strmrdr
Super_Ideal_Rock
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2003
- Messages
- 23,295
Doesn''t really matter it wont change the fact the difference is in the pavilion not the crown.Date: 5/18/2009 7:46:34 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Karl- I''m not trying to be evasive- Dave did not send me the sarin data- or I somehow missed it.
We''ll get them.
David i would like me and others to be able to repeat the way you look at diamonds.Date: 5/18/2009 6:04:58 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Garry- I really don;t know what else you are looking for- I''m not trying to be evasive.
Part of what makes my photos look as they do is my training.
Remember, working as a grader meant I needed to be very good with a loupe and tweezers.
This translated into a great ability to be able to to hold diamond, or ring, in one hand, the camera in the other, and take photos very close to the diamonds. That''s how you can see the details as well as you can.
Of course the problem any diamond photo faces is that it needs to be enlarged using some method- in the case of our photos, it''s the camera''s proximity to the item.
Others may use other methods.
You need to do something, because the darn things are kinda small to show actual size.
For this reason, the best anyone wanting to show diamonds can hope for is a compromise.
Would it be better if every seller used the same equipment, in the same manner?
Maybe, but we''d loose something there as well.
David here is a link to download free software so you can see for your self how many of the largest Indian companies use Sergey''s software - you will find this amazing - download version 1.5 program from hereDate: 5/18/2009 7:28:25 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thanks for participating Ellen!
A case could easily be made that the computer tools are more important.
Primarily in the area of taking apiece of rough diamond, and allowing the cutter to plot the finished diamond precisely.
I''m sure one of the experts will have an answer to help me learn more about IS/ASET....are there cutters using ASET/IS during the cutting process?
David I do not have a photo solution for you. i am not pushing an ideal format at all.Date: 5/18/2009 8:42:22 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Clearly there are different ways of looking at photography, as there are looking at diamonds.
I''d be absolutely thrilled if a reliable third party wanted to photograph them using a different style that you prefer Garry.
Plaid Shirt, Polka dot pants.
Here''s another photo
For my money, I think the argument is much simpler: Their target market isn''t limited to the cut-ophiles. Their target market is "anyone who wants to buy a diamond online."Date: 5/15/2009 12:49:24 PM
Author: denverappraiser
Blue Nile and other retailers could, if they wanted to, include more information about their stones although this would not come without a certain amount of costs as well as other problem. They’re a well run company and they don’t make this sort of decision lightly so this begs the question why they’ve chosen not to do it even though that seems to be the direction of the majority of their competition and it seems to be a successful strategy. I’ll summarily dismiss the explanation that it’s because they’re stupid or that they aren’t paying attention, they most definitely are not so the question remains. It is correct that we will never really know the answers here because how and why they do things is a trade secret of great importance but we can speculate.
Maybe they don’t think providing more data (ASET, IS, photomicrographs, Sarin scans, etc.) would be useful in assisting their clients in evaluating stones.
Maybe they think the costs would be prohibitive to them and/or their suppliers.
Frankly, these both seem unlikely. My theory is that it would reduce their ability to sell stones that might sell poorly given more information. I also think it would reduce their ability to upsell buyers to their own branded ‘signature’ line where they DO provide a little more in the form of the GCAL report. Providing free information that makes their stones easier to compare to offerings elsewhere is NOT necessarily in their best interest.
Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
Wow what a help that is David - I can certainly replicate everything you see now.Date: 5/18/2009 9:30:38 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
I think it''s really part and parcel of the conversation Garry.
How I see diamonds is really from about 6 inches from my face, to arm''s length.
Yes, I love louping the diamond- but i make buying decisions based on far more factors- based heavily on how a diamond looks naked eye.
To someone who''s looking for precise facet alignment, ASET/IS is essential.
But what if you don''t necessarily want such a perfect alignment?
A smaller table may focus the light in a manner preferred by many- again- ASET/IS is a great tool for identifying that.
But what if one likes a slightly larger table? What if one likes a slightly less focused light reflection?
