Windows at the Smithsonian Gem Exhibition????

[Pinkmartini87]

Hi all,

Just visited the Smithsonian museum of natural history and was peeking in on their collection of gems, armed now with my new knowledge from this forum

How come so many of the stones at the Smithsonian have windows? I thought they are supposed to be gem conoisseurs? Is the intense window hating exclusive to this pricescope forum? I also saw some big windows at the Intergem show in town too and some of the dealers brushed me off quite rudely when I noted the window in their stones. Why doesn't anyone else outside of this forum care about the gaping hole in the middle???

 

[elle_71125]

Man, you're not kidding. That beryl!
It's even more obvious when the gems are humongous. Sometimes, I think PS has ruined us. I won't even buy a gemstone ring at a mall store anymore. I'm far too picky now.

 

[lilmosun]

How come so many of the stones at the Smithsonian have windows?

Most stones are in museum exhibits are on display because of size - not their fine faceting. Windows are usually the result from trying to keep the face up size as large as possible.

If they want to show big stones nature produced, maybe they should just show unfaceted gemstpme rough but that probably wouldn't impress the crowds.

 

[pristine]

This is Andrea, copying and pasting Rogerio's words from an email to someone else about gem cutting.

"When cutting gems, a gem cutter has to determine the best overall cut for the gemstone in question. There are a number of variables to be considered beyond windowing alone; such as color (there are areas of a stone that can impact color, so cutting decisions are made around this), the gemstone’s final size, gemstone value, inclusions, color zoning and so on. Also, the original size and depth of a gemstone can affect a gem cutter’s decision among all the other factors above. A deeper stone would allow a stone cutter to cut more facets adding brilliance to a stone and vice versa."

Rogerio and I have a blog on precision cut gemstones, but we are thinking we should broaden that blog to include the overall decision-making process in gem cutting. Maybe we can share it here?? Is it allowed? I have already broken some rules here, and I don't want to break any more!

 

[pristine]

ps...most of those stones have been cut a long time ago in countries where they used the traditional cutting machines, and again, in this case, size is what mattered as @lilmosun said.

 

[Seaglow]

The Smithsonian in my opinion has the best display for gems compared to other museums, and free entrance to boot. Wait till you see the cutting of colored stones in the British Crown Jewels and other Crown Jewels of other royals. You might cringe to see lop-sided stones face up.

 

[T L]

Just because a gem is in a museum doesn't mean it's a fine specimen. Although the Smithsonian has some world class gems, some are not so fabulous. Speaking of windowed gems, the Smithsonian's own Logan sapphire is a huge sapphire with a window that practically takes up the whole face of the stone.

 

[Burmesedaze]

The Smithsonian in my opinion has the best display for gems compared to other museums, and free entrance to boot. Wait till you see the cutting of colored stones in the British Crown Jewels and other Crown Jewels of other royals. You might cringe to see lop-sided stones face up.

Yes I was greatly underwhelmed by them during my London trip! I went in the travellator 3x just to check if I'm missing something in the crown jewels. Mostly for size and flat beyond the worst native cut I've seen in Myanmar in modern times! But the reds of the spinels and rubies were very lovely and hardly to be seen in such shades or face up sizes here now.

 

[Burmesedaze]

In = on

 

[valeria101]

They used to be done in any size, or synthetics - where rough does not restrict.

Not sure when the apreciation of windowns got to a close ...

What do I see in them: just the quality of the rough & nothing more.

 

[Pinkmartini87]

Rogerio and I have a blog on precision cut gemstones, but we are thinking we should broaden that blog to include the overall decision-making process in gem cutting. Maybe we can share it here?? Is it allowed? I have already broken some rules here, and I don't want to break any more!

Thank you for sharing! I personally would love to learn more about your decision making process if that's allowed here on the forum!!

 

[pristine]

Thank you for sharing! I personally would love to learn more about your decision making process if that's allowed here on the forum!!

Hi @Pinkmartini87 We have to update our blog in the next week or two. I will post a new thread with a link to the blog. Hopefully it is OK?

 

[chrono]

Hi @Pinkmartini87 We have to update our blog in the next week or two. I will post a new thread with a link to the blog. Hopefully it is OK?

Best to run this through the PS mod first.

 

[pristine]

Best to run this through the PS mod first.

Thank you @chrono I guess I just hit the "report concern" button to access the PS moderator?

 

[chrono]

Thank you @chrono I guess I just hit the "report concern" button to access the PS moderator?

Yup, that's the one.

 

[Luce]

Just because a gem is in a museum doesn't mean it's a fine specimen. Although the Smithsonian has some world class gems, some are not so fabulous. Speaking of windowed gems, the Smithsonian's own Logan sapphire is a huge sapphire with a window that practically takes up the whole face of the stone.

 

[Luce]

Just visited the logan sapphire in march!

 

[pwsg07]

Of all the 400 plus carat sapphires I have seen, this has the best clarity. I have seen the Queen Marie of Romania's Sapphire and the Blue Giant of the Orient.

 

[Arkteia]

It is my understanding that most of the stones at Smithsonian were cut in old times. (I know that some of our modern gemcutters have donated precision cut stones to Smithsonian, so it had its share of modern precision cut stones). Antique cuts, however, are very different from what we are used to see nowadays.

 

[Burmesedaze]

It is my understanding that most of the stones at Smithsonian were cut in old times. (I know that some of our modern gemcutters have donated precision cut stones to Smithsonian, so it had its share of modern precision cut stones). Antique cuts, however, are very different from what we are used to see nowadays.

I can't focus on the windows in this thread. Too distracted and taken with that bold dash of pink in your avatar

In the past, there was no Pricescope to share on windows across different shores

 

[pristine]

Thank you for sharing! I personally would love to learn more about your decision making process if that's allowed here on the forum!!

