Why have a certed diamond appraised?

[Richard Sherwood]

I always advise everyone to make this request when considering purchasing a diamond: "I like the diamond, but want to know what the absolute least you'll take on it is, before I make my final decision. I'd also like to purchase it contingent upon it appraising out to my satisfaction with an independent appraiser of my choice."

You'd be surprised sometimes how much money those two sentences will save you.

Here's some reasons for having an appraisal performed, even on a GIA stone from a trusted jeweler:

1. To determine whether you're paying a fair price for the stone.

2. To get an expert opinon from a neutral, non-involved, non-biased third party expert. Some jewelers are experts. Many jewelers are very knowledgeable, but not experts. Many are not very knowledgeable at all.

3. To determine if the stone matches the cert.

4. To get the appraiser's (hopefully expert) opinion on whether the stone appears to be correctly graded.

5. To have the appraiser translate all the technical terms to you, and tell you how they affect the desirability, salability and value of the diamond.

6. To determine the cut ranking of the diamond (which many certs don't address).

7. To have the appraiser supply missing data, such as crown/pavilion angles/height-depth, which is critical info.

8. To have advanced optical tests performed on the stone, as well as advanced optical photos (such as the diamond under an idealscope).

9. To see if any damage has occurred since the GIA report was performed.

10. To get an appraisal and value which you can use for insurance.

11. To get photos of the diamond, and ring.

A diamond purchase is a significant investment, of lasting value. I think it's smart shopping to know all you can about it. Everyone I've ever done an appraisal for who prior had reservations about having it done was always happy after receiving their report and consultation.

They were happy either because everything checked out fine, or happy because they gained further knowledge of their diamond which helped them in their purchasing decision, or future purchasing decisions (and from whom).

 

[strmrdr]

What are the disadvantages of waiting until after its mounted to have it appraised?
What tests cant be ran that can on an unset stone?

Any advantages to after being set other than verifying that it wasn’t damaged being set opposed to doing it before?

What is a fair price and are there different levels available?
ie: just matching it to the cert and an insurance acceptable report too a full blown analysis?
If there is what level do you recommend as the min. needed?

Are there any orgs or certs or memberships we should look for in choosing one?

How often do you find a diamond that doesn’t match the cert or is badly graded on a percentage bases? ie: 1% per year misgraded 5% per year diamond doesn’t match just as examples of what im looking for.

I know you have answered a lot of these questions separately but it would be nice to have it in one place for reference purposes.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Excellent questions, StormRider.

-----------
What are the disadvantages of waiting until after its mounted to have
it appraised?
What tests cant be ran that can on an unset stone?
-----------

An appraisal on a loose stone is easier than one on a set stone. It's easier to grade the color and clarity on a loose stone, as well as get all the necessary measurements (for example a direct depth measurement might be made impossible because of the setting).

You can't get an exact carat weight on a mounted stone.

You can't perform a Sarin report on a loose stone, or a BrillianceScope or Isee2 report.

That said, the majority of appraisals a guerilla gemologist does is on mounted diamonds, and most have adapted well to it. The process is made easier if there's a certificate to work with. The cert will give the exact measurements which the gemologist has difficulty getting, as well as indicate if there's inclusions hiding under the prongs, etc. This is one occasion in which I would advise showing the appraiser the cert ahead of time.

-----------
Any advantages to after being set other than verifying that it wasn’t
damaged being set opposed to doing it before?
-----------

That's one definite advantage. Another is you don't have to go through a second mailing period if you had the diamond appraised loose originally, along with paying extra for an update.

Another slight advantage is that the characteristics diagram will show where the inclusions are in relation to the prongs, which is kind of nice for getting your bearings when viewing the stone under a loupe.

-----------
What is a fair price and are there different levels available?
ie: just matching it to the cert and an insurance acceptable report
too a full blown analysis?
If there is what level do you recommend as the min. needed?
-----------

Appraisal fees usually range from $60 to $200 per hour. This can sometimes be misleading, because a $200 per hour confident, fast moving expert with the latest gadgets might be able to perform the appraisal quicker and cheaper than the $60 per hour appraiser.

