When are stereotypes bad?

[kenny]

If someone says the skin of Caucasians is usually lighter than the skin of Africans and someone will get upset.
If someone says the eyes of Asians are usually different than the eyes of Caucasians and someone will get upset.

Why get upset over real differences?
Why is pointing out actual differences offensive?
(I agree that insulting any group based on physical characteristics is unacceptable and that as human beings we all have inherent equal worth.)

Even non-physical characteristics can be stereotyped.
I think making derogatory or even flattering generalizations about woman drivers is offensive.
But generalizing about teen drivers with no experience or 100 year old drivers is not offensive.
It is informed.
Having zero driving experience and the effects of aging on driving skills are legitimate considerations.
Data support this.

So when does stereotyping slip into the bad category?

How bout this one, "Asian woman are beautiful."?
Is that an insulting stereotype? To Asians? To non-Asians?
Naturally, Asian women will vary in appearance as in all groups.

Can you think of examples of legitimate stereotyping?
Why should this whole subject be awkward or even taboo to talk about?
I predict nobody will respond to this thread even thought it is an important topic.
It just seems to me that we all do legitimate stereotyping and make assumptions but we pretend we don't and only bad people do that.

 

[Steel]

Date: 12/31/2009 2:47:53 PM
Author:kenny
If someone says the skin of Caucasians is usually lighter than the skin of Africans and someone will get upset.
If someone says the eyes of Asians are usually different than the eyes of Caucasians and someone will get upset.

Why get upset over real differences?
Why is pointing out actual differences offensive?
(I agree that insulting any group based on physical characteristics is unacceptable and that as human beings we all have inherent equal worth.)

Even non-physical characteristics can be stereotyped.
I think making derogatory or even flattering generalizations about woman drivers is offensive.
But generalizing about teen drivers with no experience or 100 year old drivers is not offensive.
It is informed.
Having zero driving experience and the effects of aging on driving skills are legitimate considerations.
Data support this.

So when does stereotyping slip into the bad category?

How bout this one, 'Asian woman are beautiful.'?
Is that an insulting stereotype? To Asians? To non-Asians?
Naturally, Asian women will vary in appearance as in all groups.

Can you think of examples of legitimate stereotyping?
Any why should this whole subject be awkward or even taboo to talk about?
I predict nobody will respond to this thread even thought it is an important topic.*
It just seems to me that we all do legitimate stereotyping and make assumptions but we pretend we don't and only bad people do that.

*Got that one wrong

.

The world has gone mad and we are all too worried about not being PC to say or do anything. It is the proverbial pink elephant in the room we dare not mention.

 

[monarch64]

People think I''m smart because I''m brunette. I just go ahead and let them stereotype me.

 

[tlh]

Date: 12/31/2009 3:17:19 PM
Author: monarch64
People think I''m smart because I''m brunette. I just go ahead and let them stereotype me.

they thought I was smart because I had glasses.

 

[Steel]

Date: 12/31/2009 3:20:16 PM
Author: tlh

Date: 12/31/2009 3:17:19 PM
Author: monarch64
People think I''m smart because I''m brunette. I just go ahead and let them stereotype me.

they thought I was smart because I had glasses.

Trump!

I wear glasses and am a natural brunette!

 

[kenny]

Stereotyping is assuming.
We have to assume things to function.

When you walk you assume the ground beneath your next step will support you.
Occasionally it is not true, as the person who walked off a cliff in the dark discovers.

When you breath you assume the air is okay.
Occasionally it is not, as those poor people in Bhopal India discovered during that tragic industrial disaster.

But you would go nuts testing the ground in front of you before every step, or testing the air for your next breath.
You have to assume the cars approaching you will stay in their lane, though sometimes they don't.
We must assume, or stereotype, to function.

 

[monarch64]

Date: 12/31/2009 3:22:41 PM
Author: Steel

Date: 12/31/2009 3:20:16 PM
Author: tlh

Date: 12/31/2009 3:17:19 PM
Author: monarch64
People think I''m smart because I''m brunette. I just go ahead and let them stereotype me.

they thought I was smart because I had glasses.

Trump!

I wear glasses and am a natural brunette!

Snap. I wear contacts. I think I will switch to glasses to further the illusion of my brilliance.

 

[ericad]

Recognizing broad cultural differences is fine. Stereotyping all people of a certain race, ethnicity, sex, age, etc. as being a certain way based SOLELY on the fact that they are of that culture, race, etc. is bigotry and is ignorant.

