When do pink sapphires become rubies?

[Bron357]

Its a curious thing. I’m just trying to appreciate at what “point” a reddish pink sapphire becomes a pinkish red ruby?
Is it just a matter of opinion or do you need a definitive GIA report? I’m presuming that there is a financial “advantage” to have a Ruby vs a sapphire so maybe people like a broader interpretation of the colour of ruby.
Here are some pics. I find the small stones start to look like rubies when up against a pink gem, yet then start looking pink when up against a red stone.

 

[leukolenos]

I really hope someone has a good answer! I’ve wondered this myself for ages!

 

[T L]

I think whenever a highly reputable lab considers the corundum color pinkish red and/or states it's a ruby, otherwise it can be subjective. It should also not be dyed or diffused.

 

[Seaglow]

It's pink sapphire when you are the buyer and it's a ruby when you are the seller.

In most of Asia, historically, there is more tolerance on stones leaning to pink and purple to be called a ruby. Each lab has their own limits and color chart so they will have different standards on the limitations ruby color.

 

[Bron357]

Yes, I read up on what the GIA had to say and it seems to depend on who appraises it.
And yes, many Asian countries call any pink colour corundum- ruby.
A ring I inherited is supposed to be a ruby (even a very well respected and knowledgeable jeweller called it a ruby) but it can look purple in some lights.
Apparently, rubies can be purple, pinkish even orangish but the words the GIA uses is “predominate red tone”. Another viewpoint was that they look slightly different hues depending on the light source so that complicates the interpretation. My ring looks very “red” in somelighting but in others it starts to look a bit purple pinky.
But definitely, I think the seller wants to call it “ruby” and the buyer “pink sapphire”.

 

[arkieb1]

It's not just rubies I've had spinels come back from labs that were clearly red to my eyes labelled pink and ones that were clearly hot pink come back as red. I've even had two different well respected labs label the same stone two different colours one pink and one red, so I gave up trying to understand this a long time ago.....

 

[leukolenos]

Yes, I read up on what the GIA had to say and it seems to depend on who appraises it.
And yes, many Asian countries call any pink colour corundum- ruby.
A ring I inherited is supposed to be a ruby (even a very well respected and knowledgeable jeweller called it a ruby) but it can look purple in some lights.
Apparently, rubies can be purple, pinkish even orangish but the words the GIA uses is “predominate red tone”. Another viewpoint was that they look slightly different hues depending on the light source so that complicates the interpretation. My ring looks very “red” in somelighting but in others it starts to look a bit purple pinky.
But definitely, I think the seller wants to call it “ruby” and the buyer “pink sapphire”.

Pretty collection there @Bron357 !

 

[valeria101]

When they cross The Line - www

 

[Deathspi]

It's pink sapphire when you are the buyer and it's a ruby when you are the seller.

Very true! Just like how blue sapphires are always ‘cornflower’ according to some sellers!

 

[T L]

Very true! Just like how blue sapphires are always ‘cornflower’ according to some sellers!

Well I think the term "pigeon blood, "is the dumbest metaphor to describe color than I've ever heard. Truly, how many of us have actually seen a pigeon's blood? At least I know what a cornflower looks like, though they come in so many shades, that's really not an accurate metaophor either. Metaphors are truly stupid ways to define color. I prefer GIA terminology for hue , tone, and saturation, although they could be a speculative as well.

 

[arkieb1]

Well I think the term "pigeon blood, "is the dumbest metaphor to describe color than I've ever heard. Truly, how many of us have actually seen a pigeon's blood? At least I know what a cornflower looks like, though they come in so many shades, that's really not an accurate metaophor either. Metaphors are truly stupid ways to define color. I prefer GIA terminology for hue , tone, and saturation, although they could be a speculative as well.

What annoys the cr@* out of me is even the term "pigeon blood" isn't a standard description - some sellers use it to describe stones that are a really deep red others a brighter more vivid red. Much like the term cornflower in blue sapphires, as the above posters have pointed out it also is well used and abused....

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

I am sure there is an old thread with this very discussion.......

cheers--Sharon

 

[Starfacet]

It's pink sapphire when you are the buyer and it's a ruby when you are the seller.