I''m suggesting that in such cases, it''s possible that ASET/IS does not show what a particular person wants to see. In such cases, an '' 6 inch to arm''s length'' view is preferable.
Hi Marian,Date: 5/17/2009 11:41:22 PM
Author: risingsun
This is my photo of an AGS 0 hearts and arrow diamond. I wonder why your pic looks so much different than mineI never pick up those black bits. Sometimes, if I try, I can get some black arrows to show up, but never like those that appear in your photos.![]()
Did I ever ask what you SEE David?Date: 5/19/2009 12:17:10 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Garry- I see what I''m describing. The larger table diamond has a less organized facet pattern- which I prefer. The larger tabled diamond seems to focus the light less ( if that''s a way of describing it)
The only time I see the arrows is when I tilt my hand. Then I see maybe three at a time. They are not black, but diamond colored, if that makes sense. Taking a good black arrows photo takes time and effort and doesn''t represent a real life depiction of the stone. Does that make sense to you? The black arrow pics are to show the consumer the cut characteristics of the diamond. Not to indicate how it will look on your hand.Date: 5/19/2009 12:17:10 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Hi Marian,Date: 5/17/2009 11:41:22 PM
Author: risingsun
This is my photo of an AGS 0 hearts and arrow diamond. I wonder why your pic looks so much different than mineI never pick up those black bits. Sometimes, if I try, I can get some black arrows to show up, but never like those that appear in your photos.![]()
That''s an amazing looking diamond!
You have stumbled upon how difficult it is to photograph diamonds.
Your photos are nice looking, but don''t show some of the details in the diamond.
In fact many of the photos I see of near tolk stones show a lot of district arrows.
It''s absolutely great you got exactly what you wanted and used all the tools you felt you needed in your purchase.
Garry- I see what I''m describing. The larger table diamond has a less organized facet pattern- which I prefer. The larger tabled diamond seems to focus the light less ( if that''s a way of describing it)
Date: 5/18/2009 5:40:06 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
Serg, Garry, Moh: I have seen David taking photos of stones, and said photos being published on his site later simply after cropping. While I cannot say anything about the specific photos here, I can say that he uses basic photo equipment and very often uses sunlight rather than artificial lighting.
Serg - if I may ask a question: why do you think that holding the stones between two fingers is not a reasonable representation of a 'consumer' view of a set stone? I'd think most light coming from below the pavillion would be blocked by the fingers, wouldn't it?
Fancy colored Diamonds love sunlight....Date: 5/19/2009 3:05:42 AM
Author: Serg
Date: 5/18/2009 5:40:06 PM
Author: oldmancoyote
Serg, Garry, Moh: I have seen David taking photos of stones, and said photos being published on his site later simply after cropping. While I cannot say anything about the specific photos here, I can say that he uses basic photo equipment and very often uses sunlight rather than artificial lighting.
Serg - if I may ask a question: why do you think that holding the stones between two fingers is not a reasonable representation of a ''consumer'' view of a set stone? I''d think most light coming from below the pavillion would be blocked by the fingers, wouldn''t it?
Oldmancoyote,
Re:Serg, Garry, Moh: I have seen David taking photos of stones, and said photos being published on his site later simply after cropping. While I cannot say anything about the specific photos here, I can say that he uses basic photo equipment and very often uses sunlight rather than artificial lighting.
I never told what David edit(Photoshoping) his photos, didn’t I?
re:Serg - if I may ask a question: why do you think that holding the stones between two fingers is not a reasonable representation of a ''consumer'' view of a set stone?
It depends from direction to main light source . If you try compare or grade diamonds from short distance you very often try add additional light ( specially if you want take shot) . Because distance is between observer and diamond is short you have mainly two options :
1) Ring illumination
2) Light in direction 60-120 degree from axis diamond –observer
Gemologist, retailers … usually use only second option. But in consumer “habitat” light sources have much bigger distance from diamond and typical position for artificial lights sources are quite far from angle 60-120 degree( from observer – diamond axis)
Please see photos what we published several times on PS.
This photos is very good illustration how result for diamond comparison depends from light schema and how big difference in results could be between gemological and consumer light schemas .
