. When I asked to see it thought Tim told me it had sold. It has never been off their web page or the search by cut list though...
 
Thanks for the links PhoenixGirl, I''ll look into them. Before the vendor came up with the second stone and it''s measurements, I had excluded anything below 1.70 in my searches. I may now go back and revisit that idea. Initially, I''m sceptical about going J, but that might not be too bad. SI2 could be tough. When I was at a local jeweler, I could tell a huge difference between the two with my terrible eyes. Unless this EGL SI1 is really an SI2 and that GIA SI2 is SI1, it think it would be a bit of a shocker.

Over the weekend, I posted, asking about JewelryZone. Their website broke during my registration process and to be honest it doesn''t look like a professional website that I''d spend $20 at, much less $8000. So I''ve eliminated that even though I could probably get a 2.25 stone for the price I''m look at. I just don''t feel comfortable.

Thus after eliminating that store, I found a few vendors that seem to be legit. I followed it up with a search of the forums here and they all seem reputable and numerous people have bought from them here and praise them for their service. Of course they offer a preview period. Perhaps I should get an Ideal Scope and brush up on that technology (something that I haven''t read much about).
 
Date: 10/24/2005 5:37:01 PM
Author: cheetahman
Ahhh, I had missed where in the cut advisor page it says that angles and percentages should be used. I figured that generally you can get one or the other from the vendor and that it was a straight forward translation from one to the other. I''m probably not likely to get that data as the vendor that I''m looking for doesn''t have the diamond. I''ve seen the EGL certification and I get the ''opinion'' that''s it''s great. I''m fairly sure they aren''t going to dig up the angle values unless they are somewhere on the EGL cert that I''m not seeing.

I realize that by not coming with full data, there''s going to be an uncertainty. I''m trying to figure out as to how much this stone can vary given the available information. How often are the numbers and angles of an EGL off? I would think that color and clarity can be subjective to within reason, but the numbers that I''m plugging into the cut advisor are not subjective.

I guess it boils down to, what are the odds that the second stone that comes back with a .8 cut advisor score (given the information I have), is truly a below average cut stone? Is it like 5% or 50%? Would you say that I have a 90% at having a excellent cut? 95%? 40%? If it''s in the 90% range (heck even 80%), I''m probably just being neurotic.
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It''s hard to take a position about the given information''s accuracy. Percentages are often rounded for convenience (so your 14% crown height could actually be 13.8 or 14.2, etc.) The presence of a culet can interfere with % but won''t change the angle. Table % rounding, combined with crown % rounding can contribute to error too.

There''s no way to know if the % information is far off without angle info.



Are there any questions you would ask if you were purchasing an EGL certified stone?

Should I be worried about the lower depth (as it says on the HCA page), or is 60-ish fine? Should I be worried about a thin girdle (which doesn''t seem to factor into HCA)

I didn''t check out the 1.7 carat diamond, but I might post a link to it later tonight. I pretty much eliminated it when I found two more stones with much better HCA scores, which I''ll also try to post tonight.
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Is it EGL-USA? That EGL lab tends to be more consistent and discriminating than some of the other EGL labs, though (as you''ve likely heard) AGS and GIA are considered stronger labs.

A depth of 60.3 is fine. The info given all looks nice on #2.

For any purchase in the thousands I think it''s reasonable to expect a Sarin scan of the diamond, but that is between you and the seller. If he is in a remote location without access to a Sarin or Ogi machine, or is not inclined to give the report because he feels the price is right without it, you may not be able to convince him to provide it.
 
Is it usually possible to get a Sarin report from the vendors on PS? It seems to me that 95% of the time the vendors are just middlemen and don''t really have the diamond in their hands to do a Sarin report on.

It''s just the EGL. It does seem odd that they''d have the depth to a decimal point and nothing else, but it doesn''t seem to substandard.

By the way, EGL-USA seems like a paradox to me.
 
If you can see a picture of the actaul stone then they have it. WF and GOG both offer Sarin reports on these stones and they can be found on the same page as the stone. Where is stone two from?

