why does diamond color start with D why not A ?..

[Dancing Fire]

would you be interested in a A IF stone ?

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/22/2005 5

0:18 PM
Author:Dancing Fire
would you be interested in a A IF stone ?

Actually, people were. There were even AA stones. Before the GIA D-Z color grading scale there were a variety of other symbols used... A, B, C, 0, 1, 2, 3, I, II, III, etc. AA was used to one-up the others. Adjectives were even used... "Blue-White," etc. There were no clear definitions.

When GIA created their color scale they did not want their symbols to have any association with prior systems. Thanks to the reputability and global understanding of GIA's system others have since been modeled thusly.

AGS also includes number grades on their DQDs, and you may be aware that AGS has a number for color and clarity (as well as cut). An AGS 000 actually infers a diamond with Ideal Cut (0) and D Color (0) which is flawless (0).

Edited to add: Since the initial posting, AGS has re-defined a triple zero as any diamond with Ideal (0) cut. More info in this thread.

 

[sahmama]

yeah, but why did GIA decide to start with D as opposed to A? just seems weird to go from D-Z instead of A-Z...

 

[codex57]

Date: 1/22/2005 6:50

5 PM
Author: sahmama
yeah, but why did GIA decide to start with D as opposed to A? just seems weird to go from D-Z instead of A-Z...

From John''s explanation, you know others already used A. There was even an AA used. That caused confusion as to where to start. When GIA made their system, they wanted to be totally different from the other ones.

My personal uninformed guess is that they picked D at random b/c C is too recognized as being the 3rd level down from A (ABC) so D is very different and doesn''t have the preexisting association to a pattern that C does.

 

[perry]

GIA did not want any confusion. By using letters never before used, there would be no confusion with the previous system.

A modern example of such confusion is the term "Ideal Cut" Everyone and their sister has a different deffinition of Ideal Cut (it is amazing just how many diamonds are sold as "Ideal Cut"). Thus, if I were to start a new cut grading system, I would avoid the term "Ideal."

Here''s my idea of a cut standard system:

Amazing (almost perfect - within a few tenths of perfect,
Less than 1/10 of 1% of diamonds.)
Great
Good
Fair
Poor
Awful

Perry

 

[websailor]

Perhaps the "D" was picked because they were grading D iamonds?

 

[belle]

Date: 1/22/2005 7

4:36 PM
Author: websailor
Perhaps the ''D'' was picked because they were grading D iamonds?

too funny websailor....

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/22/2005 7

1:24 PM
Author: perry
GIA did not want any confusion. By using letters never before used, there would be no confusion with the previous system.

A modern example of such confusion is the term ''Ideal Cut'' Everyone and their sister has a different deffinition of Ideal Cut (it is amazing just how many diamonds are sold as ''Ideal Cut''). Thus, if I were to start a new cut grading system, I would avoid the term ''Ideal.''

Here''s my idea of a cut standard system:

Amazing (almost perfect - within a few tenths of perfect,
Less than 1/10 of 1% of diamonds.)
Great
Good
Fair
Poor
Awful

Perry

Love it.

How about one more at the bottom...

Ratt-tastic.

 

[dobie]

Date: 1/22/2005 5:29:46 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

AGS also includes number grades on their DQDs, and you may be aware that AGS has a number for color and clarity (as well as cut). An AGS 000 actually infers a diamond with Ideal Cut (0) and D Color (0) which is flawless (0).

I believe AGS Ideal 0/Ideal Cut/AGS000/Triple Zero means the highest rating in polish, symmetry and proportions. It has nothing to do with colour and/or clarity.

 

[Brian Knox]

Sorry, Dobie.

John is right on.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/22/2005 5:29:46 PM
Author: JohnQuixote

Date: 1/22/2005 5

0:18 PM
Author:Dancing Fire
would you be interested in a A IF stone ?

Actually, people were. There were even AA stones. Before the GIA D-Z color grading scale there were a variety of other symbols used... A, B, C, 0, 1, 2, 3, I, II, III, etc. AA was used to one-up the others. Adjectives were even used... ''Blue-White,'' etc. There were no clear definitions.

When GIA created their color scale they did not want their symbols to have any association with prior systems. Thanks to the reputability and global understanding of GIA''s system others have since been modeled thusly.

AGS also includes number grades on their DQDs, and you may be aware that AGS has a number for color and clarity (as well as cut). An AGS 000 actually infers a diamond with Ideal Cut (0) and D Color (0) which is flawless (0).

agree with john...
An AGS 000 actually infers a diamond with Ideal Cut (0) and D Color (0) which is flawless (0).
the triple ideal cut should only refer to the 0 cut.

