what would you pick? 1.5ct D SI2 vs. I VS1 - same price

[kennyg]

Hello all -

I love PriceScope. I feel like an empowered, informed consumer. I was curious what the average PSer would choose among the following 2 diamonds:

1. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/D-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1050231.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

2. http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-311794.htm


They share the following characteristics:

- Cost: $10610 for #1 via wire, $10350 for #2 via wire. Assume the $260 dollar difference doesn''t matter.
- Carat: 1.52ct for both
- Cut: #1 has a cut that scores HCA 0.9 ex/ex/ex/vg and is in both the GIA and AGS ideal range. #2 has a cut that scores HCA 1.4 ex/ex/ex/vg and is in both the GIA and AGS ideal range.

Both links above will give you a photo and an idealscope image for each stone.

They differ in the following:
- Color: #1 is D, #2 is I.
- Clarity: #1 is SI2, #2 is VS1. From the photos in the links above you can try to make some assessment about whether each stone is "eye-clean".
- #1 is an H&A, #2 isn''t. For the purposes of this exercise it would be great to assume that the buyer thinks both are cut well enough that the H&A doesn''t matter. However if this really matters to PSers that would be interesting to know.

So bottom line, which would you choose, the D SI2 or the I VS1?

 

[Sparkalicious]

I voted for #2!

Just seems like a better deal. The I will hopefully "face up" white and the VS1 clarity seems far superior to that particular SI2 choice.

Good luck! Let us know which one you decide on!

 

[Circe]

No. 1 seems to be unavailable ... did you pull the trigger?

 

[Kissmark]

I would choose 1 because I am more color sensitive, and it''s got a slightly better HCA score. Maybe you can ask James Allen and see if it''s eye-clean (not sure if James Allen would do this but when I purchased from Whiteflash they did confirm), and even if it is, sometimes they can set it in a way that the prong will block the inclusion so it basically becomes eye clean.

 

[kennyg]

Actually it''s a hypothetical, both stones seemed so close except for the color/clarity tradeoff I thought it would be interesting to see how people vote.

In reality, I am still shopping and that question is my main dilemma, color vs. clarity? I don''t want to sacrifice in cut (HCA score of 1-2, AGS0), I don''t want to sacrifice in carat weight (1.46-1.6), and my cost cannot go above $10,500 ($10,610 is pushing it).

I am Asian and there is a lot of feeling around family and friends (many who have relatives who are jewlers etc.) who advise never going lower than G in color. And no matter what stone I bring up, they *always* say they can get me a better deal (big families are fun that way ) But what isn''t clear is whether their *deals* are of the same cut quality, some of them they show me don''t score well on HCA.

Without sacrificing carat size, I can get an I in that range, however whether it is right or wrong, it matters to me to be able to have friends and family know I gave my fiance a very good diamond. If I had it in me, I''d buy an I color with superior cut and just *tell* them it''s an F, but I can''t let myself do that

So I am just curious where other PSers fall in the color vs. clarity debate. I''ve seen other threads and there is a large variety of responses in either direction, but I hadn''t seen a comparison with all the data and images between two stones that were so close in every other factor until the example above. . .

 

[Deelight]

For me I prefer a colour over F mainly because I am colour sensitive and can see the warmth in a diamond, in saying that though the diamond needs to be eye clean for me I don''t care if it is is an SI clarity though I prefer VS (You can find eye clean SI clarity diamonds you just need to search). Lying about the colour also not a good idea there is nothing wrong with a diamond thats I colour they are still beautiful.

If colour is very important to you as is clarity maybe a slightly smaller diamond but one that is well cut and represents well for carat weight is the way to go not all diamonds face up in diameter equally even in same carat cuts. My recommendation is to contact a couple of vendors and tell them your budget and your parameters and see what they can do for you .

Does your partner have a preference to a colour, clarity and carat?

GL with your search

 

[Jenna51580gr]

If the Diamond #1 is eye clean

and has a lower HCA and is H&A I would buy this one.

