What does "no window" really mean?

[demantoid]

I know what a window is, but I'm curious what you all think "no window" really means. Does it mean you can't see a window when you look at the stone straight on? Or does it mean there is no window even when you tilt or move the stone? Is it even possible to have no window at all, no matter what angle you view a stone from?

 

[chrono]

No window means you cannot see behind the gem when viewed straight down or perpendicular to the table. If tilted, it no longer applies. If tilted, almost all gems will show a tilt window unless they have exceptionally high refractive index and are cut to ideal angles. I think only diamonds and a handful rare others have the potential of not showing a tilt window.

 

[minousbijoux]

I would go one step farther and say that if there is no window, then light bounces back and you can see facet reflection, and color reflected back and flashes and sparks of light...

 

[LD]

Window = is only a window if you can see through it and there are transparent parts that don't reflect the stone's colour back to your eye IF you are looking at it straight on. Many many many stones do not have a window. Small windows can minimise/close up in good settings.

Tilt window = this is NOT necessarily a bad thing. Many paler coloured stones have this. This will appear if you are looking at the stone and it's tilted away from you. You do not judge coloured stones by this. The only time it becomes a "no no" is when it's too large and too obvious. Even very well cut gemstones can have this.

 

[demantoid]

Thank you all for this information. I feel better about some of my stones now, knowing a tilt window isn't bad. But I have to admit, I have some stones that I would not have purchased if I had found this site earlier. I've had many jewelers tell me that windows are "normal" in the colored stone world and not to worry too much about them.

So, do you judge extinction areas from looking straight into the table as well?

 

[LD]

Thank you all for this information. I feel better about some of my stones now, knowing a tilt window isn't bad. But I have to admit, I have some stones that I would not have purchased if I had found this site earlier. I've had many jewelers tell me that windows are "normal" in the colored stone world and not to worry too much about them.

So, do you judge extinction areas from looking straight into the table as well?

No. Extinction typically occurs as you move the gem around or hold it still. It doesn't really matter what angle you're holding it at BUT some angles may make it appear more prevalent.

Have a read of the sticky at the top of this forum that I put together ages ago. It has links to all sorts of articles and is a whistle stop tour for what you can expect in coloured gemstones.

 

[VapidLapid]

If someone feels that saying there is no window is a selling point, I would say that the stone is nothing to look at.

 

[pregcurious]

No window when you look straight on.

If it has a huge tilt window though, I would also not want to buy the stone (within reason--RI and light color taken into account). If tilting the stone 5 degrees makes a huge window appear, I don't like that because it comes down to how to the stone performs. Window = light leakage. It's always good to ask about tilt windows if they bother you.

By the way, I posted a lavender spinel in your other thread for you.

 

[demantoid]

No window when you look straight on.

If it has a huge tilt window though, I would also not want to buy the stone (within reason--RI and light color taken into account). If tilting the stone 5 degrees makes a huge window appear, I don't like that because it comes down to how to the stone performs. Window = light leakage. It's always good to ask about tilt windows if they bother you.

By the way, I posted a lavender spinel in your other thread for you.

Thank you for your response Pregcurious. Windows, Tilt Windows, and Extinction does bother me. It bothers me a lot, but I had learned to accept it to a certain extent since jewelers told me to worry more about color than cut and clarity. So it's new for me to hear that you CAN get stones that have light reflection all over. I'm learning!

 

[chrono]

Most don't need perfect cutting but at the same time, should not accept gaping windows, massive tilt windows and extinction that covers more than 30% of the stone. Some material is common enough that you should not settle for any cut issues at all.

 

[pregcurious]

Most don't need perfect cutting but at the same time, should not accept gaping windows, massive tilt windows and extinction that covers more than 30% of the stone. Some material is common enough that you should not settle for any cut issues at all.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[minousbijoux]

Windows, Tilt Windows, and Extinction does bother me. It bothers me a lot, but I had learned to accept it to a certain extent since jewelers told me to worry more about color than cut and clarity. So it's new for me to hear that you CAN get stones that have light reflection all over. I'm learning!

