Hest88
Ideal_Rock
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I thought I had the perfect ring until I came across HCA
- Thread starter fiftysevenfacets
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fiftysevenfacets
Rough_Rock
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Greetings all,
An example was brought to this thread about ingredients to a dinner dish, I think it a perfect analoyg....here''s my problem, I have never had this dish before and I want to know what ingredients should be used to cook this dish in order to determine if it will be a good dish or not.....so I ask around and many tell me different recipe''s for this dish but some people say you need 2 spoons of salt and 1 spoon of lemon while somone else tells me its 1 spoon of salt and 2 spoons of lemon. I get that, its all preference after that....but is there a recipe that everyone can agree on, like maybe a happy medium? (1 1/2 salt and 1/2 lemon)?. My fear is buying a diamond that is dead and not knowing it, or buying a diamond without life and not knowing it....
How do I, go from an excellent cut in a particular diamond to it having poor brilliance, poor scintilation, poor fire? How do I reconcile that when difference of opinion exists in terminology? what chance do I have of making the right pick?
An example was brought to this thread about ingredients to a dinner dish, I think it a perfect analoyg....here''s my problem, I have never had this dish before and I want to know what ingredients should be used to cook this dish in order to determine if it will be a good dish or not.....so I ask around and many tell me different recipe''s for this dish but some people say you need 2 spoons of salt and 1 spoon of lemon while somone else tells me its 1 spoon of salt and 2 spoons of lemon. I get that, its all preference after that....but is there a recipe that everyone can agree on, like maybe a happy medium? (1 1/2 salt and 1/2 lemon)?. My fear is buying a diamond that is dead and not knowing it, or buying a diamond without life and not knowing it....
How do I, go from an excellent cut in a particular diamond to it having poor brilliance, poor scintilation, poor fire? How do I reconcile that when difference of opinion exists in terminology? what chance do I have of making the right pick?
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I am really glad the dinner analogy was helpful! I do understand exactly what you are saying and here is what I suggest. If you have a Jareds near you, as an exercise go and look at their AGS0 Peerless stones. Also if there is a Hearts on Fire dealer in your area, go and view some of theirs too. This will give you a good idea of how well cut diamonds can look.Date: 11/12/2009 10:12:12 AM
Author: fiftysevenfacets
Greetings all,
An example was brought to this thread about ingredients to a dinner dish, I think it a perfect analoyg....here's my problem, I have never had this dish before and I want to know what ingredients should be used to cook this dish in order to determine if it will be a good dish or not.....so I ask around and many tell me different recipe's for this dish but some people say you need 2 spoons of salt and 1 spoon of lemon while somone else tells me its 1 spoon of salt and 2 spoons of lemon. I get that, its all preference after that....but is there a recipe that everyone can agree on, like maybe a happy medium? (1 1/2 salt and 1/2 lemon)?. My fear is buying a diamond that is dead and not knowing it, or buying a diamond without life and not knowing it....
How do I, go from an excellent cut in a particular diamond to it having poor brilliance, poor scintilation, poor fire? How do I reconcile that when difference of opinion exists in terminology? what chance do I have of making the right pick?
Also don't worry, we won't let you buy a bad diamond so that isn't going to happen! If you prefer to buy from a store, report back with all the info from the grading reports etc so we can advise you and also make sure you have a good return policy to give you time to inspect the diamond yourself. I would also suggest initially focusing on AGS0 cut grade and GIA Excellent graded diamonds, then report back here with all the info if you are buying from a store so we can help you. Especially with AGS0 graded diamonds, these should give you the basic ' well flavoured dish' to begin with and GIA Excellent which score between 1 and 2 on theHolloway Cut Advisor initially.
sparxs111
Shiny_Rock
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I guess it basically comes down to this as this post has taken a few side trips. If you are sold on ONLY buying a diamond from a store bring back all the stats from the certs and we''ll help you weed out the good from the bad. HOwever, this forum has great vendors that sell quality stones for usually MUCH CHEAPER than a store you walk into. Higher quality and cheaper in my mind is the way to go. PLaces like Whiteflash have incredible return policies, warrantees, trade-up policies, and just amazing customer service. They are one store where you can rely on what they say is what it is. This is just an example. others like James Allen, and many more are also great.
I was nervous buying my engagement ring online at first, but after receiving the product at approx 43% less than a mall store for higher quality...(allowing me to get a larger stone with better colour and cut) was amazing. I also had the issue of buying in the states when I am from Canada and even with customs it was still the right way to go...FOR ME!!.