 

[T L]

Gueblin and SSEF continue to employ metaphors, AGL does not, but uses scientific methods to define hue, saturation and tone. That being said, Gueblin and SSEF have decided to use specific qualities including masterstones to define a pigeon's blood color. I would really like to see the master stones.

http://www.ssef.ch/fileadmin/Documents/PDF/Press_release_Pigeonblood_Royalblue_SSEF_GGL_final.pdf

 

[Burmesedaze]

I've learnt to take a step back and buy what the eye sees that makes the heart sing. Coupled with the right price. Like Seaglow puts it, it's relative depending on who's buying and selling

 

[LittleRed]

It’s very possible I don’t know what I’m talking about...... I’m reading a book to help me learn about cs and came across this info (and it made me think of this thread).

“Ruby crystals occur as hexagonal prisms, tables and rhombohedrons.”
“Sapphire crystals occur as barrel-shaped, double-pointed hexagonal pyramids and tabloid shapes.”

Also, sources of rubies and sources of sapphires come from different locations (for the most part).

So if a corundum is pink/red, wouldn’t one be able to tell if it’s a ruby or sapphire from these criteria? Though, I suppose by the time many people see the gem, it’s far removed from its crystal form and specific location.

Odds are I’m an element student who just wandered into a college class, but I figured it might be worth something.

 

[Seaglow]

It’s very possible I don’t know what I’m talking about...... I’m reading a book to help me learn about cs and came across this info (and it made me think of this thread).

“Ruby crystals occur as hexagonal prisms, tables and rhombohedrons.”
“Sapphire crystals occur as barrel-shaped, double-pointed hexagonal pyramids and tabloid shapes.”

Also, sources of rubies and sources of sapphires come from different locations (for the most part).

So if a corundum is pink/red, wouldn’t one be able to tell if it’s a ruby or sapphire from these criteria? Though, I suppose by the time many people see the gem, it’s far removed from its crystal form and specific location.

Odds are I’m an element student who just wandered into a college class, but I figured it might be worth something.

Great you are doing research!

Rubies and sapphires can occur in both shapes because they are corundum with the same crystal habit. Like this ruby that that's that barrel-shaped, double pointed hex.

http://www.minerals.net/gemstone/ruby_gemstone.aspx?img=/RoughImage/5/25/Ruby.aspx

Also, it would be difficult to know the original crystal shape if the stones are from alluvial deposits....they would have been polished by the water throughout time and will appear pebble-like.

On sources, the long-time producers/mining regions have both rubies and sapphires at the same areas such as Myanmar, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos, and India, to name some.

-----

With regard to metaphors, the metaphors themselves are ancient, before the labs existed....so it is difficult to get rid of them...its down to the grass roots. I would buy the stone for the beauty without the metaphors but if given the option and I'm going to pay big bucks and a premium, I would like the metaphor on the lab report for commercial purposes - easier in case I would want to resell the stone. The truth is, many buy the paper, otherwise, the labs won't do it.

Nice stone + metaphor = higher resale value.

 

[T L]

It’s very possible I don’t know what I’m talking about...... I’m reading a book to help me learn about cs and came across this info (and it made me think of this thread).

“Ruby crystals occur as hexagonal prisms, tables and rhombohedrons.”
“Sapphire crystals occur as barrel-shaped, double-pointed hexagonal pyramids and tabloid shapes.”

Also, sources of rubies and sources of sapphires come from different locations (for the most part).

So if a corundum is pink/red, wouldn’t one be able to tell if it’s a ruby or sapphire from these criteria? Though, I suppose by the time many people see the gem, it’s far removed from its crystal form and specific location.

Odds are I’m an element student who just wandered into a college class, but I figured it might be worth something.

I also think a ruby should fluoresce, which shows the presence of chromium. Iron tends to make them browner and not show fluorescence. When you're in sunlight, you'll be happy they fluoresce.

Thanks for the info!!

 

[kenny]

I've learnt to take a step back and buy what the eye sees that makes the heart sing. Coupled with the right price. ...

Without a report from a legit lab you cannot know the "right price".