Using muffintop''s thread as an example, she says her husband behaved insensitively and didn''t listen to her preferences when choosing her wedding ring. She mentions he happens to be Indian and they have had to overcome some cultural differences. Taking that little dollop of information and stating that the reason her husband didn''t get her the ring she wanted is because Indian men don''t respect woman is HATEFUL, IGNORANT and INSULTING. If one were to say that perhaps there are some cultural differences surrounding the tradition of a wedding ring or culturally driven family dynamics which may be contributing to their communication problem, well that would be just fine. Do you see the difference?

Another example. My brother is gay. I have many close friends who are gay. It hurts me when I hear awful stereotypes being applied to all gay people. Engaging in this type of behavior represents hatred and intolerance and is a bigger reflection on the person doing it than on the individual or group they are stereotyping.

 

[monarch64]

Date: 12/31/2009 3:25:00 PM
Author: kenny
Stereotyping is assuming.
We have to assume things to function.

When you walk you assume the ground beneath your next step will support you.
Occasionally it is not true, as the person who walked off a cliff in the dark discovers.

When you breath you assume the air is okay.
Occasionally it is not, as those poor people in Bhopal India discovered during that tragic industrial disaster.

But you would go nuts testing the ground in front of you before every step, or testing the air for your next breath.
You have to assume the cars approaching you will stay in their lane, though sometimes they don''t.
We must assume, or stereotype, to function.

The ground and the air don''t have feelings, though.

 

[klewis]

''I find asian women more beautiful'' is to me better than ''Asian women are more beautiful'' It''s better to describe it as a preference and not a law of nature.

 

[ericad]

Food for thought. Per dictionary.com, here is the definition of the word PREJUDICE:

1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.
2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.
3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

 

[kenny]

Date: 12/31/2009 3:48:37 PM
Author: klewis
''I find asian women more beautiful'' is to me better than ''Asian women are more beautiful'' It''s better to describe it as a preference and not a law of nature.

I''m with you on this one.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[joflier]

Stereotypes are bad - when their wrong. The biggest problem is that a stereotype can be taken so literally, that perhaps in some people, it supercedes making a sound judgement of something that is actually right in front of them.

 

[Mara]

Date: 12/31/2009 4:26:09 PM
Author: joflier
Stereotypes are bad - when their wrong. The biggest problem is that a stereotype can be taken so literally, that perhaps in some people, it supercedes making a sound judgement of something that is actually right in front of them.

Well then, stereotypes are ALWAYS going to be wrong.

The reason is because not every single person included in that stereotype is going to fit that stereotype. There are always going to be outliers.

However for me, it's interesting because think about where do stereotypes come from??? There has to be a 'majority rules' kind of mentality for something to even BECOME a stereotype. aka Mexicans drive slow because they don't have car insurance. How did that come about? Well chances are a fair amt of Mexicans at some point were guilty of driving without car insurance so it became a stereotype. Does that mean ALL don't have car insurance? Of course not.

Personally stereotypes don't bother me much because in the area where I live they are rife because there are SO many cultures here. Pockets of cultures in fact. So we live and work all together and you do see some stereotypes that DO seem 'true'.

In fact around here, it's bantered around as jokes half the time, and people don't seem to get offended. I say all the time that that our kid will probably come out looking just like my husband (very light skinned) and that people will think I am the nanny. I am saying it jokingly but you know what? It has a very high chance of happening.

ETA oh and kenny in your original post... saying something like Caucasians usually have lighter skin than Africans is not a stereotype to me, it's a fact. Stereotype to me is more like my driving/insurance or nanny example.

 

[packrat]

Stereotypes are bad if you...act a certain way b/c of it? I dunno..I will lay odds that everybody on the face of the Earth at some point in time has had a thought or opinion based on ignorance and not facts at least once. Maybe not Mother Teresa tho. I have. JD has.

If it''s something that you allow to color your perception of every member of a certain group based on 1 experience, you need to get a handle on your life and allow a couple more brain cells to rub together once in a while. I''ve had good and bad experiences with different groups. People are different and should be accepted as such.

People also need to have a sense of humor and the ability to *sometimes* brush things off and let it go. It''s not worth it to fight and nitpick over every tiny little minuscule detail down to the facial expressions of someone when they say something.

Plain and simple-prejudice and ignorance comes in every shape and color. You can''t control what everyone says all the time all day long forever, but you can control your reaction to it.