For each light schema you can create “Best “ diamond
SO my fro David is :
If diamond A is more bright than Diamond B in gemological light schema, but Diamond B is more bright than Diamond A in consumer light schema.
Which diamond is better for consumer?
Is my question clear enough now?
Re: I''d think most light coming from below the pavilion would be blocked by the fingers, wouldn''t it?
Depends from orientation between hand and light source. I think fingers does not block all pavilion light on David photo
Yes because many of them are cut with tiny virtual facets and long light paths.Date: 5/19/2009 3:24:26 AM
Author: DiaGem
Fancy colored Diamonds love sunlight....![]()
Many of the pictures you see on the net overstate the head shadow.Date: 5/19/2009 12:52:50 AM
Author: risingsun
The only time I see the arrows is when I tilt my hand. Then I see maybe three at a time. They are not black, but diamond colored, if that makes sense. Taking a good black arrows photo takes time and effort and doesn't represent a real life depiction of the stone. Does that make sense to you? The black arrow pics are to show the consumer the cut characteristics of the diamond. Not to indicate how it will look on your hand.
fixed typoDate: 5/19/2009 4:43:11 AM
Author: strmrdr
People are much more likely to seek out this lighting with step cuts to get lost in the patterns and tend to view them closer and looking down into them.
Very cool detail shot Storm... Is it an actual photo, and did you take this it?Date: 5/19/2009 4:46:18 AM
Author: strmrdr
That is why this is my favorite DC lighting as I found it represented a real world view with wifey2b''s diamond.
DC virtual image.Date: 5/19/2009 2:46:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Very cool detail shot Storm... Is it an actual photo, and did you take this it?Date: 5/19/2009 4:46:18 AM
Author: strmrdr
That is why this is my favorite DC lighting as I found it represented a real world view with wifey2b''s diamond.
There has been huge gains in diamond tooling that has allowed large production houses to cut to a level once reserved to the finest cutters.Date: 5/19/2009 2:46:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
what''s your opinion on the importance in the improvement in tools such as the dop?
Date: 5/19/2009 2:46:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Very cool detail shot Storm... Is it an actual photo, and did you take this it?Date: 5/19/2009 4:46:18 AM
Author: strmrdr
That is why this is my favorite DC lighting as I found it represented a real world view with wifey2b''s diamond.
Serg- I never use photo shop- or ANY editing program to alter anything about exposure, colors or anything except cropping.
With regards to your question about ''gemological versus consumer'' light scheme....a good question- and integral to the debate about photos. If the so called gemological lighting is more accurate, many would prefer that. But accuracy of image might actually make the image less ''real world'' realistic. Does the consumer what clinical, or practical?
We go for practical.
Garry- I am really trying to answer your question, much as I understand it.
How I look at diamonds:
Primarily natural light
I am lucky in that our offices are flooded with natural light- we have huge south facing windows that fill one entire wall.
There is a high ceiling, with dazor ( I believe) fl bulbs mounted under diffusers.
We have desk lamps- 3 bulb diamond assorting lamps- but generally I only need to use those to loupe the stone. For ''normal'' viewing I simply hold the diamond in between my fingers, in a tweezer, in a folded piece of paper- or sometimes we might have a ring without a center stone that I can drop the diamond into.
The last method- when there''s an applicable ring to use- might be the most telling.
Garry- and others: On the prior page I spoke about advances in tools, versus advances in computer modeling. You immediately discussed the computer modeling- what''s your opinion on the importance in the improvement in tools such as the dop?
Strm..., would you be shocked if I tell you cutters still use the same dops used decades ago...Date: 5/19/2009 3:26:55 PM
Author: strmrdr
There has been huge gains in diamond tooling that has allowed large production houses to cut to a level once reserved to the finest cutters.Date: 5/19/2009 2:46:29 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
what''s your opinion on the importance in the improvement in tools such as the dop?
Diamonds like the one you posted with sloppy optical symmetry are getting rare.
Even steep/deep huge girdle rounds are showing decent optical symmetry most of the time these days.
That is because of the advances in tooling and technique.