Now again, if you are sold on walking into a store, bring the details back, just reallize that not all store employees are as knowledgeable as they should be and all have different opinions on what is important when buying a stone. I personally wouldn''t count out internet buying due to the quality and price that you can get...but that is only a personal opinion.
good luck in your search!!!!
I was nervous buying my engagement ring online at first, but after receiving the product at approx 43% less than a mall store for higher quality...(allowing me to get a larger stone with better colour and cut) was amazing. I also had the issue of buying in the states when I am from Canada and even with customs it was still the right way to go...FOR ME!!.
Now again, if you are sold on walking into a store, bring the details back, just reallize that not all store employees are as knowledgeable as they should be and all have different opinions on what is important when buying a stone. I personally wouldn''t count out internet buying due to the quality and price that you can get...but that is only a personal opinion.
good luck in your search!!!!
Also read this article; it might surprise you:
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/GIAExAGSIdeal/
Essentially, they compare a GIA excellent that scores a 3.8 on the HCA with a AGS Ideal that scores that scores a 1 on the HCA and despite the fact that all the technology points to the fact that the AGS Ideal would be preferred, when asking people to give their opinions, they all chose the GIA excellent!
Many people tell you not to trust your eyeballs since they're not well-trained, which certainly is a logical argument. I felt the same way as I cannot get past the scientific results of angles, percentages, etc., so I was looking for the best cut diamond from a mathematical/scientific standpoint. I decided to go to a GIA-certified gemologist with over 20 yrs experience in the most well-respected lab in the state (and it's not Wyoming...I live in one of the five largest cities in the US). They don't sell anything; the set prices for trade shows and are known for being the best by all the jewelers around. I brought in two diamonds (a 1.38 ct that scores a 0.7 on the HCA, but is rated as VG cut by GIA and a 1.35 ct ex cut GIA stone that scores a 3.8 on the HCA - same as the above study). I kept trying to convince the gemologist that the angles and depth of the 1.38 ct were more ideal for light refraction etc than the 1.35 ct one, which has a (according to standards on this site) a "steep" 41.4 degree pavilion angle. She didn't know where I got each stone and didn't voice her preference of one of the other. She said, "What are you? An engineer?" I replied, "Yeah." She tried to convince me that in the end the mathematical and scientific formulas don't matter; all that matters is what looks the best to me. Again, she didn't say which one she preferred at all and didn't influence me. Then, we did a blind test.
We were in relatively poor lighting conditions in the office/lab and she put both diamonds behind her back without knowing which was which, mixing them up behind her back and then putting them in front of me. Then I'd have to quickly say which one I liked more. I couldn't tell them apart with the naked eye and neither could she. So, after I picked one, she looked at it under the microscope to record which one I picked. We did this three times, and I picked the same one every time. The difference was negligible, but one perhaps sparkled a bit more. I even thought I chose the other one the second time, but apparently I did not. After that, she said she would have chosen the same one as me. I ended up choosing the so-called "inferior" 1.35 ct excellent cut that scored a 3.8 on the HCA. Now, I realize that the HCA is NOT intended as a selection tool, but rather an elimination tool. Well, when looking online, anything above 2, I'd eliminate immediately. And I would have not found this stone.
It was and is still hard for me to get past the fact that I chose the 1.35 ct one three times in a row. I practically tried to pick the 1.38 ct one since I wanted to re-affirm my mathematical belief that it performs "better." And it took some convincing on her part that I was making the right decision. She did say, however, that if a great cut was of the utmost importance then I should look at a AGS Ideal stone. So, it's certainly probable that my stone still isn't near a "perfect" cut. So what? I looked at some AGS0 stones and honestly couldn't tell the difference between them (assuming similar color and clarity) and mine side-by-side. Again, perhaps my eyes aren't good enough...
The GIA came up with its cut ratings not based on science, but on people's opinions on surveys. And that has proved controversial. But are you going to go up to people telling them how great the pavilion angle is of your diamond? No! They'll just based their opinion on how much it sparkles. It's certainly possible that people will tell me, well, you could have a gotten an even better diamond, but at the end of the day, do what makes you feel happy. I feel quite happy with my choice of a GIA excellent that scored a 3.8 on the HCA over the 0.7 HCA diamond. They were priced within $50 of each other, by the way. I ended up getting the 1.35 ct diamond appraised, and it appraised for more than 40% of what I paid for it!