Hi @Pinkmartini87 The moderator has told me that it is not allowed. I suggest checking the blog on our website in about 2-3 weeks. Thank you!

 

[Pinkmartini87]

It is my understanding that most of the stones at Smithsonian were cut in old times. (I know that some of our modern gemcutters have donated precision cut stones to Smithsonian, so it had its share of modern precision cut stones). Antique cuts, however, are very different from what we are used to see nowadays.

That's an interesting historical perspective, thank you! Makes one wonder why stones cut in "old times" are often thought to be poorly cut nowadays. 1)Perhaps it was harder to cut by hand than by modern machinery, thus making it more difficult to avoid windows? 2)Perhaps aesthetics were different back then? Ie folks back then didn't care about the windows as much as we do now (i.e. it was an "accepted" and acceptable feature of hand cutting), and chose to emphasize color/size instead? One could said maybe they didn't "know" any better, since precision cutting wasn't available to them to show them the light hehe

For the experts on PS, when did precision cut start, and become prevalent?

 

[Pinkmartini87]

Hi @Pinkmartini87 The moderator has told me that it is not allowed. I suggest checking the blog on our website in about 2-3 weeks. Thank you!

Thank you for taking the time to let us all know! I'll check on your blog in a few weeks then!

 

[Arkteia]

That's an interesting historical perspective, thank you! Makes one wonder why stones cut in "old times" are often thought to be poorly cut nowadays. 1)Perhaps it was harder to cut by hand than by modern machinery, thus making it more difficult to avoid windows? 2)Perhaps aesthetics were different back then? Ie folks back then didn't care about the windows as much as we do now (i.e. it was an "accepted" and acceptable feature of hand cutting), and chose to emphasize color/size instead? One could said maybe they didn't "know" any better, since precision cutting wasn't available to them to show them the light hehe

For the experts on PS, when did precision cut start, and become prevalent?

I, too, wish our famed cutters could chime in. (Because my thinking is, when there were no computers and diagrams, and also i-net to spread the knowledge till very recently, so all precision cut is probably since late 90es if that).

In one French museum (the same that holds True nail and a piece of True Crown that were brought to France in 12th century I think) there are many gems cut in the style of that time. Not appealing, that is. I should search for photos...

It would be also interesting to know who pioneered precision cut, and who made it mainstream and affordable.

 

[Arkteia]

I might end up in Koln soon, to see it with my own eyes... this is a better reliquary, but still the cuts of the stones are nothing compared to what precision cutters do today... I should look for Notre Dame photos at home, I remember looking at amazing Colombian emeralds and trying to find an angle to make a shot. Nothing worked as their cut was poor. The only old stones that looked better than today's ones were spessartites in Prague, but maybe it was the quality of the material.

 

[Austina]

When we went to Buck House to see the Queens diamond exhibit, one of her huge pear diamond earrings was completely different to the other, something you'd probably never notice in her ears

 

[pristine]

I, too, wish our famed cutters could chime in. (Because my thinking is, when there were no computers and diagrams, and also i-net to spread the knowledge till very recently, so all precision cut is probably since late 90es if that).

In one French museum (the same that holds True nail and a piece of True Crown that were brought to France in 12th century I think) there are many gems cut in the style of that time. Not appealing, that is. I should search for photos...

It would be also interesting to know who pioneered precision cut, and who made it mainstream and affordable.

Hi Arkteia,

This is Andrea trying to answer your question accurately on behalf of Rogerio.

Rogerio learned to cut gemstones using a Jarvi facetron in the late 80's. This cutting machine is a digital precision cut machine. At the time Rogerio learned the trade/skill, Jarvi was considered a bit of a pioneer in this technology. Rogerio believes it had been around for about a decade by the time he learned, but it hadn't really caught on until he went into the business. I Googled "Jarvi", and the family has been in this industry since 1974. It didn't say when their facetron was first used however.
Rogerio said there was another precision cut machine that came out around that time, but it wasn't digital. The brand name was "Lee". I hope this helps.

 

[Pinkmartini87]

Hi Arkteia,

This is Andrea trying to answer your question accurately on behalf of Rogerio.

Rogerio learned to cut gemstones using a Jarvi facetron in the late 80's. This cutting machine is a digital precision cut machine. At the time Rogerio learned the trade/skill, Jarvi was considered a bit of a pioneer in this technology. Rogerio believes it had been around for about a decade by the time he learned, but it hadn't really caught on until he went into the business. I Googled "Jarvi", and the family has been in this industry since 1974. It didn't say when their facetron was first used however.
Rogerio said there was another precision cut machine that came out around that time, but it wasn't digital. The brand name was "Lee". I hope this helps.

Dear Andrea,

Thank you for the wonderful information! I'm fascinated with the history of gem cutting almost as much as I am with the stones themselves!

Your response was very thought provoking and begs the question why so often stones were in fact cut with windows in the pre-precision cut era. I wish we could talk to a cutter from the first half of the 20th century but of course that is not possible as he or she would be over 100 years old!! I'd love to know if people up to the Art Deco era or even later thought of windows, or perhaps they didn't think of them at all! I've seen many very expensive antique pieces with gaping windows on very nice and expensive stones--hard to believe that they would have chosen to cut this way if in fact windows were as taboo then as they are now.

 

[Arkteia]

I found this... not about colored gems, but interesting nonetheless

https://www.gemsociety.org/article/the-history-of-lapidary/

Facetron has an interesting story about how a machine comes out of the need

http://facetron.com/about/

But likely, facetron was not the first machine...

 

[pristine]

Thanks @Arkteia That "History of the Lapidary" looks like a very interesting article!