On the average, you'll probably end up spending between $100 to $150 for most stones. Maybe a little less for small stones (5.00ct.).

Some appraisers have different levels of appraisals with different pricing. Most probably have one level of report they issue, with corresponding pricing. Many will perform a "cert matching" for around $40-$50.

I personally don't do "cert matching" because I feel it fails to adequately inform or protect the client, and found that usually most clients want more information than a simple cert matching gives.

-----------
Are there any orgs or certs or memberships we should look for in
choosing one?
-----------

The credentials and organizations covered under PriceScope's list of appraisers is an excellent reference in this regard. All of these organizations and designations are highly respected. I would recommend that an appraiser at least have a GG and minimum five years experience in the trade, along with as much "post graduate" experience as possible, which all of these organizations provide and designations indicate:

GG - Graduate Gemologist (GIA)
NAJA - Member of National Association of Jewelry Appraisers
NGJA - National Gem and Jewelry Appraiser (Senior Member, NAJA)
RMV - Registered Master Valuer
ASG - Accredited Senior Gemologist, Accredited Gemologist Association
CGA - Certified Gemologist Appraiser, AGS
AGS - American Gem Society
ASA - Accredited Senior Appraiser (American Society of Appraisers)
ISA - International Society of Appraisers
FGA - Fellow, Gemmological Assn. of Great Britain
MGA - Master Gemologist Appraiser® (American Society of Appraisers)

-----------
How often do you find a diamond that doesn’t match the cert...ie:
5% per year diamond doesn’t match...
-----------

In my experience this is quite rare and usually from a simple mistake. I probably run across this maybe once or twice a year, max.

-----------
How often do you find a diamond that is badly graded on a percentage
bases? ie: 1% per year misgraded...
-----------

This question is quite controversial, and worthy of a topic itself. I'll address it when I have entered "the zone", and am feeling centered, in touch with the universe and in a state of ultimate diplomacy.

Should be sometime this decade, at least. Probably when the sun, moon & planets align, and I've found a good Jewish attorney who eats nails for breakfast.

 

[strmrdr]

.

 

[newenglandgemlab]

---------Any advantages to after being set other than verifying that it wasn’t damaged being set opposed to doing it before?
-----------

It is nice to be able to verify the report and do the appraisal at the same time. It saves a lot of running around for the purchaser. You can't get it insured without the final appraisal of the finished piece. Of course, if the stone is bezel set this may not be ideal for verifying a report as it is very difficult to color grade in this situation and there could be some serious inclusions/blemishes on the girdle that are not visible.

---------
What is a fair price and are there different levels available?
ie: just matching it to the cert and an insurance acceptable report too a full blown analysis?
If there is what level do you recommend as the min. needed?
-----------
I personally don't do 'cert matching' because I feel it fails to adequately inform or protect the client, and found that usually most clients want more information than a simple cert matching gives.
-----------

We have a minimun charge of $85 for appraisals and report verifications. Prices will go up with larger stones and depending on what exactly is required. I agree with Rich, most clients need and require much more than cert matching. We have found that each client requires at least an hour in our office to adequately view the stone under the scope and for us to talk diamonds with them. If I find any descrepancies I like to show them why I feel the way I do about the stone. If the color grade is off I even show them how we color grade and show them how to use the master diamonds so we are all in agreement. I am very happy to go to these extremes. When I had my retail shoes on it was always a dilemma trying to figure out just how much knowledge someone wants or requires. When I buy a car I don't want to hear how a carburator works....but the next guy might. Everyone's requirements vary and we never know what each appointment will bring.