 

[dobie]

This is what AGS has to say about AGS 000:

What is an AGS ''000'' or a Triple Zero?
Historically, a ''000'' or a Triple Zero, in the AGS Grading System, refers to an Ideal Cut -- D Color (0 Color Grade), Flawless Clarity Grade (0 Clarity Grade) and a 0 Cut Grade. Astute observers noticed that an AGS Ideal 0 cut diamond had 0 polish, 0 symmetry, and 0 porportions. Thus, AGS Ideal 0 cut diamonds are also referred to as ''Triple Zeros.''


I see lots of websites saying their diamonds are Ideal Cut or Triple Zeros with all grades of colors and clarities.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/22/2005 11:54:20 PM
Author: dobie

I see lots of websites saying their diamonds are Ideal Cut or Triple Zeros with all grades of colors and clarities.

Dobie - you're right. It is commonly misconstrued. The appropriate term for ideal in cut, sym and polish is "Triple ideal." As VKT mentioned, you can have a G SI stone which is "Triple Ideal" in cut...But the original AGS 000 is D FL.

 

[dobie]

Date: 1/23/2005 12:34

8 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Dobie - you're right. It is commonly misconstrued. The appropriate term for ideal in cut, sym and polish is 'Triple ideal.' As VKT mentioned, you can have a G SI stone which is 'Triple Ideal' in cut...But the original AGS 000 is D FL.

I see that you used the word 'cut' for proportion. So is 'Ideal Cut' just ideal in proportion only or ideal in proportion, symmetry AND polish?

ETA: What is confusing is that in the quote I got from AGS they used 'Ideal Cut' to include cut, color and clarity.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/23/2005 12:57:52 AM
Author: dobie

I see that you used the word 'cut' for proportion. So is 'Ideal Cut' just ideal in proportion only or ideal in proportion, symmetry AND polish?

ETA: What is confusing is that in the quote I got from AGS they used 'Ideal Cut' to include cut, color and clarity.

Hi Dobie.

Yes, I used "cut" as shorthand for "cut proportions." When saying ideal cut the proportions are implied. More variety ensues when people talk in terms of GIA (or other) diamonds which meet AGS ideal "cut proportions..." The highest grade GIA gives in sym/polish is Ex/Ex, but if it meets AGS ideal cut (insert the word proportions), along with Ex/Ex from the lab that graded it in sym/polish it is also sometimes referred to as Ideal. Soon GIA will introduce their new grading system and I'm sure we'll have additional mixing of terms

I'm attaching an AGS Diamond Quality Document to illustrate. The Cut Grade is 0 (you can see the "Triple Ideal"), the Color Grade is 0 (D) and the Clarity Grade is 4 (VS2). Hope this is helpful.

Can you link the AGS statement you found?

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/23/2005 12:57:52 AM
Author: dobie

Date: 1/23/2005 12:34

8 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Dobie - you''re right.  It is commonly misconstrued.  The appropriate term for ideal in cut, sym and polish is ''Triple ideal.''  As VKT mentioned, you can have a G SI stone which is ''Triple Ideal'' in cut...But the original AGS 000 is D FL.

I see that you used the word ''cut'' for proportion. So is ''Ideal Cut'' just ideal in proportion only or ideal in proportion, symmetry AND polish?

ETA: What is confusing is that in the quote I got from AGS they used ''Ideal Cut'' to include cut, color and clarity.

Dobie
you could have a stone that is" ideal cut" without ideal symmetry or polish.

 

[dobie]

Date: 1/23/2005 2:45:52 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Can you link the AGS statement you found?

I quoted the statement in my post above. You can see it in the popup to one of the FAQs here:
http://www.agslab.com/faq_consumer.html

ETA: Look under 'Grading', 'What is AGS 000 or Triple Zero'.

 

[dobie]

John, do you have a list of ratings for proportions, symmetry and polish that make up the final cut grade from 0 to 10? Is the final cut grade the highest number of proportions, symmetry and polish? Do people use AGS 033 to describe G VS1 Ideal 0 diamonds?

 

[dobie]

Date: 1/23/2005 2:57

7 AM
Author: Dancing Fire
you could have a stone that is'' ideal cut'' without ideal symmetry or polish.

So you and John are both saying an AGS 000 can have non-ideal symmetry and polish? Seems to me the word cut can refer to the proportion or proportion, sym and polish.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 1/23/2005 12:57:52 AM
Author: dobie

Date: 1/23/2005 12:34

8 AM
Author: JohnQuixote

Dobie - you''re right.  It is commonly misconstrued.  The appropriate term for ideal in cut, sym and polish is ''Triple ideal.''  As VKT mentioned, you can have a G SI stone which is ''Triple Ideal'' in cut...But the original AGS 000 is D FL.

