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rainbowtrout

Ideal_Rock
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This woman has some guts to put herself out there like this...I say more power to her. Agree or disagree, you have to have major balls to go on Al Jazeera and say this.

"Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, "The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling."

She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."

Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. "We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders," said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization."

full article at : http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1142658000&en=b4f299e717e81006&ei=5070
 
Al Jazeera has a history of interviewing people with unpopular middle east views; prior to the iraq invasion they were accused of being too pro-west for having interviewed members of the current US administration.

netflix carries the movie CONTROL ROOM and it is indeed worth seeing.

movie zombie
 
I''ve seen it, actually.


I still say you have to be brave to do that, regardless of their history of bucking the Arab gov''ts...its not the network I''d be nervous of, its the people watching it.
 
Al Jazeera still believes in journalism....and that there is a responsibility to report.
i would think the station and the woman have lots to worry about given the present climate in arabic and muslim communities re israel in general: balls to say it and balls to report it.

a good follow up to CONTROL ROOM is WHY WE FIGHT...if you''re in the mood for more documentary film. i''m guessing you may have also seen it already........

movie zombie
 
i haven''t actually...can you give me the name of the director or something in case the library search engine goes all pissy?
 
Date: 3/16/2006 11:03:57 PM
Author:rainbowtrout
This woman has some guts to put herself out there like this...I say more power to her. Agree or disagree, you have to have major balls to go on Al Jazeera and say this.


''Perhaps her most provocative words on Al Jazeera were those comparing how the Jews and Muslims have reacted to adversity. Speaking of the Holocaust, she said, ''The Jews have come from the tragedy and forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror; with their work, not with their crying and yelling.''


She went on, ''We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people.''


She concluded, ''Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.''


Her views caught the ear of the American Jewish Congress, which has invited her to speak in May at a conference in Israel. ''We have been discussing with her the importance of her message and trying to devise the right venue for her to address Jewish leaders,'' said Neil B. Goldstein, executive director of the organization.''


full article at : http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/11/international/middleeast/11sultan.html?ex=1142658000&en=b4f299e717e81006&ei=5070

With all due respect, I have a problem with the types of statements expressed by Wafa Sultan. She says we have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a restaurant. But we have seen Jews blow up others in restaurants and other public places. Remember the Stern Gang, Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, not to mention Deir Yassin? How about the continuing policy of bulldozing homes in the occupied territories?

This is not to excuse the attrocities committed by extremists. But it is ridiculous to suggest that one religious group has some monopoly on bad behavior.

It''s not surprising that the American Jewish Congress is interested in listening to her views. But real understanding will not occur in such an echo chamber, but when both Muslims and Jews begin to listen to those who do not share their own beliefs. The constant confrontation, the constant escalation feeds on itself and no good comes of it.
 
very true and I certainly respect your opinion on this. I actually thought back to those bombings when I read the article. I do think that someone from within the Muslim community is going to have to start being radical in the other direction though, and this is what I applaud her for, as well as for just having the courage to speak her mind.

No, talking to the Jewish group won''t help as much...but talking on al-Jazeera and surviving the fallout might. IMO, the Middle Eastern gov''ts DO need to stop blaming the Israeli''s for everything that goes wrong--maybe this is a step in the right direction.
 
yes, the movie MUNICH certainly makes it very clear that the jewish community had no qualms re killing others.....and it certainly makes the escalation point very very well. everyone has someone to retaliate against and as long as that excuse is used for revenge, revenge will continue on all sides.

movie zombie
 
MZ and TroutMaskReplica (OK, I couldn''t resist the Captain Beefheart analogy),

God only knows we need some leaders, from whatever and wherever. Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or how about we invent some new labels. How about we refuse to stereotype people by their faith or political persuasion. How about we stereotype people by their actions?

Let me give you a few examples:

When Yassir Arrafat declares he is working for the Palestinian cause, but is skimming funds off to his own family, we kick him to the curb.

When Dubya., Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfowitz, Cheney, etc. tell us they are fighting terrorism, but it is clear they are just enriching themselves and their cronies, we kick them to the curb.

When Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, Bush, Blair, Howard or any other dictator declares that they are thinking of our "security" let us kick them to the curb.

Time to wake up. really. amerika, time to show a pulse.
 
Date: 3/21/2006 12:22:13 AM
Author: movie zombie
yes, the movie MUNICH certainly makes it very clear that the jewish community had no qualms re killing others.....

That movie (which I have not seen) is fiction. The book Striking Back is far more factual. I am not arguing that the Israelis have qualms about killing others (although I believe that many of them do). I am saying that Hollywood cannot be allowed to write history.