I just wish people could learn to be tolerant of other people, and I''ve never understood why it isn''t so. Do we shoot ourselves in the collective foot by screaming about injustices day in and day out?

If people would just SHUT UP and MYOB and kept their eyes on their own paper like we''re taught in school, maybe things wouldn''t be so bad.

 

[NYCsparkle]

stereotypes are bad when someone gets offended....lol...so i guess everyones offended

 

[elrohwen]

I think I''m ok with discussing stereotypes as long as the people I''m talking to realize that''s what it is and react accordingly. I don''t see any reason to get upset and don''t get offended when people report a stereotype about women (for example) as long as they realize that''s what it is and that it doesn''t apply to everyone. I think it''s only offensive when people are dead set that it''s totally true and applies to all - then it''s not a discussion, it''s narrow minded-ness.

For what it''s worth, I have friends of many nationalities, most first or second generation, and we often make jokes about their races and our own as a group. The younger generation seems far more open with that kind of thing. And I know it''s helped them to laugh about stereotypes when others aren''t being so understanding. A Chinese friend went to Mexico City for work and people constantly assumed things (he asked for the NY Times at the hotel and they gave him a Japanese paper because they thought he would like that better

He has a fully American accent, but clearly the desk clerk assumed that all Asian people are Japanese and speak Japanese.). He could''ve been offended, but he was able to laugh about how ridiculous it was that so many people only saw him as a stereotype of an Asian person.

 

[elrohwen]

Date: 12/31/2009 4:52:15 PM
Author: Mara
I say all the time that that our kid will probably come out looking just like my husband (very light skinned) and that people will think I am the nanny. I am saying it jokingly but you know what? It has a very high chance of happening.

This happens to a friend of mine all the time. She''s black, her husband is white, and their baby is very light skinned. She just rolls her eyes when people call her the nanny. I''m sure she''s annoyed by it, but she''s able to laugh about it too.

 

[kenny]

I think what is important is the intent of the writer.

What I often see is readers reacting as if the writer intended to insult.

 

[Mrs Mitchell]

I think they are bad when they hurt someone. Problem is, you don''t know when or how that''s going to happen. Asian women are beautiful? What about an Asian woman who has a disfigurement that makes her feel unattractive? She''s going to find that stereotype hard to deal with.

My point is, I prefer to take people as I find them, as individuals with their own beauty, talent, skills and attitudes.

I fear that stereotypes make it easier to hate people.

They can lead to assumptions, too. Women with red hair, for example. My ex boss once told me that the gene causing red hair is useless in evolutionary terms but survives mainly because redheads like to have lots of sex. Perhaps I, as a redhead, would like to have sex with him?

Not so much.

 

[ericad]

Context is everything. Using stereotypes in a humorous way among friends or family is one thing, and using stereotypes among strangers and when forming opinions about individuals you don''t personally know is another.

 

[yssie]

Date: 12/31/2009 3:43:26 PM
Author: ericad
Recognizing broad cultural differences is fine. Stereotyping all people of a certain race, ethnicity, sex, age, etc. as being a certain way based SOLELY on the fact that they are of that culture, race, etc. is bigotry and is ignorant.

Using muffintop's thread as an example, she says her husband behaved insensitively and didn't listen to her preferences when choosing her wedding ring. She mentions he happens to be Indian and they have had to overcome some cultural differences. Taking that little dollop of information and stating that the reason her husband didn't get her the ring she wanted is because Indian men don't respect woman is HATEFUL, IGNORANT and INSULTING. If one were to say that perhaps there are some cultural differences surrounding the tradition of a wedding ring or culturally driven family dynamics which may be contributing to their communication problem, well that would be just fine. Do you see the difference?

Another example. My brother is gay. I have many close friends who are gay. It hurts me when I hear awful stereotypes being applied to all gay people. Engaging in this type of behavior represents hatred and intolerance and is a bigger reflection on the person doing it than on the individual or group they are stereotyping.

Exactly this.

It's not a fine line, either.



ETA: I must confess, I found some of the comments on that particular thread truly disgraceful.

 

[somethingshiny]

I am stereotyped daily. I am a "redneck" because I live in a tiny town and my family is farmers. I am "dumb" because I'm blond. I "eat too much" because I'm overweight. I'm "strict" because my child behaves. I'm a "bible thumper" because I believe in God. And I "don't spend money wisely" because I choose to increase my jewelry collection instead of buying a new car. It happens everywhere all of the time. I don't take offense to the things people say about me. I really don't see why anyone would. I do what I think is best and no one can make me feel bad about it.