------------
How often do you find a diamond that doesn’t match the cert...ie:5% per year diamond doesn’t match...
-----------
In my experience this is quite rare and usually from a simple mistake. I probably run across this maybe once or twice a year, max.
-----------
How often do you find a diamond that is badly graded on a percentage bases? ie: 1% per year misgraded...
-----------
This question is quite controversial, and worthy of a topic itself. I'll address it when I have entered 'the zone', and am feeling centered, in touch with the universe and in a state of ultimate diplomacy.

Should be sometime this decade, at least. Probably when the sun, moon & planets align, and I've found a good Jewish attorney who eats nails for breakfast.
----------------[/quote]


As far as getting stones that don't match the report (wrong stone-wrong report) this is a rare occurence and usually due to clerical errors. Sometimes a saleperson can be showing several stones and they may end up in the wrong paper. This happens quite often on the B&M level. A good rule is to always weigh the stones after showing them. I have seen them come in from suppliers mismatched also. This is why everthing has to be checked and double checked. And just weighing doesn't always work. In a larger firm you could have a dozen 1.01 stones at any one time. How hard is that to mix up? I recommend getting to know your stone and spending time looking at it through the scope....don't rush! this is a big investment.

Now for the badly graded question....what report are we talking about? I consider myself a very fair grader. I had one yesterday that was GIA VS-2 but I would have graded it as a VS-1. I had one EGL cert this past week that I did agree with. Two CGA's looked it over and we were both surprised. Then I had a three stone EGL ring that I felt the colors were better but the clarity was a grade lower than listed. Normally most GIA and AGS reports are pretty consistent. We see so many more GIA stones than any other, that it is tough to judge on a percentage basis. But every once in a while we do catch a stone that for some reason slipped by quality control at the major labs. This happens...it may be just a typo, but human error does exist and getting an outside experienced grader to verify is very important. Even on the retail level before a store owner buys they are going to inspect (or should) so they are getting the very best stone they can for their money. Cindy

 

[strmrdr]

Thank you for the answers to my questions.

 

[strmrdr]

copied from one of my posts on another thread:

First a little background.
I work in the computer industry and deal with insurance companies often on behalf of our clients.
This is how it works the insurance companies have preferred providers and they will try and replace your computer with the lowest end computer that they can from that provider.
Usually it will be a dell in today’s computer world.
This works for a lot of people because it is a nice upgrade but for the special purpose user or a dedicated gamer it sucks.
The systems they want to shove on you wont come close to what you had.
For example we had a client with a $3000 tv production card in his computer that got hit by lightning and fried everything on it.
The $3000 was the current price he paid over $6000 for it.
They tried to force him to take a $2000 settlement or a dell of that value.
By having us explain to them in writing why it was not a just settlement he got enough money to get a system that had the card in it.
Now you ask what does this have to do with diamonds?
Well they work the same way if you have a claim and all you have is a picture of the setting and a piece of paper saying the diamond is a .5ct g si1 you will get the cheapest .5ct g si1 diamond their preferred provider can get.
For a mall store grade original that might be good enough.
But if you put your time in here before buying it’s a rip off.
You need the paperwork to prove it was something special and worth more than the cheapest stone they can get from their source.
The more paperwork the better off you are.
Keep in mind that the average insurance adjustor is likely not going to be a diamond expert and their job is to get you to go away as cheaply as possible.
The best way to get a fair settlement is to bury them in relevant paper and the paper has to be legit or its insurance fraud and you will do jail time.
Once the diamond is gone there is no way to get the needed paperwork for a fair replacement.

 

[JustCut]

cool thread.

My friend had a T-shirt on the other day. I was very impressed with him as it was something scribbed in Latin.

When asked to translate; it read:

"If you can read this you are over-educated"....haha

 

[stumpy]

I really didn't doubt my GIA report, and the appraiser confirmed it was accurate, except he graded the stone VVS1 and GIA said VVS2.

I had the loose stone appraised and after it was mounted I brought in the ring for final photos and valuation at no added charge.

The insurance company wanted an appraisal in order to list the ring on a rider to my policy.

The ring disappeared and I got a check for a replacement. The appraisal made this possible and I am glad I went that route.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Stumpy, that is one helluva avatar.