 

[Ellen]

Assuming #1 is eyeclean, and the inclusions pose no risks, that would be my choice. (kenny, please don't go by the plots, they can be very scary, and totally NOT representitive of what is going on (visable) in real life)

Also, kissmark, a score of .9 is not "better" than 1.4. Once you get below 2, on numbers alone, anything has potential. And actually, Gary has stated many prefer in the 1-2 range. But again, any stone upon further inspection may be a great candidate. And since I have the floor, there are some great ones that score over 2 as well.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 12/3/2007 8:55:31 AM
Author: Ellen
Assuming #1 is eyeclean, and the inclusions pose no risks, that would be my choice. (kenny, please don''t go by the plots, they can be very scary, and totally NOT representitive of what is going on (visable) in real life)

Also, kissmark, a score of .9 is not ''better'' than 1.4. Once you get below 2, on numbers alone, anything has potential. And actually, Gary has stated many prefer in the 1-2 range. But again, any stone upon further inspection may be a great candidate. And since I have the floor, there are some great ones that score over 2 as well.

Yis.

 

[tberube]

the only question left for me is whether the SI2 is eyeclean enough for you. If so, I'd absolutely go with it, it's a better stone - H&A symmetry is kinda important, isn't it? (not an expert just my experience).

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

D assuming it was was eyeclean. D D D yipee!!

cheers--Sharon

 

[aljdewey]

If all things were equal, I''d usually pick the D, SI2 stone. I''m a huge fan of SI2, and I''d rather pay for better color (which is more likely to be visible) than for better clarity (which is less likely to be visible).

In the case of these two stones, though, I''d want an independent appraiser to evaluate that D, SI2 first because of the feather. Not all feathers are problematic, but that one appears to go right to the edge of the stone, so I''d personally want an assurance from an independent appraiser that it wasn''t an elevated structural risk.

 

[kennyg]

Interesting results so far. I read somewhere on another thread a post from Garry that the market is "smart" and prices reflect demand accordingly. This poll so far has been neck-in-neck, only 50 responses so far but it''s almost always been a 50-50 split. That probably explains why both stones are priced about the same by the market.

To answer your question Deelight - my GF had a setting preference from Natalie K which I purchased. She hasn''t indicated any other preferences. But at first she kept saying she would be nervous about the responsibility of too much $$ on her finger and wanted to go under 1ct. Also she''s a finger size 5. When we tried that setting she loved however, it had a 2ct in it, and it looked good and maybe just a tad big. She didn''t say anything, but I know her enough to know that she liked > 1ct in size

1.5ct seems the perfect size - bigger than she is asking for, and not so big that she would get nervous wearing it out and about.

In terms of clarity, I think after awhile it won''t matter to either her or me, but in the beginning she is just as big a "nerd" as I am and would likely look at it through a loop. And if there were too many imperfections I think it wouldn''t be "mind clean" for her. . .

Also I''m on a bit of a time crunch regarding the proposal - so I want to minimize the risk of return. I am leaning towards a lower color / higher clarity tradeoff for that reason. But it goes against my culture''s view of what a good quality diamond is which makes the choice extremely difficult to make. There is a risk our family/friends circle would ignore the beauty of a stone if all they hear is "I in color" - no matter how logical or illogical that view may be. . .

 

[Skippy123]

Kenny, the first one looks like it has already sold so that my sway you unless you were the one that has it reserved.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/3/2007 11:47:35 AM
Author: kennyg

1.5ct seems the perfect size - bigger than she is asking for, and not so big that she would get nervous wearing it out and about.

Agreed.

 

[rocks&purses]

Would your family and friends actually dare to ask what color it is??? I think you should go for what you think is best for you and your GF. They may actually be very surprised and have a change of heart when they see a very well cut diamond that shows more sparkles than their preferred F or G stones that are poorly cut. Also, how does your GF feel about color?

Best of luck! 1.5 ct is a nice size indeed.

 

[BigDiamonds]

In general, I would choose color over clarity because you can see color, but you can''t see the difference between clarity grades if they are all eye-clean. However, that particular SI2 doesn''t look very clean to me.

I understand the pressure to buy a diamond that "sounds" nice, but a beautiful sparkler will win them over regardless of the stats. Buy what you can afford and like!

 

[sera]

If the D SI2 was eyeclean, I would go with that or it wasn't but the inclusion would be hidden by the setting I would still most likely go with it (unless maybe the I looked white to me in person- but unseen and both verified to be eyeclean, pretty sure I would go with the D).