This story is in no way meant to say that people on this site don't know what they're talking about. They clearly do and their advice and information was very helpful to me. I am certainly not a diamond expert and most on here know FAR FAR more than me. I think you should take everybody's opinion her into consideration. People will probably say to me that I could have gotten an even better diamond. But, at the end of the day, it's what about makes YOU happy and what your eyes tell you. Not what some mathematical formula does. To see this light, I had to go to an experienced gemologist and do a blind study. I'd suggest you compare stones side-by-side and do this experiment yourself.
Good luck!
http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/NewCutGrading/GIAExAGSIdeal/
Essentially, they compare a GIA excellent that scores a 3.8 on the HCA with a AGS Ideal that scores that scores a 1 on the HCA and despite the fact that all the technology points to the fact that the AGS Ideal would be preferred, when asking people to give their opinions, they all chose the GIA excellent!
Many people tell you not to trust your eyeballs since they're not well-trained, which certainly is a logical argument. I felt the same way as I cannot get past the scientific results of angles, percentages, etc., so I was looking for the best cut diamond from a mathematical/scientific standpoint. I decided to go to a GIA-certified gemologist with over 20 yrs experience in the most well-respected lab in the state (and it's not Wyoming...I live in one of the five largest cities in the US). They don't sell anything; the set prices for trade shows and are known for being the best by all the jewelers around. I brought in two diamonds (a 1.38 ct that scores a 0.7 on the HCA, but is rated as VG cut by GIA and a 1.35 ct ex cut GIA stone that scores a 3.8 on the HCA - same as the above study). I kept trying to convince the gemologist that the angles and depth of the 1.38 ct were more ideal for light refraction etc than the 1.35 ct one, which has a (according to standards on this site) a "steep" 41.4 degree pavilion angle. She didn't know where I got each stone and didn't voice her preference of one of the other. She said, "What are you? An engineer?" I replied, "Yeah." She tried to convince me that in the end the mathematical and scientific formulas don't matter; all that matters is what looks the best to me. Again, she didn't say which one she preferred at all and didn't influence me. Then, we did a blind test.
We were in relatively poor lighting conditions in the office/lab and she put both diamonds behind her back without knowing which was which, mixing them up behind her back and then putting them in front of me. Then I'd have to quickly say which one I liked more. I couldn't tell them apart with the naked eye and neither could she. So, after I picked one, she looked at it under the microscope to record which one I picked. We did this three times, and I picked the same one every time. The difference was negligible, but one perhaps sparkled a bit more. I even thought I chose the other one the second time, but apparently I did not. After that, she said she would have chosen the same one as me. I ended up choosing the so-called "inferior" 1.35 ct excellent cut that scored a 3.8 on the HCA. Now, I realize that the HCA is NOT intended as a selection tool, but rather an elimination tool. Well, when looking online, anything above 2, I'd eliminate immediately. And I would have not found this stone.
It was and is still hard for me to get past the fact that I chose the 1.35 ct one three times in a row. I practically tried to pick the 1.38 ct one since I wanted to re-affirm my mathematical belief that it performs "better." And it took some convincing on her part that I was making the right decision. She did say, however, that if a great cut was of the utmost importance then I should look at a AGS Ideal stone. So, it's certainly probable that my stone still isn't near a "perfect" cut. So what? I looked at some AGS0 stones and honestly couldn't tell the difference between them (assuming similar color and clarity) and mine side-by-side. Again, perhaps my eyes aren't good enough...
The GIA came up with its cut ratings not based on science, but on people's opinions on surveys. And that has proved controversial. But are you going to go up to people telling them how great the pavilion angle is of your diamond? No! They'll just based their opinion on how much it sparkles. It's certainly possible that people will tell me, well, you could have a gotten an even better diamond, but at the end of the day, do what makes you feel happy. I feel quite happy with my choice of a GIA excellent that scored a 3.8 on the HCA over the 0.7 HCA diamond. They were priced within $50 of each other, by the way. I ended up getting the 1.35 ct diamond appraised, and it appraised for more than 40% of what I paid for it!
This story is in no way meant to say that people on this site don't know what they're talking about. They clearly do and their advice and information was very helpful to me. I am certainly not a diamond expert and most on here know FAR FAR more than me. I think you should take everybody's opinion her into consideration. People will probably say to me that I could have gotten an even better diamond. But, at the end of the day, it's what about makes YOU happy and what your eyes tell you. Not what some mathematical formula does. To see this light, I had to go to an experienced gemologist and do a blind study. I'd suggest you compare stones side-by-side and do this experiment yourself.
Good luck!
fiftysevenfacets
Rough_Rock
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Hi E5116
Just one comment on your excellent exposition of the GIA/AGS cut grading tutorials from GOG.