Thanks for the post demonstrating the usefulness of a good appraisal.

 

[ronim]

Gentlemen and all distinguished members of this forum,

Greetings from Istanbul-Turkey, virtually the other side of the world... And I need your help, please.

I was searching on the net looking for help regarding the appraisal of a Cartier Watch with diamond case and I came accross this web site.

I am planning to buy this watch (for my wife as my 25th anniv. gift) on the net from a seller from Miami Beach, but need to get the watch appraised before I decide. The seller, although accepts to send an appraisal report (from an independednt state apraisal office, as he says..) but he declines to send the copy of the report unless I send the payment..

Can any of you recommend me some reliable appraisal offices around the Miami Beach area? I will ask my son (who is a graduate student in VirginiaTech) to go down there and get the deal finalized if seller's representation is honest.

I will appreciate your recommendations.
And I wish you all happy holidays and Merry X-mas.

Best regards,
Ibrahim IMAMOGLU

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hello Ronim. Nice to hear from you.

Joseph Tenhagen is a highly respected appraiser in the Miami area.

I don't have his number handy, but his company is Diamond Profile Laboratories, Miami, FL.

 

[ronim]

Dear Richard,

Thank you very much for the reply. The seller does not accept any pre-sale appraisal and totally rejects to give an appraisal report unless the full payment is received. Therefore, I decided to give up..

In the mean time, I 've noted down the name you suggested for appraisal. In case, I find another item to replace this watch, I will gladly contact him.

Best regards,
Ibrahim IMAMOGLU

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
The seller does not accept any pre-sale appraisal and totally rejects
to give an appraisal report unless the full payment is received.
Therefore, I decided to give up.
-----------

Sounds like the prudent course of action.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
Am I correct in saying that the main problem is light reflection from
the mount ?
-----------

Yes, along with the contrast created between the metal and the diamond.

-----------
Would I further be correct in saying that platinum / white / yellow
gold all produce slightly different effects
-----------

Yes, each has it's own characteristic influence on perceived body color, which an appraiser gets to recognize the more experienced he is.

-----------
and that even further, the design of the mount will affect the
appraisers` conclusions ?
-----------

Absolutely. Probably the easiest mounted stone to color grade is a diamond mounted in an open Tiffany style setting, whereas a bezel mounted stone is much tougher.

-----------
And could you get an idea of the colour of the stone by ignoring the
mount and just looking through the diamond sideways ?
-----------

The biggest handicap with grading a mounted stone is that it's difficult to grade the diamond table down against a white background with a master stone table down next to it, which is the traditional color grading method.

I find a good way to get past this is to hold the subject ring against a white background so I'm viewing it through the table and crown at a 45 degree angle.

I then hold the master stone in a pair of tweezers next to the subject stone at the same 45 degree angle. When viewing from this angle the body color of both stones will concentrate in certain areas of the stone, typically around the girdle reflection area and upper girdle facet areas.

These areas of color concentration seem to provide a good reference point for color comparison between the subject and master stone, allowing for (usually) accurate or (sometimes) fairly accurate color grading.

In the case of bald appraisers, an additional compensation is required for the "head shine" factor created by the brilliant reflection off the crown of their head. This blinding light source has caused many an appraiser to give up hope of ever correctly color grading.

In your case Furthermore, this handicap would be additionally aggravated by ever present clouds of cigar smoke and consumption of large amounts of fine whisky.

 

[askdeepa]

Hi,
you info was very useful. i have a question though. Can you really trust internet shopping for Diamonds? How is bluenile.com? Can they be trusted? I would really appreciate your help on this. Thanks

Deepa

 

[cool_rock]

 

[lkhart]

Richard,


I also am a newbe to this site, but want to learn more about setting stones and diamonds alike, all gem stones I just like to call them stones but the best of the best is diamonds in my book, I have aquired black diamonds, which I really love the most out of all my diamonds... but I also have some lose stones which I have no clue what they are... one is a heart shaped and it looks green, very dark green even under black fluoresent lighting, and I also have a dark stone which I cannot look through at all so who knows what that one is....lol, is there a site which I can go and see all kinds of stones and just maybe find the dark one? along with many of the others...