Obviously it doesn't fly around me to make broad negative comments about anyone's race, religion, etc. But, since it happens, we need to learn to deal with it as a society. It's not going to go away.

eta~ legitimate stereotyping. My dad is the biggest redneck on the planet. No one in our family would be offended if you said so. He wears daisy duke shorts and sleeveless shirts. He drives a truck until the oil needs changed and then junks it. He has had appliances in his yard on more than one occasion. He takes beer in his lunchbox. nuff said.

 

[kenny]

Erica, another good point. (I forgot to quote your last post.)

I've been conversing on Internet fora for about 10 years now and have even met close to 100 people in real life that I first encountered on hobby fora.
These are from fora where the most explosively controversial topics are the norm.
Politically, religiously etc, I am polar opposite of many of those I have met and gotten along swimmingly with - I was even invited to stay overnight in their homes when traveling across the US this and last year.
I love that I have grown to be such close friends with many people across the aisle.

My writing style is like talking.
I like to take it to the next level and get close to people.
So I talk here more as I'd talk to friends than to a potential boss on a job interview.

I know I do not hate groups of people and I feel quite sure that you don't either. (There are plenty of hate fora on the Internet for those folks.)
That frees you and I up to let our hair down - a little.
Perhaps this assumes too much.
I push the envelope sometimes based on that trust that I (and you) do not hold malice in our hearts for any group of people.

BTW someone mentioned a gay brother here.
I'm gay.
I'll assume that person (I honestly do not remember who it was and it does not matter) wasn't implying that for me to "get it" it had to be related to a group I belong to.
200 years ago you didn't have to be black to recognize that slavery was wrong.

 

[Steel]

Date: 12/31/2009 7:19:51 PM
Author: kenny
Erica, another good point. (I forgot to quote your last post.)

I''ve been conversing on Internet fora for about 10 years now and have even met close to 100 people in real life that I first encountered on hobby fora.
Astonishingly these are from fora where controversial topics are the norm and I am polar opposite of many of those I have met and gotten along swimmingly with - I have even stayed in their homes when traveling across the US.

My writing style is like talking.
I like to take it to the next level and get close to people.
So I talk here more as I''d talk to friends than to a potential boss on a job interview.

I know I do not hate groups of people and I feel quite sure that you don''t either. (There are plenty of hate fora on the Internet for those folks.)
That frees you and I up to let our hair down - a little.
Perhaps this assumes too much.
I push the envelope sometimes based on that trust that I (and you) do not hold malice in our hearts for any group of people.

BTW someone mentioned a gay brother here.
I''m gay.
I''ll assume that person (I honest do not remember who it was and it does not matter) wasn''t implying that for me to ''get it'' it had to be related to a group I belong to.
200 years ago you didn''t have to be black to recognize that slavery was wrong.

Of course not.

But I''ll wager by being black it was a damned sight easier to see that slavery was wrong than from any other perspective.

Experience and conditioning all weigh in here.

 

[kenny]

People in groups that are oppressed get it.
We/they see oppression in other groups.

People in non-oppressed groups may think nobody is is really oppressed, and may have less compassion.

That's my stereotype.

 

[somethingshiny]

Kenny~ Respectfully, I disagree. Every group is oppressed by someone. I think the difference lies in how much you let the stereotype get to you. I choose to not be offended by stereotypes. Everyone has the choice.

 

[Steel]

I take your stereotype and raise you this....

A. Is oppression objective or subjective?

B. From who''s perspective; the perceiver of oppression or the confirmed oppressed?

 

[kenny]

No absolute answer, IMHO.

Frequently larger groups oppress smaller groups.
Larger groups get to claim being "normal".

Power in numbers, votes, and all that.

Laws are supposed to make us all equal; but you know how that goes.

 

[Steel]

Date: 12/31/2009 7:45:52 PM
Author: kenny
No absolute answer, IMHO.

Frequently larger groups oppress smaller groups.
Larger groups get to claim being 'normal'.

Power in numbers, votes, and all that.

Laws are supposed to make us all equal; but you know how that goes.

If there is no absolute answer then there can be no definitive qualification or quantification of a group; ergo no sterotypification.

Did you answer your own question?