I think James Allen may also sometimes have pictures and greater info but I am not 100% sure about that.
 
Date: 10/24/2005 6:24:30 PM
Author: cheetahman
Is it usually possible to get a Sarin report from the vendors on PS? It seems to me that 95% of the time the vendors are just middlemen and don't really have the diamond in their hands to do a Sarin report on.

It's just the EGL. It does seem odd that they'd have the depth to a decimal point and nothing else, but it doesn't seem to substandard.

By the way, EGL-USA seems like a paradox to me.
Click to expand...


I think 95% might be high.
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Matatora is correct. All vendors here all have access to the same virtual list, but some carry a very healthy inventory of on-site diamonds. If you have a little surfing time I suggest you visit the actual sites of some PS vendors and visit the selections.

Different vendors indicate what is actually theirs in different ways. Some offer a Sarin report, magnified photo, reflector image (ideal-scope, light-scope, etc.), online lab grading document - and sometimes more - for every diamond they have in stock.

LOL re: EGL-USA.
 
I don''t want to say where the second one is from. If it is a deal as PhoenixGirl suggests and as I think it is, I''d hate to have someone read about it here and call them up to buy it.

I''d just say it''s from one of: Union Diamond, Good Old Gold, Abazias, WhiteFlash, GOG, DCD. It''s not a higher brand store like a Blue Nile nor is it something that seems questionable like JewelryZone.

I think I had overlooked some of that extra stuff like the few diamonds with Sarin reports, light scope analysis and such. I think I might do that now. I have viewed a lot of vendors online stuff with their search engines.

I going to go out on a limb and say there aren''t any of this size, clarity, color, for $6-$7K range that are definitely AGS0, H&A, or otherwise distinguished in this sort of way. That said, I don''t think I can be sure that I''d be getting any better by paying 33% more. It would disturb me to pay that much extra, just because it hasn''t gone through the additional testing.
 
Here''s the first stone that I mentioned in this thread. Sorry you get no crown and pavilion from here, you''ll have trust that''s what they sent me in the EGL certificate.
 
And the two new stones that I''m considering:

Diamond 3 (of this thread)
---------
1.72 carats
SI clarity, I color
Ideal cut (rated by vendor)
Measurements - 7.77 x 7.66 x 4.75
Depth - 61.6
Width - 54
Crown - 16
Pavilion - 43
Girdle - medium

It''s priced from 8000-8500 and the cut advisor rating is 1.2 (without using the crown and pav angles, just percentages).

Diamond 4
---------
1.74 carats
SI clarity, I color
Ideal cut (rated by vendor)
Measurements - 7.76 x 7.70 x 4.79
Depth - 62.0
Width - 55
Crown - 15
Pavilion - 43
Girdle - thin

It''s priced around 8500 and the cut advisor rating is 0.9 (without using the crown and pav angles, just percentages). I think I would consider this over the one above. The two basic measurements are closer and it''s HCA seems better. I''m still liking the 2nd diamond in this thread, best HCA number and cheapest price, seemingly same size.

None of the 4 diamonds I''ve listed have further info like Sarin reports.

By the way, I couldn''t find a good search on Good Old Gold''s website. Just a H&A one that didn''t have much of a selection at all. I don''t think they had a 1.5+ in I/SI1 for any price.
 
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Where did you look on GOG web page...they have several such diamonds. Rounds at GOG click on the list to the left side of your screen. It will take you to stones with in those sizes, then click on the one that sounds intreasting to you and it will take you to a ton of info about that stone.
 
I didn''t find any at a search at http://www.goodoldgold.com/exelinvens/inventory.asp, but also the page is severly broken in Firefox.

I find that way of searching kind bad. They are mixing $8K and $22K diamonds on the same page. Whose budget is that wide? After looking at those, the only thing kind of close in the price range is SI2 and J at under 1.6 carats. I am only considering below a 1.7 because of the measurements being the same.

