who has the right to decide what happens in our communities?

[movie zombie]

this is an interesting article that i first read in the july/august 2005 issue of ''dollars & sense''. boiled down to its basics its about corporate development v. community rights....and in this case, we''re talking about a conservative republican community.

http://www.foodfirst.org/pubs/backgrdrs/2005/w05v11n1.html

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

MZ,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. Today in America we are at a point where it is accepted dogma that the private sector can do everything better. And yet, as the example you cited pointed out, such an attitude can result in a new form of serfdom, where ordinary citizens are powerless in the face of huge corporate masters.

As the recent film The Corporation pointed out, the corporation has the rights of an individual, but none of the responsiblities. By law, the corporation is required to maximize shareholder profit. But no individuals are held accountable for abuses of power. When the corporation pollutes the land, the public cleans it up, a concept called "externalization," where what should be costs to the corporation are shifted to others.

In Iraq, we now have private companies (mercenaries) taking over tasks that should be performed by the US military. Privatization is really just a shroud for throwing money to the companies that will throw a piece back to those politicians to keep them in power.

Look at the evidence:

Cheney = Halliburton
Dubya = Big Oil, Carlyle Group
Condi = Conaco
Rumsfeld = Bechtel, Lockheed

I know I''ll get hammered for "straying off topic." Such a simplistic idea. The idea that this stuff is not interconnected. If only the world was really that childish, that facile.

 

[movie zombie]

richard, you may in fact be the only viewer that actually took the time to read the article.

quite interesting that the politicians in pennsylvania are marching lock step with the corporations AGAINST the will of their conservative republican constituents. this is not democrat v. republican, conservative v. liberal, etc. but communities being thrown over for corporate interests [which as you pointed out wants the rights of the individual but none of the responsibilities].....communities coming together and sticking together to define what they want and fighting to get/keep it.

it is so easy to dismiss such articles as being from the ''liberal'' press or reflecting a liberal bias. but when the communities and state in question are conservative and republican, many people find it harder to dismiss.

your comments are always welcome and appreciated. i believe the people of pennsylvania have figured out that their best interests are not compatible with the interests of corporate shareholders.

peace, movie zombie

 

[strmrdr]

I read the article but rather than argue with Richards one sided slam I just didn''t post anything.

If anyone thinks its just the republicans that are owned by big business they are very very badly mistaken.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 8/14/2005 5:48:30 PM
Author: movie zombie
richard, you may in fact be the only viewer that actually took the time to read the article.

Unlike Richard and Storm, I have not yet read it, but I will! My life is in total chaos and I am currently "on vacation" mentally! I am always glad to read what you post!

Deb

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/14/2005 5:55:19 PM
Author: strmrdr
I read the article but rather than argue with Richards one sided slam I just didn''t post anything.

If anyone thinks its just the republicans that are owned by big business they are very very badly mistaken.

the point of the article is do we have a say in our communities? or does a corporation thousands of miles away have the say? again, this is not a dem v. rep issue. this is an issue re democracy: what is it, how do we use it, how do we keep it?

corporate interests are beyond dem v. rep, liberal v. conservative: in this richard is entirely correct. and you are correct in pointing out that "If anyone thinks its just the republicans that are owned by big business they are very very badly mistaken". actually, i think you could both agree to that.

i''d be interested in your thoughts re the article.

peace, movie zombie

 

[strmrdr]

It happened here locally in IL the locals fought it and won.
Illinois has its own state version of the federal EPA and they refused to issue the permits.
That was under a republican governor btw.

Within reason the locals should have the final word but its a touchy issue CA power issues are due to the not in my back yard syndrome.
When Nevada said no more power plants for ca in our state build them in your own that was the start of the power mess.
They want the power but not the plants.
Gas refineries run into the same issue.
People want the cheap gas but not the refineries to produce it.

So the issue isn''t as cut and dried as it first looks.
What needs to be done in this case is the producers need to work out how to achieve the goal without all he downsides.
No on wants to pay for research and development these days its all about making a buck today and who cares about 5 years from now.
So the fight goes on the politicians get bought and the people get screwed just like it has always been.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 8/14/2005 6:49:42 PM
Author: strmrdr
It happened here locally in IL the locals fought it and won.
Illinois has its own state version of the federal EPA and they refused to issue the permits.
That was under a republican governor btw.