With so much money at stake (when it comes to Ruby and Pad) I'd buy based on what AGL calls the color.
Depending on "heart singing" can make tons of money go poof.
What if a jeweler calls it ruby, my heart goes pitter patter and I pay $10,000, then later I get it graded by AGL and found out I overspent because I listened to my heart?

The only thing that overspending would make my heart sing is the blues.

IOW, to answer the question, "When do pink sapphires become rubies?"
... When AGL calls it a ruby.

 

[Seaglow]

Without a report from a legit lab you cannot know the "right price".

With so much money at stake (when it comes to Ruby and Pad) I'd buy based on what AGL calls the color.
Depending on "heart singing" can make tons of money go poof.
What if a jeweler calls it ruby, my heart goes pitter patter and I pay $10,000, then later I get it graded by AGL and found out I overspent because I listened to my heart?

The only thing that overspending would make my heart sing is the blues.

IOW, to answer the question, "When do pink sapphires become rubies?"
... When AGL calls it a ruby.

In Myanmar, it's AGGL instead of AGL. Lol. Funny but true.

I've had a discussion with @Burmesedaze on how some local labs might have a better experience in inclusions of local stones because of the bulk of material they grade.

It's a different ball game at ground level. The norm in Myanmar is unheated stones. Many dealers there are first hand dealers. There's a price difference between first hand to second till fifth hand. Touch a stone with heat and it's a different matter.

Some gemological knowledge saves you a lot of $$$. You cannot fake unalter silk or fingerprints.... Or a whole unburst crystal... or an intact 2-3 phase inclusion...at least not yet.

If you know a reputable dealer in Myanmar, it is easy to make returns. A $10000 stone in the US might be $3000 in Myanmar or below. The dealers assume the risks and gets that AGL or GIA or Gubelin or GRS report...then the stone becomes $10000.

I've bought stones in Myanmar without any lab report, placed them with GIA and AIGS and they turned out unheated.

An if you pay a fraction of the price, who cares if they are unheated pink sapphires?

 

[kenny]

In Myanmar, it's AGGL instead of AGL. Lol. Funny but true.

I've had a discussion with @Burmesedaze on how some local labs might have a better experience in inclusions of local stones because of the bulk of material they grade.

It's a different ball game at ground level. The norm in Myanmar is unheated stones. Many dealers there are first hand dealers. There's a price difference between first hand to second till fifth hand. Touch a stone with heat and it's a different matter.

Some gemological knowledge saves you a lot of $$$. You cannot fake unalter silk or fingerprints.... Or a whole unburst crystal... or an intact 2-3 phase inclusion...at least not yet.

If you know a reputable dealer in Myanmar, it is easy to make returns. A $10000 stone in the US might be $3000 in Myanmar or below. The dealers assume the risks and gets that AGL or GIA or Gubelin or GRS report...then the stone becomes $10000.

I've bought stones in Myanmar without any lab report, placed them with GIA and AIGS and they turned out unheated.

An if you pay a fraction of the price, who cares if they are unheated pink sapphires?

If all that's true I'd still rather pay $10,000 for a stone with the AGL report that I'm assured really IS worth $10,000 in the US than gamble buying a stone for $3,000 in Myanmar that may be worth less, or worthless, since it does not come with the consumer protection offered by a report from a reputable lab.

If a person likes gambling and has that kind of money to lose, go for it.
I'm not a gambler with thousands, or even one dollar on the lottery.
YMMV.

 

[Bron357]

Yes, this is why I’m trying to wait patiently for the delivery of my Gem microscope. I’m keen to check this “effect” out in more detail. I think it’s a silk cloud. When you rotate the stone this section suddenly “lights up” in natural light.
And Kenny, I apologize in advance, this is just my iPhone. Maybe I’ll have to buy myself a “proper” camera next and learn how to use it.

 

[Seaglow]

If all that's true I'd still rather pay $10,000 for a stone with the AGL report that I'm assured really IS worth $10,000 in the US than gamble buying a stone for $3,000 in Myanmar that may be worthless since it does not come with the consumer protection offered by a report from a reputable lab.

If a person likes gambling and has that kind of money to lose, go for it.
I'm not a gambler with thousands, or even one dollar on the lottery.
YMMV.