Many stones are not ideally cut, so there is light leakage - extinction and windowing are pretty common, so its not like what your jeweler said was bad advice. But there are those who really care about cutting as well as color and clarity, which is why there is a strong market for precision cutting and why there is so much discussion of the good lapidaries (found on sticky at top of page). The vast majority of stones are cut to less than ideal standards for many reasons, so those with windows and extinction abound. But in most cases, you can find well cut stones as well. There may be a premium associated with the quality cutting, but most of here are willing to pay it. Sounds like you may be too.

 

[LD]

No window when you look straight on.

If it has a huge tilt window though, I would also not want to buy the stone (within reason--RI and light color taken into account). If tilting the stone 5 degrees makes a huge window appear, I don't like that because it comes down to how to the stone performs. Window = light leakage. It's always good to ask about tilt windows if they bother you.

By the way, I posted a lavender spinel in your other thread for you.

Thank you for your response Pregcurious. Windows, Tilt Windows, and Extinction does bother me. It bothers me a lot, but I had learned to accept it to a certain extent since jewelers told me to worry more about color than cut and clarity. So it's new for me to hear that you CAN get stones that have light reflection all over. I'm learning!

This worries me. Are you sure coloured gemstones are for you? Colour is the number 1 priority for us coloured stoners. Typically the majority of coloured gemstones are NOT well cut and will have "issue(s)". If you don't want tilt windows then you're eliminating about 70% of gems. If you don't want extinction (any at all) then you've eliminated about 90%. If you are looking for a non-windowed, non tilt window and non extinct gemstone then you're going to miss some outstanding gems.

If you are used to diamonds you have to forget everything you look for in those and basically re-learn I'm afraid. As our diamond friends from Rocky Talky will tell you when they try to buy a coloured gemstone, it's not as easy as they thought AND they have to rethink everything.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I have emeralds that have a darker color around the edges of the stone. However when I test the stones on a white background, I cannot read any print under the lighter color. I always thought it was a window, but you can't see through it, but the colorer is lighter than the outer edges. What do we call that?

Annette

 

[chrono]

Annette
Windowing is only right down the middle of the stone, right at the table area. I don't suppose you have any example pictures to show what you mean? It doesn't even have to be a picture of your stone. Could it be that the jardin isn't allowing you to see through the stone?

 

[LD]

My guess is the same as Chrono's that it's a jardin issue OR could it be dyed? Can you post a photo Smit because that may shed some light on it.

 

[demantoid]

LD Said:

<<This worries me. Are you sure coloured gemstones are for you? Colour is the number 1 priority for us coloured stoners. Typically the majority of coloured gemstones are NOT well cut and will have "issue(s)". If you don't want tilt windows then you're eliminating about 70% of gems. If you don't want extinction (any at all) then you've eliminated about 90%. If you are looking for a non-windowed, non tilt window and non extinct gemstone then you're going to miss some outstanding gems.

If you are used to diamonds you have to forget everything you look for in those and basically re-learn I'm afraid. As our diamond friends from Rocky Talky will tell you when they try to buy a coloured gemstone, it's not as easy as they thought AND they have to rethink everything.>>

Oh yes, colored stones are for me! While I'm not always picky about having the "top" color of stone because I like to have many colors, I am picky about how the color shows up and light reflection. If I have a green (or any color) stone it doesn't look green all over if I can see my finger through it or some areas are dark. I want the light reflected back perfectly! WIth that said, if you saw my collection of stones you would see windows and extinction areas in some (maybe all) of my favorite pieces. I realize no stone is perfect and I enjoy wearing all of my jewelry.

So I think color is the number 1 priority for me though maybe in a different way than for others. While I love looking at sapphires in what is considered the top blue colors, I would also love to see (and own) a really good light blue one, a teal one, a pink one, a yellow one, a purple one, etc. But I would prefer that I can actually see the color and light play in any of those colors. Should I rethink?