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while the movie is fiction, the israeli hit squad [Mossad] was/is not. a point i wanted to make is that in the movie Munich, the main character goes along with being a part of the vengenance w/o thinking of consequences....its not until members of his hit squad get hit in return and things escalate to where he believes his very own family is threatened that he gets the connection that dit for dat goes on and on and on and on. i don''t think the movie was made in an effort to write history as much as it was made as a vehicle to explore consequences of actions. the basic premise from which the movie springs is that 1-the israel olympic team was massacred and 2-that israel authorized retaliation hits and sent a squad out to accomplish those hits. that is fact, not fiction.

more books:

Vengeance: The True Story Of An Israeli Counter-Terrorist Team by George Jonas [this book has been accused of being fraudulent]
One Day In September: The Full Story Of The 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre And The Israeli Revenge Operation "Wrath Of God" by Simon Reeve
Massacre In Munich: The Manhunt For The Killers Behind The 1972 Olympics by Michael Bar Bar-Zohar
Gideon''s Spies: The Secret History Of The Mossad (Updated Edition) by Gordon Thomas The Quest For The Red Prince: Israel''s Relentless Manhunt For One Of The World''s Deadliest And Most Wanted Arab Terrorists by Michael Bar Bar-Zohar
It is my understanding that the Mossad agents were very well-trained and were all hand-picked men who couldn''t wait to strike back at the terrorists who had brutally murdered Israeli athletes at Munich. Nor has it been established that the Mossad agents who went after the Black September terrorists ever experienced any crisis of conscience because they believed that they were bringing these terrorists to justice and by eliminating the Black September terrorists who murdered Israel''s athletes they were protecting Israel from future terrorist attacks. the movie, however, takes a turn from recorded history by exploring a fictional character who ends up having some second thoughts.

writing history? no, i think not. using history as a spring board to explore revenge? yes.

movie zombie
 
actions do indeed speak louder than words. i could only hope that US media could be as risk taking as Al Jazeera in their reporting.

richard, its not sterotyping to call a thief a thief, a liar a liar, a murder a murder, etc.: they are what they are in each instance that you''ve mentioned.

movie zombie
 
Date: 3/21/2006 10:03:50 PM
Author: movie zombie
while the movie is fiction, the israeli hit squad [Mossad] was/is not.

Actually, it is. There was not one hit squad, as depicted in "Munich", but many.

Their emotions on carrying out these missions? I do not know that. I am not about to say that any of the Caesarea agents felt remorse. So I may not be disagreeing with you on much, but I do not like to hear history changed by Hollywood and then accepted as absolute truth.

Try reading Striking Back. I am aware of the other books.



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Date: 3/22/2006 3:56:32 AM
Author: AGBF


I do not like to hear history changed by Hollywood and then accepted as absolute truth.



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hollywood makes movies re many historic events and books are written about many historic events. it is a fact that artistic license may be taken in all instances. in no way has Spielberg said that his movie is a ''historic truth'' but the fact remains that it is based on historic events. it is up to the individual to educate his/herself as to the ''truth''. if nothing else, MUNICH opens peoples eyes to an event and hopefully will get them to look into it more. believe it or not, there are people that don''t even know about it!. the movie follows only one group that is sent out....it is towards the end that the main character becomes aware that there were other groups sent out.

much as one shouldn''t judge a book by its cover, i''d suggest viewing the movie. be warned, however, that the hardest part of viewing the movie is the depiction of the kidnapping and murders. spielberg does not shy away from the horror of it.

movie zombie
 
Date: 3/22/2006 12:40:26 PM
Author: movie zombie
hollywood makes movies re many historic events and books are written about many historic events. it is a fact that artistic license may be taken in all instances. in no way has Spielberg said that his movie is a ''historic truth'' but the fact remains that it is based on historic events. it is up to the individual to educate his/herself as to the ''truth''.

Agreed. I love, "The Lion in Winter", but its resemblance to reality is fair and far off. When I am discussing an historic event, I would prefer to refer to history than to the artistic rendering of it. When I am discussing a movie, however, I would do no more than note the amount of its historical accuracy while weighing it on its own merits.



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so i''ll reword my original statement [yes, the movie MUNICH certainly makes it very clear that the jewish community had no qualms re killing others] to read as follows: yes, the movie MUNICH certainly makes it very clear in its depiction of historical events that the jewish community had no qualms re killing others as written about but not limited to the following books: Striking Back, Vengeance: The True Story Of An Israeli Counter-Terrorist Team, One Day In September: The Full Story Of The 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre And The Israeli Revenge Operation "Wrath Of God" , Massacre In Munich: The Manhunt For The Killers Behind The 1972 Olympics , Gideon''s Spies: The Secret History Of The Mossad (Updated Edition) , The Quest For The Red Prince: Israel''s Relentless Manhunt For One Of The World''s Deadliest And Most Wanted Arab Terrorists; in no way is this statement meant to imply that this movie or any other movie is historically accurate although based on historic incidents; however, it has been established in these books and other writings that Israeli hit squads did indeed exist and did indeed murder in retaliation for the 1972 Olympic murders. further, the undersigned hereby agrees that movies are movies, books are books, and history is written by the victors leaving the defeated with their own [often unrecorded or unread] version of the same events.

done and moving on.....got books to read!

movie zombie
 
I''m sitting here with a big smile that I didn''t have before I opened this thread. Thanks for that, MZ.

Deb
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