********************

L's for love.

 

[Sparkalicious]

Kennyg,

I know that this must be kind of confusing and frustrating, however, for whatever it counts, I think you are handling the situation admirably and doing a fantastic job with your selections.

I just thought I would share some more of my personal thoughts. Personally, I find myself to be quite color conscious, therefore, I would usually tend towards the D - E - F color range. Given the particulars or your scenario though, I thought that if an I color "faces" up white if the cut is superior, then that might be better than going with an SI2 that appears to have many inclusions that may "just" be "eye clean". This was not okay with me in my own scenario and, had it been up to my bf, I would have hoped that he make the same choice ... This being said, it is possible that maybe this SI2 is completely different and is completely eye clean.

I was looking at an F stone that was beautiful and, for the most part, it was "eye clean", however, once I knew where the inclusions were and looked closely enough, I could see them and that really bothered me b/c I just knew that I would keep trying to "rub it out" as though it were dirty or something. I opted to go with another stone.

The I VS1 that is your other option looks to be an all round fantastic choice and given that only you and or you and your girlfriend will know the "true" color, if it faces up white, no one will notice and if they ask ... whatever answer they get, correct or not so much correct

, serves them right.

Since you suspect that your family will be in your business - do you feel as though they will look more favourably on an SI2 with inclusions or a cleaner stone with a lesser color?

With regards to mind cleanliness, my money would be on the better clarity - if, of course, there are no other options or you are running out of time.

Again, for whatever it matters to you in your decision-making process, this is one of the only situations where I, personally, would recommend going with the I instead of a higher color.

Do you get a chance to see them? If so, this might help whatever decision you ultimately make, to sit better with you b/c as they say "the proof is in the pudding". If the SI2 is lovely, sparkly & gleaming with no visible inclusions ... It''s your best bet ... If not, defer to your other spectacular choice. No way to really, really go wrong here.

I agree with everyone else as well ... 1.5 is a really nice size. Good luck to you!

 

[milton333]

FWIW, I find inclusions to be more of a flaw/defect/squeamish-point than color. I've heard the color of a lower-grade stone described as looking like champagne, if it helps to frame it in your mind that way

Anyway, particularly with a more antique-looking setting, I find that I'm not bothered by some color, but visible inclusions freak me out. The definition of "eye-clean" is usually something like from 8-12 inches away. Now, that may be as close as the average viewer would ever get, but I tend to scrutinize my diamond (it's valuable, it's sparkly, and it's ALL MINE). I was even worse when first engaged years ago. So, any hint of anything visible to the naked eye from more like 4 inches would bother me. If your gf wants to loupe the stone, she'd certainly notice SI2 inclusions.

I don't know, I guess it is a matter of personal taste. I'd drop clarity to VS2, and definitely do I color. But that's me.


ETA: By the way, I'm married and got my e-ring about 13 years ago. It was from Kay Jewelers, and although the diamond was a branded cut, it came with no cert. I honestly have no idea what color my stone is. It has different personalities, and really does reflect the colors around it, and varies with the lighting conditions. It looks like a chunk of ice to me, but given that we were in college when my now-husband got it for me, I'd guess it's not a D

I think knowing the exact color grade can make you more sensitive to whether it's showing color, and can make you IMAGINE that you're seeing color when a higher color-grade stone might look the same. I'd probably get the best cut stone you can, prioritize clarity over color, and make sure you have a good return policy (with FedEx overnight, you could receive the stone, decide if color bugs you, return it, and get your second choice all in the space of a week).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Okay, a couple more thoughts.

To correct something incorrect above, a .9 HCA score is not superior to a score of 1.4. Some people actually prefer between 1 and 2, so in no way is .9 stone superior to the other stone.

I can so easily see that large feather in the SI2 that I would not consider that stone. It would always bother me. I know some girls here have very nice SI2's, and they can be a great deal when you find them. But that does not look like a great one, to ME.

I think your solution is to look under 1.5, and then you can go to D-G color and VS2 or SI1 clarity. You are right that the family will ask about color, as color and clarity are generally the only specs that people ask about other than weight.