I see that you used the word ''cut'' for proportion. So is ''Ideal Cut'' just ideal in proportion only or ideal in proportion, symmetry AND polish?

ETA: What is confusing is that in the quote I got from AGS they used ''Ideal Cut'' to include cut, color and clarity.

There are many standards for ideal cut from many different groups, ingluding GIA and AGS. For a stone to be an AGS "IDEAL" and received the vaunted AGS tripple 0 cut grade it must have ideal rankings on all three, proportions, polish and symmetry. If it has for example "only"excellent or very good then the highest cut grade it can receive is the lowest of the grades received. Thus a stone could have Ideal proportions, Excellent polish and Fair symmetry and the cut grade the stone would receive would be Fair.

Personally I believe that the use of both Excellent and Ideal by AGS is very confusing and I wish that they had done it differently.

Wink in Chile

P.S. I believe that you are confused in your interpretation of the quote you got from AGS as Ideal cut does not refer to cut, color and clarity, but only to cutting. Color and clarity are different issues. What the quote says is that historically the AGS000 grade referred to cut color and clarity but that eventually many people noticed that there were three individual components to the cut grade unlike the color and clarity so that eventually people started referring to the AGS000 CUT grade as well as to the color and clarity grades, making it some what confusing to very confusing for the uninitiated.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Dobie, 2 things...

1. Thank you for the link - very helpful. I''m not sure when AGS changed their position on this, but your version of what they are saying is correct. It appears they have now begun to acknowledge "Triple Zero" as a stone with ideal proportions, sym and polish. This is different than the historical interpretation.

2. As Wink observed from Chile, it''s all very muddled. The forthcoming cut grading systems from GIA and AGS will likely create even more muddle.

Therefore, my advice to you is to learn the different methods for assessing the proportions numbers (whether that''s going by AGS'' interp, a preferred vendor''s interp or your own interpretation of what''s "ideal."

 

[Brian Knox]

Sorry Dobie,

Looking at that AGS website FAQ, it certainly appears your assertion is correct.

Not sure when AGS changed their view...

But, when you''re right you''re right !

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 1/23/2005 11

0:59 PM
Author: JohnQuixote
Dobie, 2 things...

1. Thank you for the link - very helpful. I'm not sure when AGS changed their position on this, but your version of what they are saying is correct. It appears they have now begun to acknowledge 'Triple Zero' as a stone with ideal proportions, sym and polish. This is different than the historical interpretation.

2. As Wink observed from Chile, it's all very muddled. The forthcoming cut grading systems from GIA and AGS will likely create even more muddle.

Therefore, my advice to you is to learn the different methods for assessing the proportions numbers (whether that's going by AGS' interp, a preferred vendor's interp or your own interpretation of what's 'ideal.'

John
i don't understand how can a stone be call "triple 0" when there is only 1 zero printed on the cert, 99% of the time for( 0 cut only).i still say a "triple 0" should have 0 cut + D color + IF clarity.....now if the stone also has perfect H&A its call a..... "QUAD 0" stone.

 

[AGBF]

Actually this topic deserves its own thread if it hasn''t yet had one! As I was reading along (learning about why GIA started to grade high color diamonds starting with "D"), I was also ready to correct the misapprehension that AGS000 referred simply to an ideal *CUT* diamond. Because in the past-the RECENT past-it didn''t!!!! It would also have to be D color and IF clarity to be a 000.

I wonder why AGS changed that? Maybe just so that they could give more AGS000 ratings and therefore get cutters to send THEM stones instead of GIA? Or am I being too cynical? Or is it *possible* to be too cynical when it comes to the diamond industry?

 

[dobie]

I just bought a pair of 0.54 ctw G VS1 Ideal Cut H&A stud earrings. At this point, I''ve no ideas if they have ideal sym and polish or not. When I saw the diamonds, I didn''t look too closely at all the grading numbers.

 

[Kamuelamom]

Deb, I was tempted to link you back here in reference to the thread which you just began. I'm glad I read the whole thread through to realize that there was a deliberate reason for starting it, and this was the thread to which you referred.

Very interesting topic. Learning lots here tonight and I am totally confused now.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 1/24/2005 12:34:51 AM
Author: Dancing Fire

John

i don''t understand how can a stone be call ''triple 0'' when there is only 1 zero printed on the cert, 99% of the time for( 0 cut only).i still say a ''triple 0'' should have 0 cut + D color + IF clarity.....now if the stone also has perfect H&A its call a..... ''QUAD 0'' stone.

I''m with you...But it''s on the AGS site''s FAQ as otherwise now. Perhaps someone at AGS can clarify if no one here can.