Within reason the locals should have the final word but its a touchy issue CA power issues are due to the not in my back yard syndrome.
When Nevada said no more power plants for ca in our state build them in your own that was the start of the power mess.
They want the power but not the plants.
Gas refineries run into the same issue.
People want the cheap gas but not the refineries to produce it.

So the issue isn''t as cut and dried as it first looks.
What needs to be done in this case is the producers need to work out how to achieve the goal without all he downsides.
No on wants to pay for research and development these days its all about making a buck today and who cares about 5 years from now.
So the fight goes on the politicians get bought and the people get screwed just like it has always been.

no arguement from me.

communities have the right to decide ''not in my neighborhood''. i agree that corporations do not want to spend money on r&d...they also want to pollute and leave we the taxpayers with the costs of clean up. its part of that not caring about 5 years from now.

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

Date: 8/14/2005 6:49:42 PM
Author: strmrdr

Within reason the locals should have the final word but its a touchy issue CA power issues are due to the not in my back yard syndrome.

When Nevada said no more power plants for ca in our state build them in your own that was the start of the power mess.

They want the power but not the plants.

Gas refineries run into the same issue.

People want the cheap gas but not the refineries to produce it.

Let me respectfully disagree. I live in one of the most conservative districts of one of the most conservative counties in the US. Two miles from my back yard is a Marine Corps base. And yet even in this place, citizens realized they were being scammed when power prices suddenly jumped up so many times. One restaurant in my town posted signs that said: "Welcome, except those from SDG&E," the local power company. Yes, we may be sheep, but even sheep realize when they are being led to the slaughter.

This had nothing to do with "not in my backyard" and everything to do with a few energy companies getting together to scam the public and an adminstration that was a willing partner. Do you really believe that a failure by CA to build power plants could lead to a sudden spike in energy prices where they went up by an incredible amount? I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny when I was a child. Are you still a believer?

Have you not read the transcripts on this? These are tapes, where energy traders brag about bringing markets to their knees as they play their energy games by taking plants offline to drive up the price. Here''s a sample:

Enron''s early gaming transcripts reveal manipulation started in 1998

Strmrdr, please take a look at this film on Enron and then get back to me:

Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room

Sorry. I''ve really got to calm down. Sorry. I will calm down. Breathe deeply...

Ah, now I am back to my regular commie-leftie-completely-irrational state. Ohmmmm...

 

[strmrdr]

Really then why does even a group im sure you love admit that demand exceeds supply during the peak periods in California.


http://www.sierraclub.org/ca/energy/opportunity.asp

CA buys power from as far away as Canada and wont let any power plants be built in the state.
The electric companies built them in Nevada until Nevada said no more.

oh and btw Nevada said no so where to go next hmmmmm lets polute TIJUANA yea!
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/power/20021129-9999_1n29oppose.html

 

[strmrdr]

And for the record I agree that crooked greedy companies and stupid goverment actions were and are part of the problem but to say that the not in my backyard syndrone isnt part of the mess is well not currect.

 

[rubydick]

Date: 8/17/2005 12:21:04 AM
Author: strmrdr
Really then why does even a group im sure you love admit that demand exceeds supply during the peak periods in California.

http://www.sierraclub.org/ca/energy/opportunity.asp

CA buys power from as far away as Canada and wont let any power plants be built in the state.

The electric companies built them in Nevada until Nevada said no more.

oh and btw Nevada said no so where to go next hmmmmm lets polute TIJUANA yea!

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/reports/power/20021129-9999_1n29oppose.html

Jesus, did you read anything I said? Tell me, did you read any of it?