But I need to ask, what size stone will your NatalieK ring take? They come with heads of different sizes, so you must be locked in to certain dimensions. Did they order you one for a 1.5 ct. stone?

Here's one at $11,050 (wire/ps discounts) 1.41, F VS2 (check to be sure it is eyeclean):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1111644.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

 

[Deelight]

Date: 12/3/2007 11:47:35 AM
Author: kennyg

To answer your question Deelight - my GF had a setting preference from Natalie K which I purchased. She hasn''t indicated any other preferences. But at first she kept saying she would be nervous about the responsibility of too much $$ on her finger and wanted to go under 1ct. Also she''s a finger size 5. When we tried that setting she loved however, it had a 2ct in it, and it looked good and maybe just a tad big. She didn''t say anything, but I know her enough to know that she liked > 1ct in size


1.5ct seems the perfect size - bigger than she is asking for, and not so big that she would get nervous wearing it out and about.

Sounds like your on the right track Bigger then expected even if it is a tad bigger is always better

 

[kennyg]

I pulled the trigger just now.

I had a 3rd stone I was considering that I didn''t share at the start of this thread but that was very simliar to the WF option (#2). I attached the cert here.

The reason I purchased this one:
1. Cost is within my budget. (Actually my original budget a month ago was $1000 less. I bet that happens to a lot of people

)
2. 1.5+ carats
3. Cut is excellent as judged by an HCA score of 1.3 ex/ex/ex/vg that is also in the AGS0 ideal and GIA excellent range, plus a score of 1A in all categories of David Atlas'' older grading system.
4. Color I or better
5. Clarity VS1 with only a small cloud documented and no other comments. As long as the stone checks out in person, this makes the purchase extremely "mind clean", and me less worried about a possible return.

The vendor was Blue Nile. They have 2 promotions going on right now -- 5% cash back if you go through the Discover Card website to reach Blue Nile and use your Discover Card to purchase, or 5% cash back from fatwallet.com if you go to Blue Nile through fatwallet. (I checked, I can''t get 10% by using Discover Card at fatwallet

) Also they have an extended return policy for the holidays, up to Jan 14, 2008. That gives me 45 days to return it. Those discounts made the stone a good price with some added security for a return in case things get busy through New Years.

(If other PSers take advantage of that, just FYI they have another offer of 20% cash back if you use PayPal, but that is actually capped at $50 back. And their other lolder offer of 10% cash back does not include loose diamonds. So I recommend the 5% offers for the most bang for your buck.)

I will get the stone appraised and if all goes well, placed in the setting on Friday. Many thanks to all of you for your advice and help, PSers are good people. Also if you have any thoughts/debate on the pluses and minuses of the stone I just purchased, that information will be helpful as well as I have 45 days to evaluate.

Thanks all!

 

[HEPennypacker]

Congrats! Looks like you got a great stone.

I pulled the trigger a couple of weeks ago on a bluenile diamond and received it last week (unfortunately, I only knew about the $150-off coupon, so you beat me in the deals area

). I received it last Thursday and am very satisfied so far. I'm having it independently appraised on Wednesday, though, because the bluenile appraisal came in at $11k more than what I paid. I think I got a good deal...just not that good. The only thing that bothers me about bluenile is its lack of an upgrade policy, but the holiday return policy is comforting, and if the future fiancee approves, I doubt we'd want to get rid of the stone anyway.

Congrats again!

 

[kennyg]

Date: 12/3/2007 8:55:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

But I need to ask, what size stone will your NatalieK ring take? They come with heads of different sizes, so you must be locked in to certain dimensions. Did they order you one for a 1.5 ct. stone?

Here''s one at $11,050 (wire/ps discounts) 1.41, F VS2 (check to be sure it is eyeclean):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1111644.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

diamondseeker2006 - the setting is a platinum 950 with a tapered shank just like a Tiffany setting, with a little filigree work on the side, two 0.2ct round accent stones, and a 6 prong mount. It was originally meant to hold 2cts in the center, and I am able to safely take that down to 1.5+ ct without changing the overall look of the ring for her.

The link you sent is great. I do see a black inclusion on the center table at the 8x magnification even though it is a VS2. I''ve asked JA if that is just a diamond in need of cleaning or if that is in the stone (in case I''m not happy with the I color I just bought).