Thanks for any and all help you may or may not be able to give...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hi LK, thanks for the inquiry.

-----------
also am a newbe to this site, but want to learn more about setting
stones and diamonds alike,
-----------

The GIA (Gemological Institute Of America) has some courses on setting stones and diamonds. You can even take them over the Internet.

-----------
but I also have some lose stones which I have no clue what they are...
one is a heart shaped and it looks green, very dark green even under
black fluoresent lighting,
-----------

peridot? green tourmaline? emerald? diopside? tsavorite? green glass?

-----------
and I also have a dark stone which I cannot look through at all so who
knows what that one is....lol,\
-----------

black onyx? hematite? granite?

-----------
is there a site which I can go and see all kinds of stones and just
maybe find the dark one? along with many of the others...
-----------

You might find the ThaiGems site interesting. It has a ton of colored stones pictured on it (thaigems.com). Also the Pala International site is fascinating (palagems.com).

Another site with a lot of colored stone gemological info is yourgemologist.com.

Fun stuff, eh?

 

[Vitello76]

Richard-

Just following up from another thread, I took your advice and I'm going to have a stone appraised at PGS in Chicago. The woman I spoke with seemed very knowledagble and very willing to help and told me with my stone/setting it would be $80.00 for this apprasial and cert virification service.

What should I be expecting for this $80 (other than piece of mind)?

Also, now that I'll have it in hand, I'm going to feel ackward handing this diamond to someone, anyone...even an appraiser...who will take it out of my sight. Am I paranoid?


vitello

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hi Vitello. I answered your question about paranoia on the other Rocky Talk thread.

As far as what you get for $80, I'd be curious to know myself. Why don't you report back to us after you've had it done?

 

[Vitello76]

Well, the deal is done!

I am the proud (albeit temporary) owner of a 1.34 H/VS2 princess stone w/ setting.

Immediately after purchasing the ring/diamond I walked across the street to PGS for my appraisal. I asked them to be very critical of the stone and give me the true ins-and-outs. It took about 1.5 hours, which I wasn't allowed to watch because of their insurance, but she showed me the white laser (cold laser?) inscripted GIA number so that I could verify it when I came back.

I want to note here that Miriam at PGM was fantastic.

When I bought the stone, I got the original GIA cert with it. When I brought it to PGM, and mentioned that I had bought the stone close by, she asked me not to tell her where until after the apprasial. After they were finished I was given a "Carte Blu" apprasial form which pretty much just attaches a monetary value to the stone/ring and verifys the info from the GIA cert...this is what I wanted/needed.

That said, I was expecting to find they'd provided some of the testing I'd read about here on this thread, but essentailly this was just the basic cert verification. She did show me my ring and diamond under the microscope to point out some items/issues (there was a stone that wasn't set into the ring!...must bring it back for repair already!) but pretty much, the diamond is a fair rock.


So at the end she appraised it for about 27% more than I paid and was a bit suprised when I told her where and from whom I'd made the purchase...again I'm told this person doesn't deal direct with the public but his settings are well regarded. I think things worked out well.


So this will probably end it for now. Thanks to everyone who helped me make a more informed decision. And wish me luck when I try to give this ring away!

vitello

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
And wish me luck when I try to give this ring away!
-----------

Best of luck, Vitello. I envy you this exciting period of your life.

Congratulations on your purchase!

 

[hughmcg]

Okay. I've been lurking for a while, and now its time for the rubber to hit the road. I know just enough to be dangerous, and am getting close to buying. I'm going into look at a couple of 1.5 ct. (more or less), VS1 -SI, H-I. I feel pretty good about the jeweler I'm dealing with, but still feel that I should get the diamond appraised. A few questions:

1. How exactly does this work? I buy it (loose) with a full money-back guarantee (for any reason or just if not appraised as they say?), and walk it in to a local appraiser?