 

[movie zombie]

lots of documentation that Enron''s manipulation caused the blackouts....Enron docs also say they spotted the weaknesses in the deregulation of the industry and started to use those weaknesses to their advantage immediately.....let''s not forget also that ''the industry'' helped write the deregulation laws. perhaps the ''weaknesses'' were deliberate. also, Enron docs show the same manipulation in other areas/countries besides california. this is not hearsay: it is in the company documents.

peace, movie zombie

 

[rubydick]

Sorry for the double post, but really, do you believe that a failure by CA to build energy plants will result in an overnight increase in energy rates that go up multiple times? Do you really believe that? Please, tell me what would account for that increase? Supply and demand (the capitalist explanation) certainly does not swing in such mammouth ways.

So please explain. And please explain away the transcripts I previously quoted. Please explain what those people were talking about.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/17/2005 12:52:31 AM
Author: Richard Hughes
Sorry for the double post, but really, do you believe that a failure by CA to build energy plants will result in an overnight increase in energy rates that go up multiple times? Do you really believe that? Please, tell me what would account for that increase? Supply and demand (the capitalist explanation) certainly does not swing in such mammouth ways.


So please explain. And please explain away the transcripts I previously quoted. Please explain what those people were talking about.

see above post.
Its a part of it as is the lack of new plants also.
It isnt an either or situation its both.

 

[rodentman]

« By law, the corporation is required to maximize shareholder profit. But no individuals are held accountable for abuses of power.»

On the financial side, Sarbanes Oxley is undressing this, at great expense and effort to the business community, which means everyone.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 8/17/2005 5:01:24 PM
Author: rodentman
On the financial side, Sarbanes Oxley is undressing this, at great expense and effort to the business community, which means everyone.

When I used to look at job descriptions in an attempt to find positions for which my husband was eligible, I often came upon a reference to Sarbanes-Oxley. Usually one had to have experience with it or knowledge of it. I never had a clue what Sarbanes-Oxley was except that my husband didn't have any experience with it. Basel II, yes. Sarbanes-Oxley, no. What the heck is Sarbanes-Oxley?

Deborah

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 8/21/2005 1:18:39 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 8/17/2005 5:01:24 PM

Author: rodentman

On the financial side, Sarbanes Oxley is undressing this, at great expense and effort to the business community, which means everyone.

When I used to look at job descriptions in an attempt to find positions for which my husband was eligible, I often came upon a reference to Sarbanes-Oxley. Usually one had to have experience with it or knowledge of it. I never had a clue what Sarbanes-Oxley was except that my husband didn''t have any experience with it. Basel II, yes. Sarbanes-Oxley, no. What the heck is Sarbanes-Oxley?


Deborah

http://www.aicpa.org/info/sarbanes_oxley_summary.htm
Basically a lame attempt by congress where they can let themselves and their buddies get by with anything while appearing to do something and can scapegoat someone as needed while sucking the common man dry of hard earned cash.

In other words a law writen by lawyers for lawyers.

 

[Gemklctr]

Date: 8/21/2005 5:57:53 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 8/21/2005 1:18:39 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 8/17/2005 5:01:24 PM

Author: rodentman

On the financial side, Sarbanes Oxley is undressing this, at great expense and effort to the business community, which means everyone.

When I used to look at job descriptions in an attempt to find positions for which my husband was eligible, I often came upon a reference to Sarbanes-Oxley. Usually one had to have experience with it or knowledge of it. I never had a clue what Sarbanes-Oxley was except that my husband didn''t have any experience with it. Basel II, yes. Sarbanes-Oxley, no. What the heck is Sarbanes-Oxley?


Deborah

http://www.aicpa.org/info/sarbanes_oxley_summary.htm
Basically a lame attempt by congress where they can let themselves and their buddies get by with anything while appearing to do something and can scapegoat someone as needed while sucking the common man dry of hard earned cash.

In other words a law writen by lawyers for lawyers.

One can debate whether it is or will be effective, but the principal goal of S/O was to make top executives more responsible for the financial reporting by their companies by requiring them to certify their reported financials to avoid the proof problems the prosecutors are encountering in Enron, WorldCom, etc., and ultimately to discourage such accounting fraud. It permeates all levels of a corporation''s business, contracting, etc. It''s expensive for companies and the jury is still out on whether it will work, but the intent was laudable.