But I also have a question for you. I read your thread about choosing between a 1.37ct and 1.63ct stone. In my case I can''t tell if the 7.47 x 7.51 diameter of the 1.55ct stone would appear much different from the 7.20 x 7.30 diameter of the 1.41ct stone you sent above?

 

[kennyg]

All -

An update. I got the 1.5ct I VS1 stone as shown above. But it looks yellow to me. Granted it isn''t mounted and it looks white indoors, but anytime there is sunlight outside I see the yellow tint pretty easily. It is a GIA cert and I got it appraised at "the low end of I, almost J" by a well known appraiser, so it is the stone it is supposed to be. I think I am just very color sensitive.

I''ve decided not to go below G in color, and VS2 in clarity, and $10,500 via credit card. How big a stone can I get given those parameters? I am looking to maximize the size as much as possible, preferably a diameter > 7.x.

Also Many heartfelt thanks to all who have been helping, (i.e. sparkalicious, diamondseeker2006, deelight, ellen, aljdewey, etc.), I really appreciate the support, it makes shopping easier and less stressful

 

[HappyFish]

Kenny, sticking with G,VS2 is smart. My only other suggestion is to get the diamond where it has good upgrade policy, like WF or GOG.

Good luck.

 

[Ellen]

Date: 12/8/2007 3:56:08 PM
Author: kennyg
All -

An update. I got the 1.5ct I VS1 stone as shown above. But it looks yellow to me. Granted it isn''t mounted and it looks white indoors, but anytime there is sunlight outside I see the yellow tint pretty easily. It is a GIA cert and I got it appraised at ''the low end of I, almost J'' by a well known appraiser, so it is the stone it is supposed to be. I think I am just very color sensitive.

I''ve decided not to go below G in color, and VS2 in clarity, and $10,500 via credit card. How big a stone can I get given those parameters? I am looking to maximize the size as much as possible, preferably a diameter > 7.x.

Also Many heartfelt thanks to all who have been helping, (i.e. sparkalicious, diamondseeker2006, deelight, ellen, aljdewey, etc.), I really appreciate the support, it makes shopping easier and less stressful

I assume this decision is for protection? Which would certainly be prudent in many cases buying on the internet. However, there are definitely some companies where you will be perfectly safe wiring funds, which can get you a substantial discount. Very much worth it, and no risks.

This company is one of those, as are JA and WF.


http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/2688/

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/3699/

http://goodoldgold.com/diamond/3843/


2% PS wire discount on this one.

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-273585.htm#

5% on this.
http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-560201.htm

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Date: 12/4/2007 6:57:35 AM
Author: kennyg

Date: 12/3/2007 8:55:39 PM
Author: diamondseeker2006

But I need to ask, what size stone will your NatalieK ring take? They come with heads of different sizes, so you must be locked in to certain dimensions. Did they order you one for a 1.5 ct. stone?

Here''s one at $11,050 (wire/ps discounts) 1.41, F VS2 (check to be sure it is eyeclean):

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/F-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1111644.asp?b=16&a=12&c=77&cid=131

diamondseeker2006 - the setting is a platinum 950 with a tapered shank just like a Tiffany setting, with a little filigree work on the side, two 0.2ct round accent stones, and a 6 prong mount. It was originally meant to hold 2cts in the center, and I am able to safely take that down to 1.5+ ct without changing the overall look of the ring for her.

The link you sent is great. I do see a black inclusion on the center table at the 8x magnification even though it is a VS2. I''ve asked JA if that is just a diamond in need of cleaning or if that is in the stone (in case I''m not happy with the I color I just bought).

But I also have a question for you. I read your thread about choosing between a 1.37ct and 1.63ct stone. In my case I can''t tell if the 7.47 x 7.51 diameter of the 1.55ct stone would appear much different from the 7.20 x 7.30 diameter of the 1.41ct stone you sent above?

Sorry I did not see this sooner! The two stones I was comparing were about 7.6mm and 7.25mm. I''ll try to see if I can find a picture or two for you!

 

[marcy]

I voted # 2 just because I think you''d see some of the inclusions naked eye in the first one.