The price for colored stones is unregulated. Sellers will sell as they wish. Labs don't guarantee value. A stone with an AGL report doesn't assure you it is $10,000. AGL, through scientific methodology, opines that what you are getting is what it is....a heated stone, an unheated stone, a fracture-filled stone..,, (Yes, all lab reports have this little disclaimer that it does not guarantee their findings... All are opinions and when a new treatment goes out, even reputable labs may make a mistake). I can place a $100 dollar stone at AGL, get a report, and sell it for $10000. If someone buys it, it is worth $10000. If you buy a stone for $10000 and can resell it at $10000, you have done a good job. But this is unlikely to happen if you have bought with retail prices or from 3rd to 5th hand dealers.

But you are right. Without or very little experience and gemological knowledge, a lab report from a reputable lab is always advisable.

It is more of a privilege to live at a gem manufacturing country, see and compare thousands of stones in person, with options to go to a mining site and get your own stones, or have access to rough and have them cut yourself - only a few are able to access and do this.

There is a price for risk.

Yet, with years or experience and sufficient gemological knowledge, the risk can be smaller. And many dealers take this so you pay not only for the risk but for their experience and knowledge. And they too, may have invested in studies and equipment - easily worth thousands of dollars.

Also, if you stay only in the US, AGL is the way to go and is the preferred lab. But this may not be the case outside of the US, other reputable labs may carry more value is some places and are more recognizable by buyers and end-users when reselling stones.

 

[kenny]

Bron, that's a nice pic.

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

@Seaglow and @Burmesedaze I wish I could meet you ladies one day and get you to help me buy like 3 well priced green stones (an emerald, a jade and something to be determined as long as it's greeeeeen!). Oh that would be the dream!

 

[kenny]

The price for colored stones is unregulated. Sellers will sell as they wish. Labs don't guarantee value. A stone with an AGL report doesn't assure you it is $10,000. AGL, through scientific methodology, opines that what you are getting is what it is....a heated stone, an unheated stone, a fracture-filled stone..,, (Yes, all lab reports have this little disclaimer that it does not guarantee their findings... All are opinions and when a new treatment goes out, even reputable labs may make a mistake). I can place a $100 dollar stone at AGL, get a report, and sell it for $10000. If someone buys it, it is worth $10000. If you buy a stone for $10000 and can resell it at $10000, you have done a good job. But this is unlikely to happen if you have bought with retail prices or from 3rd to 5th hand dealers.

Yes, of course, I know all that, and it doesn't change my main point.
I'd never buy a gem, especially any expensive one, without a reputable lab report, regardless of what country I'm in.
I'm not a gambler.

Reputable labs are the experts on analyzing gems.
I have no intention of spending years and tons of money and work educating myself to a point where I feel I don't need a lab.

Yes, obviously, the more you know, the more you know, and knowing more is better than knowing less.

But no matter how much I learn, I'd never buy a $$$$$$ stone without a legit report.
Again, I must post ... YMMV.
If you feel confident buying stones without reports, go for it.
But keep in mind zillions of people read Pricescope and 91.247% know less than a reputable gem lab.
That should influence the advice we give here.

 

[Bron357]

@Seaglow and @Burmesedaze I wish I could meet you ladies one day and get you to help me buy like 3 well priced green stones (an emerald, a jade and something to be determined as long as it's greeeeeen!). Oh that would be the dream!

I love greeeeeen too. I know a bit about emeralds but nothing about jade I’m afraid. Here are my little greenies and I forgot to post up a pic of my emerald bead necklace. Mine is long, and the beads all facetted, the clasp as little rose/ native cut diamonds. It’s supposed to be “old” but who knows. It was an eBay buy from 12 years ago. I bought it from a U.K. seller whose grandparents had lived in India (when the Brits were there).

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

OMG That necklace is fabulous Bron!!!!!!! You have an awesome collection of green stones too but my golly gosh that necklace

 

[Bron357]

OMG That necklace is fabulous Bron!!!!!!! You have an awesome collection of green stones too but my golly gosh that necklace

Thank you. It’s a bit pale in colour but very pretty. So much work to micro facet all those beads. It looks fab over black, I’m a bit too pale (skin tone wise) to really show it off.