GoG also point out that GIA spent 15 years researching , and that the first 5 of those were in fact spent using ray tracing techniques. I don''t know (being a newbie also) but I assume that give them a scientific framework to build upon with the observation testing done subsequently ( I understand 70000 observations of 3000 stones)
Bob
Just one comment on your excellent exposition of the GIA/AGS cut grading tutorials from GOG.
GoG also point out that GIA spent 15 years researching , and that the first 5 of those were in fact spent using ray tracing techniques. I don''t know (being a newbie also) but I assume that give them a scientific framework to build upon with the observation testing done subsequently ( I understand 70000 observations of 3000 stones)
Bob
fiftysevenfacets
Rough_Rock
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Thank you all for responding,
e5116- I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread and going through your own experience, I think you understand my frustration and my fear. No one should care that I am spending money that took years of sweat, blood and tears to accumulate, what''s in it for them, I get that.
I do have one question for you, you said the diamond with the higher HCA is the one you picked, do u think you would''ve picked the same had the HCA even been worse?
e5116- I want to thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread and going through your own experience, I think you understand my frustration and my fear. No one should care that I am spending money that took years of sweat, blood and tears to accumulate, what''s in it for them, I get that.
I do have one question for you, you said the diamond with the higher HCA is the one you picked, do u think you would''ve picked the same had the HCA even been worse?
No problem. Glad I could share a similar experience.
Ha, that's an interesting question. I had another diamond that piqued my interest greatly that scored an even worse 4.4 on the HCA scale (with a 41.6 degree pav angle), but was also graded GIA excellent. I decided against it because I wasn't a huge fan of the store or the setting there. I have no idea what the results would have been had I done the blind experiment with a diamond that had an even worse HCA...Honestly, you should do what makes you feel happy and clears your mind. Somebody's signature on this message board says "it's a lot harder to find a mind-clean diamond than a physically clean one" or something like, and that definitely holds true in my circumstance. If you're going to never be able to get past the fact that your GIA excellent stone (which you love in person after doing side-by-side comparisons) scored a 4.2 or whatever on the HCA scale, then you shouldn't get it. If you can get past that, then I personally would have no problem getting it despite what the science and math says. But again, you have to evaluate this for yourself. I honestly would NOT have been able to get past it without my visit to the gemologist, who is far more of an expert than I am. The stone was rated GIA excellent for a reason; it's not a bad cut and people like it based on results of thousands of surveys. Many here argue it's too broad of a category, which may be true, but others have differing opinions and wouldn't think twice about the proportions in a GIA excellent stone. Again, it's all about you and what makes you happy. This is all my personal opinion, of course, since you asked for it. I wish there was a PM system on this board, but it doesn't seem to exist.
In any event, compare, ignore the math, and enjoy! And don't live with any regrets!
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Such great posts e5116
Your experiences really shows actual results of some of the things I have been saying here.
If someone purchased a stone based on visual characteristics, and gets told the stone is not so great by people who are not actually looking at it, a sad situation can occur.
What was a joyous purchase gets turned into a frustrating situation.
It''s so important to stress that neither side is wrong- there''s simply different ways to judge a diamond''s cut.
Your experiences really shows actual results of some of the things I have been saying here.
If someone purchased a stone based on visual characteristics, and gets told the stone is not so great by people who are not actually looking at it, a sad situation can occur.
What was a joyous purchase gets turned into a frustrating situation.
It''s so important to stress that neither side is wrong- there''s simply different ways to judge a diamond''s cut.
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Oops looks like l missed saving my comment!!
What I meant to add was :-
Kenny I think your analogy is not a good one -
I can think of 2 examples
Larry Ellison, founder and CEO Oracle, and the other guy is even more well known - his name is Bill Gates.
I believe both these guys dropped out at some point in their formal education.
It shows that one can have 'success' in life, without taling a preconceived path to achieve it ( although I grant a degree makes it more probable).