It sounds weird, but to some degree, I do want to have a certificate with the better ratings on it. My girlfriend isn''t going to study HCA analysis and Sarin reports. She''s going to look at the certificate (and the diamond of course) and she isn''t going to know AGS from EGL.
 
I am sorry you cannot use their page via firefox. But if you could you can see that they have the organized by size which makes sense. If you go to the search by cut here you can enter your parameters, size, color, clarity...and when the results come up click price twice adn they will ordered from lowest to highest prices. HTH
 
By size does make some sense, but when there are so many factors they should just show a table of all of them like most sites or allow some filtering. There really aren''t too many, so it doesn''t matter much. Still there''s nothing there for me it seems.

I''ve tried the search by cut and discussed in my thread about JewelryZone. It seems that the search by cut only searches a very small subset of the diamonds that the basic search the Price Scope provides. By eliminating such a large percentage of the available diamonds, I reduce my odds of getting a great deal. For instance, I wouldn''t have found the 2nd one listed in this thread, when it seems like it could be every bit as good as the best ones in the cut search. There''s not a lot in there that''s SI1, I, 1.6 carats or better for under $8500.

I think I''m going to go with the 2nd stone in this thread, unless someone can look at the data presented and give an example of what could be that terrible about it. I think PhoenixGirl is dead on here. I still might get an ideal-scope to confirm during my preview/evaluation period.
 
Seems like you''re doing pretty reasonable efforts at due diligence. My guess is that you''re missing some elements, but, once more fully considered, you may be back at where you are. Just wanted to be sure you were also aware of this thread.
 
Thanks for pointing out that thread. I tried to use the main grading study referenced in it, but that's only EGL US, so it's pretty useless to me. It seems to me that most of the people displeased with EGL have about 1000-4000 (or more) posts which make me think that they are kind of fanatical diamonds (nothing wrong with that). In my experience fans are more critical, so I'm starting to wonder if EGL could be great for the average person, but painful for a good number of people here.

I went to a local dealer and I couldn't tell the difference between an AGS0 and an EGL-US they had there. I realize there's a difference between the EGL and EGL-US, but I figured I'd give a shot. I'm definitely missing a few elements, but I really don't have a way to get them for this diamond without getting it and doing it independantly. I figure I can always return it. Worst case, I lose $50 or whatever it costs to insure. I guess If it's that good with the eye and I have it appraised and that comes out bad, I lose the appraiser's fee. Best case I save $2-3K. And I might have the same issue with an AGS0 as well, but the odds are probably significantly less so.

I might mention that I asked that local dealer about the differences in the grading systems and that I heard one was a softer grade than others. I saw that the was certified by GIA, so I expected to hear something about them, but he said they are all equal on average, but if you took one diamond to all three, you wouldn't get the same grades back.
 
In case anyone was interested, I got the 2nd one that I posted here (the 1.63 carat) today. I probably spent a half hour staring at it with just my naked eye. I bought a 5x magnification glass at Walmart, but I won''t get to use it until tonight - probably pretty late.

With the naked eye, I''d say it looked the same as the GIA SI1''s that I saw in retail. It definitely didn''t look as included as the SI2''s. It did appear to have a bit of the yellow, but that was in direct sunlight (I don''t know if that yellows it up any), with a white background, and I really only noticed it when I looked at it from the side. I''m optimistic that when set it will be pretty impressive. I wish I could really grade the cut''s fire and brilliance, but I don''t have anything to it compare it to.

So my next plan is too look at with the magnifying lens tonight and then it''s off to Jeff Averbook for appraisal, when he can fit me in. If all comes back good I may use the money I saved over some of the other stones for a Mark Morell setting (since he''s local and about a 15 minute drive from my girlfriend). We''ll see because I do kind of like some of the cheaper of the shelf settings and feel that she would be just about as excited by those, with the difference going to a new pocketbook or something.

I want to thank everyone for their help in this thread and the other one that I started this past weekend.
 
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