2. I'm not buying on the web. Can anybody make recommendations of good (read: honest) Philadelphia area jewelers and/or appraisers? We're dealing with Harzin on Jewelers Row right now, and so far - so good, but I would welcome second (and third!) opinions.

Thanks in advance and I hope I am not being redundant to other previous posts.

HM

 

[wonka27]

If your working in Philly, you have an outstanding opportunity with an appraiser. Dave Atlas (oldminer) is a highly respected contributor to this message board. He is based in Philly, and will be able to serve your needs without question. I'd call and find out their procedures, but I'd assume you need to schedule an appointment. Here is his information, copied from the appraisers page:

David Atlas, GG, NGJA, ASG
Accredited Gem Appraisers
732 Sansom Street
Philadelphia, PA
215-873-CERT
www.gemappraisers.com

 

[kaya]

Do people generally have a GOG diamond independently appraised even with all the information provided? If so how does that work? do you purchase the stone and then find an appraiser? I'm think about buying a GOG diamond but am not sure if others have gone and done this step (the independent appraisal). This is my first purchase.

 

[strmrdr]

----------------
On 8/28/2004 10:25:47 PM kaya wrote:

Do people generally have a GOG diamond independently appraised even with all the information provided? If so how does that work? do you purchase the stone and then find an appraiser? I'm think about buying a GOG diamond but am not sure if others have gone and done this step (the independent appraisal). This is my first purchase. ----------------

Id skip the unset appraisal and have it appraised after setting on a diamond from GOG.
Other than telling you that GOG shipped the right stone the appraiser cant tell you much that GOG hasn’t already shown you.
If you take it to the setters in person have them show you the diamond under a scope and you can probable tell if its the right stone yourself.
Then look at it again under the scope once its set to verify that its your stone.
Then get an independent appraiser to evaluate the whole ring and do an insurance appraisal.

The best thing you can do is buy a loupe and learn to identify your ring and what the setting looks like.
Then every couple months loupe your ring looking for damage.
10x loupe is fine for a si class stone and maybe a vs2.
vs1 or better Id get a 10x and a 20x or 30x loupe.

 

[epbb]

Richard, Strmrdr,

Thank you both for all of your information. I am beginning my quest to find an engagement ring for my girlfriend of about 5 years, and I'm starting to get rather overwhelmed with the amount of information here.

I'm in the NY area, so I think I'm going to take a look at what GOG has to offer.

I am confused though as to how I go about getting the ring, and also how I get it appraised. I'm not sure if I have given myself enough time here to get a ring, as I am planning on proposing to her in the middle of October. Is this enough time to find the right ring?

What is your advice on how to properly purchase an engagement ring? Should I buy the loose stone first, and appraise it? Then find the setting and other stones (I'm looking for some tapered baguettes or something on the side), then mount the loose stone, and have it appraised once more? Or is this too much money to be spending on appraisals? I'm really getting confused and would really appreciate your advice.

Sorry for the long post... Thanks so much in advance for your help.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

-----------
I'm not sure if I have given myself enough time here to get a ring,
as I am planning on proposing to her in the middle of October. Is
this enough time to find the right ring?
-----------

Should be plenty of time, unless you're having a ring custom made by a popular designer. Otherwise, no problem.

-----------
Should I buy the loose stone first, and appraise it? Then find the
setting and other stones (I'm looking for some tapered baguettes or
something on the side), then mount the loose stone, and have it
appraised once more? Or is this too much money to be spending on
appraisals? I'm really getting confused and would really appreciate
your advice.
-----------

I usually recommend that if the client is getting a diamond from a vendor with a good rep who gives a lot of supporting information, photos and test results to have the diamond appraised after it is mounted.

Otherwise, I would recommend taking the opportunity while it's loose to get all the critical information not supplied by a vendor, and then revising the appraisal to reflect the ring mounting after the diamond is set.