 

[chrono]

Demantoid,
A well cut stone, not necessarily precision cut, will show colour well throughout the body with good light play. This type of stone certainly exists but you won't find them in regular brick and mortar stores and most eBay stores.

 

[LD]

Top colour in a rubbish cut or a great cut = $ lots!

Any colour in a good cut = $ more than average as you pay for the cut. The better the colour the more you will pay.

Should you rethink? Honestly I can't say that. It depends on your budget. You have very exacting preferences and if you can afford it then there's no need for a rethink BUT your market is exceptionally limited.

Let me put it this way, if you're only looking for well cut gemstones then some of the rarest (and most valuable) stones, will be passed by. For example, unless you have a never ending bank account you won't buy a Paraiba Tourmaline, you'll miss out on an Alexandrite, etc etc. If you lower your expectations you can get some highly desirable gemstones!

Here's an example ......... it's a 4ct Paraiba Tourmaline. It has a large window. If I had passed this by because of the cut, I now wouldn't be able to buy anything like it. In terms of value it's probably worth many more times than I paid for it. Whilst I really do appreciate it's not about value (and I only ever buy if I love something) it's why I'm not in agreement that only well cut stones should be bought. However, that's a completely personal opinion and I respect yours if you have different parameters.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I can't take pictures. I sent one of these to a lab. I bought 8 from the same parcel. I put 5 in a necklace, made a pr of earrings and did a ring. I can see the jardin. The stones are transparent, just lighter in the middle, but I cant read print through them. The ring closed up (mostly) this so called window. The necklace is in prong set settings. I still like these but when I recently brought a white background to the safe deposit box, I was surprised i couldn't read thru it. It sits in a black velvet necklace box that looks beautiful to me, however would not measure up to your high standards. I realize i also see the tilt window on the black.


Thanks, Maybe someday I'll learn how to do pictures. I always felt better when Linda was on here, because she didn't do pictures either.

 

[demantoid]

Demantoid,
A well cut stone, not necessarily precision cut, will show colour well throughout the body with good light play. This type of stone certainly exists but you won't find them in regular brick and mortar stores and most eBay stores.

Then that's all I want. Well cut stones.

After persuing the vendor list on this site, hopefully I have some well cut ones coming.

 

[demantoid]

Perhaps I have come across as insisting on stones that only fit into a slim category. This is not what I meant to say. All I tried to say is that windows really bother me and I wish they weren't there, and I wanted a better understanding of what is and isn't considered a window. Would I pass up a stone with a window? My jewelry box would show you that I wouldn't. But would I look at my stones and wish a window wasn't there? Absolutely!

Here's an example: I like the color of this little teal sapphire. It's not as dark as this photo looks. Does it have a window? Yes. Do I like it and wear it? Yes. Do I see that window every time I look at the stone and wish it wasn't there? Yes. But it's still one of my rings that I wear in regular rotation.

 

[minousbijoux]

Top colour in a rubbish cut or a great cut = $ lots!

Any colour in a good cut = $ more than average as you pay for the cut. The better the colour the more you will pay.

Should you rethink? Honestly I can't say that. It depends on your budget. You have very exacting preferences and if you can afford it then there's no need for a rethink BUT your market is exceptionally limited.

Let me put it this way, if you're only looking for well cut gemstones then some of the rarest (and most valuable) stones, will be passed by. For example, unless you have a never ending bank account you won't buy a Paraiba Tourmaline, you'll miss out on an Alexandrite, etc etc. If you lower your expectations you can get some highly desirable gemstones!

Here's an example ......... it's a 4ct Paraiba Tourmaline. It has a large window. If I had passed this by because of the cut, I now wouldn't be able to buy anything like it. In terms of value it's probably worth many more times than I paid for it. Whilst I really do appreciate it's not about value (and I only ever buy if I love something) it's why I'm not in agreement that only well cut stones should be bought. However, that's a completely personal opinion and I respect yours if you have different parameters.