Moral
We shouldn't make absolute judgement on something based on perceived wisdom - or even science, where there is empirical evidence to the contrary (or at least doubt) - or were 70000 GIA observations wrong ( I know that some people will suggest that the GIA study was flawed or even skewed in favour of the trade, but that's a different subject, which I'm not qualified to have an opinion on)
fiftysevenfacets
Rough_Rock
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Hello all,
Somone once said "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder", nothing I believe holds more true than a diamond. I went to a store that held jewellery from Bvlgari, Damiani, LucaCarati, Pianegonda, Zantomio, Montblanc ect...some very nice and beautifull pieces. It was a family run business and they were very nice, I sat down with the owners son and we looked at diamonds, I explained to him my frustrations about finding a diamond and coming on this website and finding the HCA score that scored it poorly or as it was presented to me as "Fair".....he said forget about all that and lets start from scratch, he started to pull diamonds from his collections, he said forget about the , cut, color, carat, clarity...these mean nothing to you....we started from the bottom of the scale and he made me look at each diamond and I had to draw in a circle were the inclusions were, and then made me compare it to a D master stone and guess how off it was, then drop it between my fingers and made me guess what size it was....we did this for about an hour....he asked me not to ask questions and just observe the diamond.....It was a very intersting experience and I learned a lot....but this is what I realized, they are all beautiful diamonds and why? because I saw them all! I can appreciate them all, even with their flaws...its still beautiful......he then asked me to pick three diamonds I liked and then he brought in his laptop and ran the HCA with me, the one I liked the most scored 4.8 while the second choice scored 1.8 and the third was 3.5 he goes to me afterwards, I have one question for you, "why did you pick the ugliest diamond?", I said "I didn''t"..........he smiled at me.......I''m so much more at ease....I think if I stick to the basics, a good certificate, a reliable and well reputable store, I compare diamonds from the inventory and select the one that speaks the most to me....I''ll be fine.....for the money I spent could I have found a better diamond based on this website? the answer is "100% yes".....I don''t discredit the science behind the other tools suggested in this website, I''m not in the industry and I have no reason or motivation to refute it. My only concern is that I will spend a lot of money for a "dud".
I began this thread with a concern about GIA vs HCA.....I have come to the realization that this is a great site, it certainly opened my eyes to the world of that little sparkly object....and in the end of the day no one person has it right, not GIA, not HCA , not anyone......but I guess the purpose of all those who provide their input is to educate....so for that I''m greatful regardless of their motive and purpose.....
P.S I have found the perfect recipe.........Mind, Heart and Eyes......
Somone once said "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder", nothing I believe holds more true than a diamond. I went to a store that held jewellery from Bvlgari, Damiani, LucaCarati, Pianegonda, Zantomio, Montblanc ect...some very nice and beautifull pieces. It was a family run business and they were very nice, I sat down with the owners son and we looked at diamonds, I explained to him my frustrations about finding a diamond and coming on this website and finding the HCA score that scored it poorly or as it was presented to me as "Fair".....he said forget about all that and lets start from scratch, he started to pull diamonds from his collections, he said forget about the , cut, color, carat, clarity...these mean nothing to you....we started from the bottom of the scale and he made me look at each diamond and I had to draw in a circle were the inclusions were, and then made me compare it to a D master stone and guess how off it was, then drop it between my fingers and made me guess what size it was....we did this for about an hour....he asked me not to ask questions and just observe the diamond.....It was a very intersting experience and I learned a lot....but this is what I realized, they are all beautiful diamonds and why? because I saw them all! I can appreciate them all, even with their flaws...its still beautiful......he then asked me to pick three diamonds I liked and then he brought in his laptop and ran the HCA with me, the one I liked the most scored 4.8 while the second choice scored 1.8 and the third was 3.5 he goes to me afterwards, I have one question for you, "why did you pick the ugliest diamond?", I said "I didn''t"..........he smiled at me.......I''m so much more at ease....I think if I stick to the basics, a good certificate, a reliable and well reputable store, I compare diamonds from the inventory and select the one that speaks the most to me....I''ll be fine.....for the money I spent could I have found a better diamond based on this website? the answer is "100% yes".....I don''t discredit the science behind the other tools suggested in this website, I''m not in the industry and I have no reason or motivation to refute it. My only concern is that I will spend a lot of money for a "dud".
I began this thread with a concern about GIA vs HCA.....I have come to the realization that this is a great site, it certainly opened my eyes to the world of that little sparkly object....and in the end of the day no one person has it right, not GIA, not HCA , not anyone......but I guess the purpose of all those who provide their input is to educate....so for that I''m greatful regardless of their motive and purpose.....
P.S I have found the perfect recipe.........Mind, Heart and Eyes......
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Really great thread.
Fiftyseven thank you so very much for sharing your experiences!
BobR- thank you for your comments- helping to keep things in perspective.
DF- to answer your question, use all the tools you want!
Where confusion sets in is when there are conflicting results - the eye says one thing, the tools say another.
This isn''t because either is "wrong"- but maybe the tools were designed to achieve a goal that does not match what someone''s eye wants to see.
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