"Hi, my name is Minousbijoux and I am an anti-windowaholic." LD, I have to stand up and be counted here, because although I know I should love color first, and I do, I really do, I can't get away from windows and extinction like the OP. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but your stone is borderline for me. Don't get me wrong, that has fabulous, to die for, color. It is amazing. But can I get over the window? This one is borderline (okay, if you insist, I'll take it, grumble grumble); if the window was any bigger, I would not be able to handle it despite its roaringly gorgeous color. This because every time I'd look at it, my eyes would see a yawning flaw gaping back at me. If I knew by setting it correctly I could diminish a window considerably, that could mitigate my feelings to some degree, but by and large, you can keep whatever crown jewels and other famous gems have windows because I just can't tolerate them.

There. I said it.

 

[LD]

Minou - you know it's set and the window has minimised! lol This stone is shallow. I wanted to have it recut but would lose at least 50% or more. So a 4ct would go down to a 2ct or less AND the colour would be affected.

Demantoid - honestly I can't see the window in the stone you've posted. I really can't. The photo isn't very clear but can you take one closer? What I see is quite a lot of extinction but definitely no window so now I'm confused!

 

[demantoid]

Top colour in a rubbish cut or a great cut = $ lots!

Any colour in a good cut = $ more than average as you pay for the cut. The better the colour the more you will pay.

Should you rethink? Honestly I can't say that. It depends on your budget. You have very exacting preferences and if you can afford it then there's no need for a rethink BUT your market is exceptionally limited.

Let me put it this way, if you're only looking for well cut gemstones then some of the rarest (and most valuable) stones, will be passed by. For example, unless you have a never ending bank account you won't buy a Paraiba Tourmaline, you'll miss out on an Alexandrite, etc etc. If you lower your expectations you can get some highly desirable gemstones!

Here's an example ......... it's a 4ct Paraiba Tourmaline. It has a large window. If I had passed this by because of the cut, I now wouldn't be able to buy anything like it. In terms of value it's probably worth many more times than I paid for it. Whilst I really do appreciate it's not about value (and I only ever buy if I love something) it's why I'm not in agreement that only well cut stones should be bought. However, that's a completely personal opinion and I respect yours if you have different parameters.

The color of that stone is gorgeous and a paraiba tourmaline has been on my wish list for a very long time. If I had the chance to buy a true paraiba (and could afford it) I may easily accept things I normally wouldn't like in a stone. That could be a once in a lifetime situation. I would love to have your stone and I would wear it, but I would also see that window every time I did. Now if I was going to buy a pink or green tourmaline, I would not accept a window like that.

You are very lucky to have such a desirable and beautiful stone!

 

[LD]

That's my point though. Today's stones could well be tomorrow's rarities! You never know. I bought this for colour only (clearly not the cut ).

 

[minousbijoux]

Your point is well made, LD, because now even I, who abhors windows (who doesn't actually?) am coveting your stone.

slinking away muttering "precious, my precious; must get my precious"...

 

[LD]

Your point is well made, LD, because now even I, who abhors windows (who doesn't actually?) am coveting your stone.

slinking away muttering "precious, my precious; must get my precious"...

Oh Minou I love you to bits! You really make me laugh

 

[demantoid]

Minou - you know it's set and the window has minimised! lol This stone is shallow. I wanted to have it recut but would lose at least 50% or more. So a 4ct would go down to a 2ct or less AND the colour would be affected.

Demantoid - honestly I can't see the window in the stone you've posted. I really can't. The photo isn't very clear but can you take one closer? What I see is quite a lot of extinction but definitely no window so now I'm confused!

I'm using my phone. This one is a closer view but the color of the stone is much lighter and more blue IRL. I can see my finger through the stone. I know more now and wouldn't buy this stone again but I still like it on my hand. One day I may replace it in the setting.

 

[pregcurious]

The close up shows a tilt window.